Possible Debate inspired by Desperate Housewives.

[snoopy]

Sorry - was not meant to be insulting at all. I guess I just can't fathom someone wanting to work if they didn't have to. Not that I'm lazy and don't want to work. I will when the kids are older. I just prefer being the one to raise them. I enjoy it.

Jennifer...I am a working parent, I've always worked at least part time since having kids, and I can assure you NO ONE is raising my kids but me.

I'm sure you didn't mean it to sound condescending...I've read your posts and you seem like a nice person and a good mom....just a reminder, not all choices are made from necessity. Some of us feel that we are setting good examples for our children by going outside the home to work. My boys have had a role model in both me and their father...we've always encouraged them to find work they love that will sustain them through life, even after their families are raised.

 

[snoopy]

Isn't it really all about balance? What I find more upsetting is that on a whole, as a society, we are pushed to the max and don't seem to be able to have balance in our lives, whether it be to get a hair cut or to take a kid to their first day of school.

What I like seeing are companies who offer PTO (paid time off) -- that you can take for whatever you want. In reality, I think as a mom, I would've asked for the day as a vacation day/PTO for the am, if I wanted to be at the first day of school.

Life is about making choices between our conflicting priorities. Personally, it makes no difference to me why someone may be missing work. It depends on the role I am playing. If they still get the expected results at work, that's all I need to know.

Really well said! It is all about balance, something all employees are looking for, not just working parents.

 

[TnKrBeLlA012]

My mom was a boss in a hospital for years. She was the exception to the rule. She was a great boss but also a great person. She was very understanding when a mother called into work because of her sick child. My mom also new that,that same person would come to work sick if she had to so she did not have to call in. Parent's try to do what is best for their kids while still trying to make a living. It is not easy because today it takes two incomes to survive. My mom does not remember many mom's abusing the system. I work parttime. I do try to schedule events around my job. But life happens. That is why more concessions should be made for working moms. I know that as the mom I always seem to have to handle babysitting problems, unexpected doctor visits, ect. What do Parent's do???? I hope what is best for the child. I do remeber when I had a girl work for me who had no kids. She always found it a problem when people below her received personal calls (from kids),was not able to fill a shift for her, called in for a sick child. She would go on and on about priorities. Then an unexpected life changing event happened. She was having a baby. Let me tell you she had a different view on what was a priority. Funny how that happens.

 

[m&m's mom]

Sorry - was not meant to be insulting at all. I guess I just can't fathom someone wanting to work if they didn't have to. Not that I'm lazy and don't want to work. I will when the kids are older. I just prefer being the one to raise them. I enjoy it.

I was insulted the goofygal thought it was great her mom wasn't a SAHM. What is wrong with wanting to be a SAHM? I find it a privlege to stay home - not a burden

I went to college for a very long time and worked very hard to get where I am today. I am also very lucky that I have a DH that is very supportive and actually prefers a working spouse. We work in a similar field and use each others knowledge quite a bit in our work. We love learning things from each other and gaining new insight and ideas of how to handle work situations. We both find it very rewarding to share our day w/ each other. When I was home on maternity leave for 12 weeks I missed that.
I also come from a long line of strong, working women. My great Aunts were college professors 80 years ago. All of my Aunts and female cousins work as well. That is the type of women I admired and wanted to be growing up.
So yes, I agree w/ Goofygal that I loved having a working Mom.
You should not be insulted as I am not insulted you choose not have a job.

 

[Jennifer S]

Jennifer...I am a working parent, I've always worked at least part time since having kids, and I can assure you NO ONE is raising my kids but me.

I'm sure you didn't mean it to sound condescending...I've read your posts and you seem like a nice person and a good mom....just a reminder, not all choices are made from necessity. Some of us feel that we are setting good examples for our children by going outside the home to work. My boys have had a role model in both me and my father...we've always encouraged them to find work they love that will sustain them through life, even after their families are raised.

I guess I used a poor choice of words. I'm sorry for that. I just got my feathers ruffled when GG said she thought it was great her mom wasnt a SAHM. To me that was insulting. I think it's great to have balance and to be a good role model for your kids. I'd love to have something part time but it doesn't work w/ our families schedule. Maybe next year when the youngest goes into first grade.

Where we live it's the norm to stay home. I really don't have any friends that work full time. Maybe that's why it so foreign to me. Thank you for reminding me.

Thanks for the kind words too. I try to never cause waves on the dis - it's not my personality.

