Pop Century: Yea or Nay?

[DancingBear]

I work with real estate developers, primarily office and retail, every day. Design and finish cost money. Look up at the ceiling tiles in your office. Are they standard 2'X3' rectangles, or more expensive squares? Are the acoustic tiles standard or of a particular, more expensive design? Are the diffusers on the flourescent lights standard flat, textured panels or more expensive divided lights? Are the sprinkler heads exposed or do they have caps?

Class A office space brings higher rents than Class C office space, because of these types of details.

The fancy railings at Port Orleans French Quarter cost more than the plain railings at PC.

A pool with a large, detailed Mayan pyramid with a slide as at Coronado Springs costs more than the Hippie Dippie pool at PC.

A big fiberglass thing, for which the only maintenance is essentially a periodic power wash, costs less to construct and operate/maintain than the exterior details and landscaping that you see at the Poly and the WL.

Busses move lots of people more efficiently than boats.

 

[YoHo]

But, the landscaping is WDW wide and is amortized across all of the resorts, so that isn't a factor. And I actually doubt the busses are more efficent then the boats.

 

[DancingBear]

Originally posted by YoHo
But, the landscaping is WDW wide and is amortized across all of the resorts, so that isn't a factor. And I actually doubt the busses are more efficent then the boats.

Regardless of how landscaping is accounted for internally at WDW, the landscaping at the Poly costs more than the landscaping at the Value resorts.

I think you're completely wrong on the boats vs. busses economics, at least if you're talking about the size of boats that would be likely used at WDW, such as the ones that run MK to WL.

 

[airlarry!]

Some of the comments I've read today read like an insider's transcript of Walt's discussions with the heads of major New York banks when building Disneyland.

Somehow that little money pit in Anaheim got built anyway, and somehow it worked.

I know I'm asking you to believe in this on faith, but there it is. Have faith that with a little bit of creativity, some hard work, a little less greed and a lot more focus on guest satisfaction, a value priced accommodation could be built to satisfy the guests who want value pricing but deluxe feeling.

Hey, some would argue that no Disney experience is true without the monorail. (After staying on a monorail resort, I can see where the sentiment comes from). I don't. I may never have taken the boats from PO to DTD, but I still bragged to my friends that I could have.

The pools and transportation options at the AS and Poop cannot be defended, and are below the Disney standard. The argument against this essentially boils down to a "my room is just a place to sleep, so why do I care argument." Trust me, the price of the Coronado's pool isn't much of a factor at all in the exact price of the Cornodo's room rates, except as a selling point. It is negligble in the grand scheme of things, but only to an accountant, not to a guest.

 

[DancingBear]

Originally posted by airlarry!
The pools and transportation options at the AS and Poop cannot be defended, and are below the Disney standard. The argument against this essentially boils down to a "my room is just a place to sleep, so why do I care argument." Trust me, the price of the Coronado's pool isn't much of a factor at all in the exact price of the Cornodo's room rates, except as a selling point. It is negligble in the grand scheme of things, but only to an accountant, not to a guest.

The transportation options are the same as for the Coronado Springs and the Caribbean Beach (the original moderate resort), no?

Fine, add some bells and whistles to the pool, it won't cost that much more (even with the additional lifeguard requirements). But would that satisfy everyone?

And, again, at some point how would you justify charging more for the mods?

 

[airlarry!]

DB, are you defining the Disney standard for accommodations on-property as...only needing bus transportation, only needing AS type pools, and only needing food courts? Is this the minimum that you consider the Disney standard to be?

Really?

Well, what are you going to do when someone around here bids even lower? Someone, somewhere will say:

"I don't need those things. My kids enjoyed the Giant Bic Cigarette Lighter resort even without a fountain pool. We didn't need a food court, and we thought it was magically fun to walk a mile to the Poop Century to catch a bus. Besides, it was $29, it was on-site, AND it had that Disney feel to it. And let's face it, it's only a place to sleep in at night."

Then you'll be accused of being a fussy Disney grump, too.

My curiousity is piqued. Let's hear your idea of what the minimum a Disney hotel experience should have. I don't think that Disney should ever be in the "How Low Can We Go" game. I think Disney should strive to exceed guest's expectations.

P.S. The CBR without freaking water transportation to MGM, and the Coronado without train transportation to AK not only is moronic as a marketing tool, but it is a disgrace, too.

 

[YoHo]

"That's why I love Walt Disney. It costs $100,000 to build a spire you didn't need. The secret of Disney is doing things you don't need and doing them well and then you realize you needed them all along." - Ray Bradbury

 

[JKanownik]

Originally posted by airlarry!
I think Disney should strive to exceed guest's expectations.

