Pop Century: Yea or Nay?

[Captain Crook]

LOL! You accuse me of belittling your opinion after

you as usual have missed the point.

Sure the conversation point is narrow, but I really didn't expect the whole DIS allum would be returning! Well, maybe I did, a little...But the point was with all of the neg pre opening pub could anyone still admit it a failure? The other argument (Disney history) is tried and true and I guess we can go there, but as you said to me there is really no room for legitimate argument there either...

 

[Captain Crook]

I've been directed to the jewell site and see Yoho's had it with me...But physical violence? Really?

Listen, this is fun. I learn things from all of you guys and I'm seriously not trying to be obtuse...But it is frustrating when I'm held to a standard that you guys don't follow when arguing with me (this is how I see it). That's the nature of internet debate, I guess.

Sorry for the aggravation Yoho. We've talked for a long time and I'd hate to make it worse, so unless other comments are directed to me I'll bow out (I'm going to Disney World-tomorrow).

 

[YoHo]

Who directed you there?


There are a lot of people I threaten physical violence to, it's just frustration. If I actually punched everyone I threatened to punch, I'd be behind bars by now.




No hamr no foul?

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

Just a couple of things. The thread went crazy today and I simply don’t have the energy (or the desire) to collect all the misinformed and philosophically devoid quotes!! Besides most of the car pool showed up in my absence and as usual are – RIGHT ON THE MONEY!!

But Greg!!!! My goodness!!! I’m surprised at you!! It seems you have completely lost the old Disney ‘TOUCH’ and replaced it with the old ‘sharp pencil practices’ that Walt HATED!! I suggest you re-read some of the element posts dealing with the concept of “Give the public everything you can give them”! Especially that new element poster, Ray something or other…

"That's why I love Walt Disney. It costs $100,000 to build a spire you didn't need. The secret of Disney is doing things you don't need and doing them well and then you realize you needed them all along."

Thanks Mr. Bradbury!! Something I’ve tried to say for years. But that’s why you get the big bucks as a writer, isn’t it? You just can’t shove any old verb next to a noun (as I do) and expect to make sense. You have to choose them carefully instead!!! And those are very carefully chosen words!! And everyone[/b] from the non-element side should read it daily!! Because basically this is all the ‘element’ is really talking about!!

Which brings me to DancingBear!! Who should really to a bit of research and digging for history!! But I’m ahead of myself! First Peter (or Captain – or whatever seafarer he’s going by today)!!

But how Pop Century fits into the original scheme of what Disney was accomplishing isn't the basis of this discussion...

Well… Not quite, Mr. Pirate!! If you will recall…

OK! Let me get this straight! If I tell you, in answer to the narrow definition of your question, that PC is a success, can we then go on to the higher and more important philosophical question.

If so...

YES!!!! It seems to be a success!

--------------End of original Question --------------

And then we moved on!! Remember?

OK!! Mr. Bear!!! You are at the beginning of a journey! And it is filled with awe inspiring concepts and revolutionary philosophies regarding business and life! Oh! How I envy you! I look at you as recommending to you a good book and then wishing, somehow, that I can erase it from my mind, so that I can experience it for the first time all aver again! So!!! Have fun! And enjoy the trip!!

Oh, please. Disney charged what the market would bear then, just as they do now. If it was so cheap to stay on Disney property back then, just why was 192 loaded with Econolodges?

As has been pointed out by almost everyone else – You couldn’t be more wrong!! But after you read a bit of your Disney history you’ll see how far off you really are!!

What, does Disney live in some magical vacuum where they can just randomly set prices for their resorts? Of course not. The pricing is dictated by supply (including off-site competitors) and demand. They couldn't have raised the prices for the "deluxe" resorts unless the market allowed it.

Again, better writers than yours truly have shown you that Disney was not influenced by ordinary business factors. No indeed!! But more fundamental question, and a question that THE PHILOSOPHY demands an answer, is:

SHOULD they have raised prices?

And again, I think you’ll see, that this approach – IS the difference!!

Oh Captain, My Captain!!

so unless other comments are directed to me I'll bow out (I'm going to Disney World-tomorrow).

Have fun!! I always do!!

And don’t be too hard on YoHo!! He was here even before you or me. And let's face it, anyone who spells that badly can't possible be....

… Well, you know what I mean!!

 

[YoHo]

If nothing else, this is his thread and I'm far more upset that something I said in jest at another site would cause him to abandon his own thread then I was frustrated with the actual thread.

It's your thread dude, say whatever you want to in it. it should be my job to get out if I can't take it.