 

[Jennifer S]

I went to college for a very long time and worked very hard to get where I am today. I am also very lucky that I have a DH that is very supportive and actually prefers a working spouse. We work in a similar field and use each others knowledge quite a bit in our work. We love learning things from each other and gaining new insight and ideas of how to handle work situations. We both find it very rewarding to share our day w/ each other. When I was home on maternity leave for 12 weeks I missed that.
I also come from a long line of strong, working women. My great Aunts were college professors 80 years ago. All of my Aunts and female cousins work as well. That is the type of women I admired and wanted to be growing up.
So yes, I agree w/ Goofygal that I loved having a working Mom.
You should not be insulted as I am not insulted you choose not have a job.

I went to college too and sometimes people think it's a waste I'm not using my degree. I did before kids and I will again;.. To each his own I guess. Both DH and I had SAHM's and my DH likes that I stay home.

Sorry - back to your normally scheduled thread

 

[goofygirl]

Just curious. Why do you think that's great?

It's great that she worked hard to support you instead of going on welfare but if she had the choice to stay home wouldn't you rather of had her home instead of having to have someone else watch you?

I thought it was great (and still think its great) because she showed me that you don't have to be dependent on a man or the welfare system. Also, when she came home from her job and talked about it, this gave me insight into the working world at a young age, and this helped me grow as a person. While she worked, my grandmother watched me. Its not like she left me with a stranger, if that's what you're thinking. I was quite fine with this, and I had plenty of "Mommy and me" time when she came home from work.

Its sad that you find the fact that I'm proud of my WOTH mom "insulting." I am thinking that if you were 100% secure with yourself with being a SAHM, you wouldn't be so quick as to feel insulted.

 

[goofygirl]

Uhhh, I think everyone knows that GG. Besides, who has EVER wanted to change you? You are the one always coming out of the woodwork to spout your "childless by choice" rhetoric.....the rest of us could care less whether you like children or not.

"Coming out of the woodwork?" Are you kidding me??
I've been on this board as long as you and I post daily on many threads. I'm hardly an obscure lurker who "comes out of the woodwork" here.

Who has wanted to change me? Well, it was implied that I should be "more sympathetic" to those with kids, right? That's a change, is it not?
"Spouting my childless by choice rhetoric" would be like saying that you are spouting your WOTH rhetoric. I was simply expressing my views just as you express yours. Its only because I am of the childless by choice minority that you see my expression as a negative thing.


What I learned here is that some think I am "Spouting childless by choice rhetoric", and that some think the childless by choice always "care about money and always have something to prove."

Substitute the words "childless by choice" with "black(s)" "gay(s)", "Hispanic(s)" , etc in those 2 pharses.

You would never be able to get away with that.

The childless by choice is one of the few minorities that its "okay" to bash.

 

[snoopy]

Uhhh, you don't represent the "chidless by choice" population, GG. I don't have a problem with anyone who has chosen not to have children, even you. One of my best friends is "childless by choice".....I think she is one of the greatest people I know. She doesn't feel the need to crash parenting threads to talk about how much she hates kids. She actually DOESN'T hate kids, nor do most people who choose not to have them, she just didn't want any of her own. You act as though you represent people who have chosen to not have children, and I hate to tell you, but you don't.

And for someone who hates kids so much, yes, you do come out of the woodwork for anything that is child related so you can tell everyone how much better you are because you are "childless by choice". I've never met anyone who has felt the need to defend her choices more than you do, but then agian, I remember back in the day when you were questioning that choice on an open forum. Perhaps you regret the road not taken?

 

[Wishing on a star]

Ummmmm,

So now we have all kinds of women here....

'Working Moms'
'SAHMs'
'Childless by Choice'
etc... etc.... etc...

And, every group here hissing and clawing!!!!

We have met the enemy, and he is US!!!!!

 

[va32h]

I guess I just can't fathom someone wanting to work if they didn't have to. Not that I'm lazy and don't want to work. I will when the kids are older. I just prefer being the one to raise them. I enjoy it.

I enjoy raising my kids too, but I can certainly fathom a life in addition to my children.

Women, particularly women at home, become very defined by their roles as mothers. To lots of people, I am known only as "Natalie's Mom".

I was a person with interests and ideas before I had children; I still am. To work; to contribute to my family's income, to be acknowledged for my skills and talents, to be challenged and to have new experiences - these are many reasons I can "fathom" to want to go to work.

Motherhood is very rewarding in itself of course. I am very happy to have the years I have had at home. But there several aspects of my personality that mothering alone does not nurture. Of course, neither does working...which is why I advocate a full rich life for everyone, with work, hobbies, friends, and family life all contributing to our sum happiness.

And yes, I am happy to be raising my children "myself". And yet - I have two daughters. I tell them they can grow up to be whatever they want. But by staying home, I feel I am subtly saying "be whatever you want, until you have children".