The All Stars exceeded my expectations. And from the reviews of the Pop it sounds like it is exceeding people's expectations as well. In fact, I would say I am amazed at how well the Disney Magic is maintained when I've stayed at the value resorts even though I've only spent $74 a night both times I stayed there.

While I recognize that the deluxe resorts have their place at WDW, IMO I think that they would not meet my expectations when considering the premium price they command. One night at the Beach Club has to compare to not one night at AS, but to the 3 nights that would be a comparable price.

-Josh

 

[YoHo]

Originally posted by JKanownik
The All Stars exceeded my expectations. And from the reviews of the Pop it sounds like it is exceeding people's expectations as well. In fact, I would say I am amazed at how well the Disney Magic is maintained when I've stayed at the value resorts even though I've only spent $74 a night both times I stayed there.

While I recognize that the deluxe resorts have their place at WDW, IMO I think that they would not meet my expectations when considering the premium price they command. One night at the Beach Club has to compare to not one night at AS, but to the 3 nights that would be a comparable price.

-Josh

Wow, you wouldn't think it possible, but my head just exploded again.

 

[airlarry!]

Josh, I'm curious, how did the resort exceed your expectations?

I take this to mean that you expectated certain things from your resort, and that instead you found the resort to have better things.

What were they?

 

[All Aboard]

Expectations are borne out of experience and comparison. I think that's true for everyone. So, breaking that down...

A person has likely stayed at hotels before. A person has likely spent the same $ per night as they have paid at the WDW Value Resort. A person may have stayed at another WDW of higher category and paid more. They know what they "got" in each of these instances.

So, they arrive at a WDW Value resort, paying $xx per night. Based on the above paragraph (all sentences that apply to them specifically) they have likely generated an "expectation" of the resort.

The resort may fall short, meet, or exceed the expectation. If someone says it exceeded it, then it probably did. Or, are you saying, "you're wrong, you didn't experience what you did, you don't realize that you didn't, but you didn't, so you are wrong?"

 

[ShadowWind]

Originally posted by airlarry!
Josh, I'm curious, how did the resort exceed your expectations?

I take this to mean that you expectated certain things from your resort, and that instead you found the resort to have better things.

What were they?

I can't answer for Josh, but I can tell you what exceeded my expectation at Pop Century and that is the general atmosphere and undying friendliness of the CM's. I travel all over this country and I do so with some special needs. In many hotels, I've been hassled, frowned upon, treated as though I am a second class citizen. Disney, no matter what the request, does their darndest to help and/or at least treat you with respect. I can't tell you how many CM's went out of their way during my visits there to help out anyway they can. To me, that is as big of a part of the Disney magic and what I pay money for over just staying at an ourside resort. There are other things that I mentioned earlier, but this ranks right up there. The CM's always exceed my expectations at the resorts. And honestly, I find the value resort CM's to be friendlier than at the moderates, at least in my dealings with them. I can't remember the last time I heard an employee of any hotel chain outside say, "We just want to make sure you are happy..."

Add to this what I said earlier, and it should be clear why I consider Pop to be just as much Disney as any other resort. Whether you like their choice of architecture or not, does not make the property any less Disney-esque or impossible to have a Disney vacation there.

 

[YoHo]

Originally posted by gcurling
Expectations are borne out of experience and comparison. I think that's true for everyone. So, breaking that down...

A person has likely stayed at hotels before. A person has likely spent the same $ per night as they have paid at the WDW Value Resort. A person may have stayed at another WDW of higher category and paid more. They know what they "got" in each of these instances.

So, they arrive at a WDW Value resort, paying $xx per night. Based on the above paragraph (all sentences that apply to them specifically) they have likely generated an "expectation" of the resort.

The resort may fall short, meet, or exceed the expectation. If someone says it exceeded it, then it probably did. Or, are you saying, "you're wrong, you didn't experience what you did, you don't realize that you didn't, but you didn't, so you are wrong?"

Conversly, someone who has stayed at the Poly in the 70s and can work an inflation calculator on the price of that room might think that the Poop century is a Travesty. (regardless of mitigating factors)

More importantly, Disney did not used to be in the buisness of selling hotel rooms, but of selling expereince. At least at WDW.

 

[Captain Crook]

You're involved? I'll have to buy you a beer!

Needless to say Greg hit on exactly what I believe...And he and I don't always agree on these things.

I still can't grasp how the 'other side' in this argument can't concieve that despite all of their protests, knowledge of history and good taste, that some people could actually find Pop to be 'all that'? Please tell me how you can not recognize their love and perhaps devotion of this Disney offering. I know...I understand that it (Pop) doesn't live up to the lagacy (as you know it) of doing 'great things' that we all feel Walt left us...But again, who is the arbitor of what are 'great things'? These people (Pop lovers) may not 'know' Disney the way you do, but maybe they do...This is an unknown. But the fact remains that with this very controversial project, the current Disney seems to have created a certain positive buzz for many people...The project may not have fit into the scheme as we believe it should be but the net result seems to fit anyway...