 

[Captain Crook]

Yoho, I'm not upset in the least. As Landbaron can certainly attest to (if he remembers) my sense of humor is much maligned, so there is no way I'm taking offense to this...

All is well in the house of mouse...discussions.

Variety is the spice of life and I take very, very little of this too seriously.

I'll be seeing Greg and Scoop this week and rest assured we'll be talking about you all.

 

[Captain Crook]

PS

Damn you Landbaron. You caught me on a technicality...Something I WILL admit you're very good at.

 

[YoHo]

Now that I have a job again, I'm saving for a trip to florida. One day soon, you can talk to me, not about me.

unless of course you decide to make a trip out west.

 

[Captain Crook]

We actually visited California each of the past two years...This year has been cancelled (so far) due to the fear of $16.00 per gallon California gas prices...And my daughters health. There's still a (remote) chance we'll be making the trip and perhaps we'll be able to touch base...Otherwise we can meet in Florida and I'm quite sure you won't want to punch my nose!

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

Hey Captain!

What did you think of that Bradbury Quote? Pretty neat, ain't it? It certainly sums up the philosophy, doesn't it?

 

[Captain Crook]

It certainly sums up the philosophy, doesn't it?

Yes, it does.

 

[airlarry!]

Hope you don't mind if I wade through the hugs and kisses here but back to the topic.

Someone asked why I think I am the arbitrer of good taste when it comes to Poop and AS.

I guess I'm a bit shocked to even defend the fact that the they can't compare to the other resorts.

But, unlike some of my brethren, I wish it were only the incredible tackiness of the Poop resorts that made it so abominable.

To me, it is the utter disregard for the Disney Standard, one which I see in three pages of love fest has gone unaddressed.

No matter. I'm patient.

Tell me again how this Purple Plop of a resort fits the Standard, and I'll tell you again that there is someone, probably many someones on this very board who will bid you lower.

 

[JKanownik]

Challenge to those who think the value resorts go against the Disney standard. Give me one an example of each of the following:

1) A value hotel anywhere in the country that comes anywhere close to the AS or PC in terms of amenities, service, fun atmosphere and attention to detail. Personally, I've yet to see a hotel come close.

and

2) Suggest a design and a list of amenities for a value resort that would meets your standards AND would still maintain a reasonable price to design and amenities ratio when compared to the moderate and deluxe resorts. All of the ideas you've suggested are great, but they make you wonder why anyone would pay for a moderate or deluxe when they could get the exact same experience at a value price.


Also, the same Ray Bradbury quote keeps getting posted about the $100,000 spire, but I don't understand how that is a knock against the value resorts. They may not have $100,000 spires, but the same spirit is evident in their large fiberglass sculptures, detailed patterns created in the walkways, the design of the pools and the facades of the buildings. They very easily could have built a plain hotel with no Disney transportation, subtandard service, Disney themed painted buildings (no facades or sculptures) and square-shaped unthemed pools.

-Josh

 

[SnackyStacky]

So my question is, was Disney wrong in its offering or do the good reviews and high occupancy make it justified?

But the point was with all of the neg pre opening pub could anyone still admit it a failure?

Since the Captain is gone and now can't tell me to leave, I can finally say a little something!

Those above quotes come direct from Crook's posts. They're two COMPLETELY different questions. And even the first two questions in his initial posts are asking two completely different things.

SO - was Disney wrong in its offering? YES! Why? See Raidermatt's, Baron's, Voice's, and YoHo's posts.

Do the good reviews and high occupancy rate make it justified? NO! Why? See Raidermatt's, Baron's, Voice's, and YoHo's posts.

On those two questions, I cannot bend. I can't see how Pop Century can be justified when you have something like the Crystal Palace. When opened, didn't it just sell burgers? Who really cares about real crystal chandeliers if you're only going in there to spend $1 on a hamburger? Isn't that pretty darn similar to the budget resorts? Why should anyone care about anything when you're only paying a few bucks a night to sleep?!

How can anyone see something like that and then contend that the budget resorts fit within Walt's philosophy?

Can anyone still admit it a failure? Here's the crux of the disagreement - and quite frankly why I got so frustrated cause if that's what was initially being asked - then it should have been asked!

Success would mean achieving your goals - and the goals are different for every person. They're different for Disney, for the casual Disney vacationer, and the Disney geeks. For me, a success would be something that adheres to Walt's goals and philosophies. In that, I don't think that it's a success.

But for someone who's looking for huge statues and "fun atmosphere" - it fits! But that's all very personal; on both sides. I'm looking for more when I go to Disney. That doesn't make me right and everybody else wrong - and likewise, it doesn't make them right, and me wrong. It means that we all have different definitions of what success would be.