I have been very fortunate to have mostly forward-thinking employers, who felt I was a valuable enough employee to compromise with me. With my first daughter, I was able to bring her to work with me. She had a nursery adjacent to my office, and a wonderful college student who would play with her and take her for walks when I needed to work un-interrupted.

I have also held jobs where I worked nights and weekends (so my husband could watch the children) and telecommuted.

Currently, I run my own small business from home and have a part time job as well that is one or two weekends a month.

Sorry to hijack the thread, but something about the phrase "I can't fathom why anyone would want to work if they didn't have to" just got to me and I felt compelled to answer.

 

[goofygirl]

Uhhh, you don't represent the "chidless by choice" population, GG. I don't have a problem with anyone who has chosen not to have children, even you. One of my best friends is "childless by choice".....I think she is one of the greatest people I know. She doesn't feel the need to crash parenting threads to talk about how much she hates kids. She actually DOESN'T hate kids, nor do most people who choose not to have them, she just didn't want any of her own. You act as though you represent people who have chosen to not have children, and I hate to tell you, but you don't.

And for someone who hates kids so much, yes, you do come out of the woodwork for anything that is child related so you can tell everyone how much better you are because you are "childless by choice". I've never met anyone who has felt the need to defend her choices more than you do, but then agian, I remember back in the day when you were questioning that choice on an open forum. Perhaps you regret the road not taken?

Uhhh, you also don't represent ALL working mothers and all DISers. (You were speaking in terms of "we" in your other post.) Nor does your "childless friend" represent all childless.
And spare me anyway with that "One of my best friends is childless..." That's like when someone says "Some of my best friends are black..." after they've said something racist. It doesn't fly. Of course instead of admitting your own prejudice, you'd rather turn everything around and make everything *my* fault. Yes, you have painted me as a "parenting thread crasher", which couldn't be further than the truth. There's ton of parenting/pregnancy, etc related threads on today's and the past few days pages....do you see me on any of them? Nope. Just this one. And I'm here because I am a "Housewives" fan, and because I am a childless person in the workplace like Jolely Fisher's character. So what gives you the right to call this a "parenting thread" and imply that I shouldn't be here? The topic applies to ME TOO, not just parents. Its not all about you.

You just don't want me here because I'm childless by choice. That's what it boils down to- prejudice.

For the record, I've never questioned my choice, nor do I regret it.

 

[mbw12]

Sorry - was not meant to be insulting at all. I guess I just can't fathom someone wanting to work if they didn't have to. Not that I'm lazy and don't want to work. I will when the kids are older. I just prefer being the one to raise them. I enjoy it.

I was insulted the goofygal thought it was great her mom wasn't a SAHM. What is wrong with wanting to be a SAHM? I find it a privlege to stay home - not a burden

You can't fathom it??? Well, you don't need to....it is your choice to stay home...just as others can choose to work!!!! I am glad that you find it a privilege to stay home, but please don't act like that is the way everyone should feel.

I swear.....women should bond together...instead of making little groups like thais: stay at home, vs working, childless by choice vs. having kids. Etc etc etc. the judging of others is what bothers me in all of us. It is hard enough being a parent without having to be analyzed by others!!!

 

[mickeyfan2]

I swear.....women should bond together...instead of making little groups like thais: stay at home, vs working, childless by choice vs. having kids.

What about the "Kid not by choice" group?

 

[dis ms.]

What I learned here is that some think I am "Spouting childless by choice rhetoric", and that some think the childless by choice always "care about money and always have something to prove."

Substitute the words "childless by choice" with "black(s)" "gay(s)", "Hispanic(s)" , etc in those 2 pharses.

You would never be able to get away with that.

The childless by choice is one of the few minorities that its "okay" to bash.

I haven't read this entire thread, and I don't want to get into the whole SAHM v. childless by choice v. working mother debate.

My problem is with GG's statement above (I added the bold). "Childless by choice" is not even remotely comparable to "black", "gay", and/or "Hispanic". One is A CHOICE, the others aren't. I know someone will argue that homosexuals choose to be gay, but I don't agree with that. Now, I'm black and (although I'm proud of my ethnicity) I didn't choose to be black.

GG, you're certainly entitled to your choice, but lumping yourself in with minorities that didn't choose their minority status does not wash with me. I don't think it does anything for your credibility in this debate, either.

 

[kidshop]

And yes, I am happy to be raising my children "myself". And yet - I have two daughters. I tell them they can grow up to be whatever they want. But by staying home, I feel I am subtly saying "be whatever you want, until you have children".