Also, do any of you doubt that Walt would be happy by the positive experience so many are reporting from Pop?

Lastly, to all those who still harp that I'm a 'one trick pony', I refer you back to Mr. Curlings earlier post that aside from the financials this is all subjective. I understand all of your points but you fail to recognize that my arguments are seldom from the old school timeline. I may not be as interested in the "what Disney was" and "what Disney could still be" game as I am discussing what the current Disney can offer within the broad realm of the Disney magic that still exists. Don't confuse my choice of conversation as the inability to understand. We're not ALL bozo's on this bus...

 

[YoHo]

you as usual have missed the point. We don't care how many people like it. As I said, a lot of people like Pro Wrestling. That doesn't make Pop Century or Pro wrestling a Disney caliber offering.

"That's why I love Walt Disney. It costs $100,000 to build a spire you didn't need. The secret of Disney is doing things you don't need and doing them well and then you realize you needed them all along." - Ray Bradbury

"That's why I love Walt Disney. It costs $100,000 to build a spire you didn't need. The secret of Disney is doing things you don't need and doing them well and then you realize you needed them all along." - Ray Bradbury

"That's why I love Walt Disney. It costs $100,000 to build a spire you didn't need. The secret of Disney is doing things you don't need and doing them well and then you realize you needed them all along." - Ray Bradbury

"That's why I love Walt Disney. It costs $100,000 to build a spire you didn't need. The secret of Disney is doing things you don't need and doing them well and then you realize you needed them all along." - Ray Bradbury

"That's why I love Walt Disney. It costs $100,000 to build a spire you didn't need. The secret of Disney is doing things you don't need and doing them well and then you realize you needed them all along." - Ray Bradbury

"That's why I love Walt Disney. It costs $100,000 to build a spire you didn't need. The secret of Disney is doing things you don't need and doing them well and then you realize you needed them all along." - Ray Bradbury

"That's why I love Walt Disney. It costs $100,000 to build a spire you didn't need. The secret of Disney is doing things you don't need and doing them well and then you realize you needed them all along." - Ray Bradbury

 

[raidermatt]

I still can't grasp how the 'other side' in this argument can't concieve that despite all of their protests, knowledge of history and good taste, that some people could actually find Pop to be 'all that'?

That's not the point at all.

People like what they like, and there's nothing wrong with it.

But once again, there are thousands of things Disney could build that people would "like".

Its essentially the "it makes money" argument, which is what Greg is saying.

There's so much more to it than that.

I can tell you what exceeded my expectation at Pop Century and that is the general atmosphere and undying friendliness of the CM's.

Again, only one aspect.

Yes, an important, must have aspect for a Disney resort.

But that and decorations are not enough. That doesn't mean its not enough for YOU to enjoy your vacation, or for ME to enjoy my vacation.

It means its not enough because Disney's strategy and vision said its not enough. It said you did things a certain way regardless of whether you thought guests would demand it, or whether bookings would increase at a rate that justified the investment...

You did it because you believed in the concept. You put in a real chandelier when 99.9% of the guests wouldn't even notice.

 

[Captain Crook]

Comprehension problem, guys?

As I said, lots of people like pro wrestling. That doesn't make Pop Centurey or Pro Wrestling a Disney caliber offering.

According to????????? You? Would that be an objective or subjective opinion?

Look, read the rest of my post. I know where you're coming from and from that isolated little speck of the planet you have a valid point...But how Pop Century fits into the original scheme of what Disney was accomplishing isn't the basis of this discussion...

Geesh.

 

[YoHo]

Originally posted by Captain Crook
Comprehension problem, guys?
According to????????? You? Would that be an objective or subjective opinion?

According to people who have taken the time to look into what Walt did and why he did it. According to people who worked for Walt and Eisner. According to people who care about Why Disneyland legitimatly claimed the title of Happiest place on Earth. Not just people that are glad it's still a fairly happy place now.


According to people who care about whys and hows.


That's who. If that doesn't give an opinion at least a little bit of weight, then I don't know what does.


And I am well aware that the basis of discussion is a narrow concept you're trying to push. So narrow that there can be no real discussion.

The Title of this thread is quite simple. I gave my answer and I and others have justified why it's a valid answer in spite of the eyesore's (subjective AHOY) popularity.

You refuse to accept it and instead belittle my opinion. Perhaps I should return to merely trolling and looking to start fights with OWTS. It's jkust about as intellectually stimulating.

 

[Captain Crook]

Who?

 

[YoHo]

You know who.