 

[Phoebesaturn]

Originally posted by JKanownik
Challenge to those who think the value resorts go against the Disney standard. Give me one an example of each of the following:

1) A value hotel anywhere in the country that comes anywhere close to the AS or PC in terms of amenities, service, fun atmosphere and attention to detail. Personally, I've yet to see a hotel come close.

and

2) Suggest a design and a list of amenities for a value resort that would meets your standards AND would still maintain a reasonable price to design and amenities ratio when compared to the moderate and deluxe resorts. All of the ideas you've suggested are great, but they make you wonder why anyone would pay for a moderate or deluxe when they could get the exact same experience at a value price.


Also, the same Ray Bradbury quote keeps getting posted about the $100,000 spire, but I don't understand how that is a knock against the value resorts. They may not have $100,000 spires, but the same spirit is evident in their large fiberglass sculptures, detailed patterns created in the walkways, the design of the pools and the facades of the buildings. They very easily could have built a plain hotel with no Disney transportation, subtandard service, Disney themed painted buildings (no facades or sculptures) and square-shaped unthemed pools.

-Josh

Its almost as if people don't read.

 

[JKanownik]

Originally posted by Phoebesaturn
Its almost as if people don't read.

It's funny to see people post things like this and expect their take on Walt Disney's values to be considered seriously. At the very least you could point out an example of my illiteracy so that I could work on improving my reading abilities.

-Josh

 

[bretsyboo]

well I find no real need to argue here. I wanted to say something like pointing out that saying disney can't give a disney experience at disney prices is hogwash because the math has shown that disney could still be making a profit at the poly and charging only 130 dollars a night. This comes from hotel management, but I won't source it further because like I said it's worthless. Walt himself could tell you that the pop century sucks and that he would have never built it and you'd still disagree. (as for turning that around on me, it's his company, I'd rubber stamp anything he wanted to do, he makes all of the decisions to anything he wants on his name)

I just stayed at the pop century and the hyatt just of property, from the hyatt I saw 3 theme parks and I could have seen the fireworks at night from my bed. I wouldn't call the hyatt a disney hotel because it was a hotel...it wasn't really themed anything though it was nicely decorated, but I sure found some magic gazing out upon those parks. I found non at pop century, I've found non at the all stars. I had more magic not staying at a disney hotel, and that is sad. Pop century meant and did nothing for me, actually I liked the all stars FAR better than I liked pop century.

Let's be clear, I never wanted pop to be built because I thought it wa a stupid, ugly, unimaginative idea. I didn't see how the creative unit of disney thought it was imaginative to take a bowling pin and make it...bigger. However, when I went to POP I fully expected that just being there, on the grounds, on a vacation that had already been heightened and excited me, that I would be there and regardless of decorations or tackyness that I would LIKE it. I was suprised to find that I didn't. The only Disney magic that I experienced at the pop century was seeing the custodial people decorate childrens windows with stuffed animals for when they come home, an act I'd have to guess they do at all of the motels on property.

So that's where I stand, it was definitly past the line for me, which makes me have to ask, at what point will we agree? Where would the magic disappear for you?

What if it was just a square pool?

What if there were no fiberglass structures?

What if there were no sayings on the roof?

At what point would you go to a Disney hotel and say this is NOT Disney? Perhaps when they go so low, and they will, I can come back here and we can all stand together and shout about the cheapening of a once great product...unless of course any place with the disney name fits your definition.

 

[hopemax]

Josh, you have asked for:

1) A value hotel anywhere in the country that comes anywhere close to the AS or PC in terms of amenities, service, fun atmosphere and attention to detail. Personally, I've yet to see a hotel come close.

This is where the spire quote comes in. Disney does things that you never expect, might even think are ridiculous, better then you ever expected, and after the fact you realized it was the right move.

If the only way you will believe that something is a better idea, is for someone else to have done it first, you will end up waiting an incredibly long time. No one will change their practices because they're all waiting for someone else to prove it works! Businesses are not omniscient. They are run by average people like you and me who have their own set of preconceptions of the correct way to run a business. Change happens when a person is willing to look past what they've always believed to examine the possibility that there might be a better way and risks the ridicule during the process.

I can not point to a hotel anywhere run the way that I would love to see the Disney hotels operate. But I can point you to an example of a businessman who did something that most every other successful businessman thought was absolutely the stupidest move a business could ever make. There were even predicions of global recession following the news. Henry Ford, made a decision that the best way to improve his bottom line was to double the salaries of his employees and institute a 40 hour work week. Think about that. If your boss announced that he was doubling your salary, and dropping the length of your work week by 5 hours, what would you think about your bosses sanity and business acumen? But it worked. And I can do it again with many of the choices that Walt Disney made.