I am a SAHM, but I do not feel that by staying home that I will be conveying that life stops when you have kids. I think my staying home with my kids tells them that they are valuable and worthwhile. Someone has to be there with the kids when they are small....why not the mother or the father? Maybe that sublty says, 'hey, you are special and your mom wants be here with you more than anywhere else at his time in your life'. I value the time as so fleeting, I don't want to miss a minute. I can't imagine staying home sending a bad message to kids.

 

[snoopy]

Uhhh, you also don't represent ALL working mothers and all DISers. (You were speaking in terms of "we" in your other post.) Nor does your "childless friend" represent all childless.
And spare me anyway with that "One of my best friends is childless..." That's like when someone says "Some of my best friends are black..." after they've said something racist. It doesn't fly. Of course instead of admitting your own prejudice, you'd rather turn everything around and make everything *my* fault. Yes, you have painted me as a "parenting thread crasher", which couldn't be further than the truth. There's ton of parenting/pregnancy, etc related threads on today's and the past few days pages....do you see me on any of them? Nope. Just this one. And I'm here because I am a "Housewives" fan, and because I am a childless person in the workplace like Jolely Fisher's character. So what gives you the right to call this a "parenting thread" and imply that I shouldn't be here? The topic applies to ME TOO, not just parents. Its not all about you.

You just don't want me here because I'm childless by choice. That's what it boils down to- prejudice.

For the record, I've never questioned my choice, nor do I regret it.

GG, you are entertaining if nothing else. You've been complaining about carpet creeps and breeders and such for about 5 years now. That is after you stepped down from your duties with the "Give Kids The World" campaign that you obviously got involved with because you thought it might score you some perks. And after you posted about being on the fence about having children, and how your mother was putting pressure on you. After those two events, you've been on and on with yourself, crashing parenting threads and insulting parents on the DIS for years now. So don't you DARE tell me I am the one who is prejudice! I am ALL ABOUT CHOICE and respecting OTHER PEOPLE'S choices....you on the other hand are not.

 

[offwegotoneverland]

I'm late weighing in (for a number of reasons) but here are my thoughts on Amanda's question.

Employers need to offer options to attract quality employee's in many cases those options include

Gym Memberships
Discounts (on products or services sold by the company)
vacation policy above norm in area
bonus structures
health care plans

It's becoming more frequent to see the following
flex time/family time programs
day care options.

That's a reaction to employee retention (ie if I can't get to Johnny's first day of school with this company I'm going to look around for one that does), if it's being offered or used by the company that's their choice (the same as gym memberships bonuses etc).

Is it fair to non parenting employee's? I guess it is if it's a policy that is fairly and clearly laid out and if there are other policies that are attracting you to the company (perhaps paying for educational courses in the field of employment). Not every employee uses every option and a smart employeer has a basket of choices to ensure a balanced approach to employee retention.

For the record (since it seems to matter) I'm a working mom with what most would define as a career role and am the primary bread earner in my family.

NOTHING has ever made me prouder than my DS saying he wants to do what I do when he grows up. (mind you he also likes the free cake he gets at events as well). The emphasis is added to show that each of us (stay at home, work part time, work full time or any other combination imaginable) are all trying to achieve the same thing raise children who understand and are proud of your choices as families.

 

[snoopy]

IGG, you're certainly entitled to your choice, but lumping yourself in with minorities that didn't choose their minority status does not wash with me. I don't think it does anything for your credibility in this debate, either.

This is GG's M.O. She thinks she can get away with referring to parents as "breeders" and saying all sorts of nasty things about kids and families in general, and when she is called on it she starts screaming about how she is discriminated against. She's been doing it for years now, ask anyone who has been around the DIS for that long......

 

[goofygirl]

I haven't read this entire thread, and I don't want to get into the whole SAHM v. childless by choice v. working mother debate.

My problem is with GG's statement above (I added the bold). "Childless by choice" is not even remotely comparable to "black", "gay", and/or "Hispanic". One is A CHOICE, the others aren't. I know someone will argue that homosexuals choose to be gay, but I don't agree with that. Now, I'm black and (although I'm proud of my ethnicity) I didn't choose to be black.

GG, you're certainly entitled to your choice, but lumping yourself in with minorities that didn't choose their minority status does not wash with me. I don't think it does anything for your credibility in this debate, either.

I disagree. A minority is a minority. Whether or not its a "choice" is irrelevant.

What about people of certain religions? Certainly they CHOSE to be part of that religion and CHOOSE to practice it. Are they "less of a minority" since its a CHOICE?
What if I told you I was born without the desire to have a child, just as a gay man is born without the desire to be with the opposite sex? Is that "better"? Beacuse...I always suspected I was born this way.