And by that standard, does operating hotels that look more like the moderates but costs the same as the values sound nearly as insane? And yes, absolutely this would affect the pricing points at the higher priced hotels. But the lower prices would affect demand, it would affect people's perceptions of the value of a WDW vacation and thus their willingness to return or recommend a WDW vacation to others, the amount of marketing needed to generate bookings, etc. Pop Century can be called a "success" because it is getting the bookings. But does that prove that the Pop Century was the best and most successful option for WDW? I suppose we're back to, "If there was a better way, wouldn't they have done it?" And I'm back to "Businesses aren't omniscient. And if businesses always choose the best way, then that means, now in 2004, businesses are at their zenith. There will never be a better way to run a business." Is that what you believe?

But if all of that fell on deaf ears, I have stayed at numerous hotels which cost no more than the values at WDW that came with microwaves, coffee makers and refridgerators in the rooms at no additional charge. And high speed internet access is becoming more and more frequent. Some included a continental breakfast, others meal coupons for a full breakfast at a neighboring restaurant. But these are not things found at the WDW values and are one reason why those hotels fail to meet my expectations.

 

[KNWVIKING]

***" because the math has shown that disney could still be making a profit at the poly and charging only 130 dollars a night."***

What is an acceptable amount of profit for Disney to leave on the table ? Not just in the resorts, but at all the profit centers. After they've finished their break-even analysis, where should they set their mark-up ? Should it be what the market will bear ? Or should be some discounted rate that let's everyone share the magic of Poly and the Parks ?

As for the magic of the Hyatt vs PC/AS : What floor were you on that allowed you to view the fireworks while laying on your bed ? Would that Hyatt -on property- possibly have ruined a site line ala Swan/Dolphine ? I've stayed on and off property. To me, the magic isn't the resort, but actually being on property, staying in a city that is on vacation. The CM's make the resort what it is moreso then the structure. Maybe I'm just lucky, but I've never had a bad experience with a resort CM but have been irratated at other hotels where the staff seemed totally disinterested in their jobs.

Personally, I think the PC & AS resorts are ugly.

 

[raidermatt]

A value hotel anywhere in the country that comes anywhere close to the AS or PC in terms of amenities, service, fun atmosphere and attention to detail. Personally, I've yet to see a hotel come close.

You maybe right, though you may want to read some posts from many Disneyites when Early Entry was axed... seems there wasn't quite as much "Magic" in all those other things after all. When it comes down to it, the difference is really the location and decorations that make them different.

But that doesn't make it Disney. It makes it nice. It may even make it the choice of many for their vacation accomodations. But that was not enough for the Disney of old, and it shouldn't be enough for the Disney of today.

Suggest a design and a list of amenities for a value resort that would meets your standards AND would still maintain a reasonable price to design and amenities ratio when compared to the moderate and deluxe resorts. All of the ideas you've suggested are great, but they make you wonder why anyone would pay for a moderate or deluxe when they could get the exact same experience at a value price.

I'm not an "imagineer", nor do I claim to be qualified to be one. So I've stolen a post from another board and pasted it below.

I'm sure anyone who wants to can pick apart pieces of this as being impractical. Maybe they'd be right. But its the spirit of the idea that is the key.

Say, for example, that the shoebox Animal Kingdom Lodge wasn't built. Instead the Village of Humarbi sprawled over a couple acres. The town is a vibrant market place were the local craftsman and farmers sell their wares. In the center of town the old Victoria Hall still rents out rooms and serves as reminder of an age long past. It's run by the original proprietor (some say a power local shaman has cast a spell that keeps the old British Major forever young). Many of his friends stop by at the attached pub and restaurant – the club regaling visitors with tales of their adventure.

Not to be outdone, other local merchants have opened up a wide variety of accommodations for all tastes and budgets: a bed and breakfast type resort the Governor's old mansion, a safari lodge has been converted into a nice mid-range hotel, and the thriving Animal Research Center even will let people stay in the Research Assistant housing. The more adventurous might want to truly "go native" and stay in native huts and longhouses – or join the staff of the research station as they camp out on savannah at night (beware the zebras wandering through the camp).

During the day, the town is alive with activity. Some may wish to see what is happening at the Animal Center and become a researcher or caretaker for the day. Nearby Switzer Falls area off all kinds of water activities (just make sure the hippos are out of the pools). Jeep tours with the naturalists leave every hour for an "up close" experience with the environment. Or you can go on foot and explore the area yourself. There are even rumors that the lost mine of King Solomon may be nearby. One only wonders what may be inside…