raidermatt
Be water, my friend.
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All he nailed is that there are still those who can't bring themselves to say their favorite vacation spot isn't being run the way it should be.
Which is fine, of course. There's no law requiring people to attempt to separate their emotions from their analysis.
A perfect example of what I said above. People build timeless memories around thousands of things. That doesn't make all of them appropriate business ventures for Disney, or any other company for that matter.
So there is no point in debating anything Disney has ever done, since it is impossible to prove any alternative strategy would have yielded better results.
That includes not only the values as they stand, but Dinorama, DCA, Euro-Disney, Atlantis, Go.com, etc, etc, etc.
Interesting attempt to kill the conversation.
For the first 40 years or so, that creative brainpower was never asked to build a cheap hotel.
Wonder why?
ShadowWind
Mouseketeer
- Joined
- Feb 18, 2004
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- 243
I just got back from Disney and had reservations at All-Star Music which upon arrival, I felt it was seriously lacking what Pop Century had. Because of this, I actually switched hotels to the PC and enjoyed my stay once again there.
Reading this thread, I started to think about what makes PC different than All-Stars. Theming doesn't have to be immersive, just as art can be tacky and still be meaningful. The problem I think with AllStars is that the generic icons like a football, cowboy boots, surfboards and a Coke cup really doesn't stir any feeling unless you are a fan of such things. They don't have a general appeal. ASMovies is a little better at this, because we all relate to Disney movies we've seen and enjoyed and tap into those feelings to get the experience.
PC, from the moment you drive down the entrance road, you get that feeling of nostalgia. It starts with the fun signs that says stuff like "Color TV" and "Air Conditioned Rooms" which may not mean much to the younger folk, but these type of signs were a staple on the roads of America when looking for lodging. I found that everywhere I looked, a flood of great memories of day's gone past came back to me, and that is why it works and I bet is successful. I think people who stay at Pop Century would be hard pressed to not find something there that sparks their memory. I had a Big Wheel when I was a kid, and can remember racing down the street trying to beat my friends. I drooled over a Mickey Mouse phone when they came out, but never got one, but still. I had a mood ring, played PacMan, remembered 8 Track tapes and how the tape always came out of the plastic carriage. The huge icons work here because the retro feel can be tacky, but fun and certainly bring back memories, and that is what Disney is all about, is it not? You know it's funny, because Sci-Fi Dine In Theatre at Disney-MGM is expensive to get a hamburger, that you can get anywhere and watch a movie that you wouldn't watch if it came on TV probably, but yet people flock inside. Why? Because they remember the fun of drive in theatres and have pleasant memories of such.
I stayed at Port Orleans Riverside last year, and I found it to be quite stunning and certainly had that old world charm, but I don't remember once thinking to myself, this really brings up memories for me. I've travelled through the southeast and while I've seen such architecture, there is not a whole lot to base the memories on. To me, it just seemed like a well architected hotel. I just didn't relate to it.
I do know the history of the company and I agree that Walt would probably have avoided what he considered tacky, just as he would avoided DINORAMA, but I think he would find interest in the fact that people do relate to what is presented, as it was his goal. I think he would have probably made it more subtle, something along the lines of a Hard Rock Cafe than big and glaring.
But in the end, I think it depends on what your definition of Disney is. We all seem to have differing opinions. People will never get Contemporary's appeal, while others will never get PC's. PC is not an immersive experience like Polynesian and Wilderness Lodge. It is not designed to be. However, if as I said above, you consider Disney to be a place where memories come flooding back in fun ways, then I think PC is very Disney-esque in it's own right. I think AllStars taught them that there was a market for budget hotels and it's taken to PC to really tweak that experience. Besides, any resort, regardless of the theming is infinitely more Disney than the offsite hotels. I stayed at some of the most expensive ones off site and found them to be full of amenities but cold on atmosphere. There is no place that does it as well as Disney.
Reading this thread, I started to think about what makes PC different than All-Stars. Theming doesn't have to be immersive, just as art can be tacky and still be meaningful. The problem I think with AllStars is that the generic icons like a football, cowboy boots, surfboards and a Coke cup really doesn't stir any feeling unless you are a fan of such things. They don't have a general appeal. ASMovies is a little better at this, because we all relate to Disney movies we've seen and enjoyed and tap into those feelings to get the experience.
PC, from the moment you drive down the entrance road, you get that feeling of nostalgia. It starts with the fun signs that says stuff like "Color TV" and "Air Conditioned Rooms" which may not mean much to the younger folk, but these type of signs were a staple on the roads of America when looking for lodging. I found that everywhere I looked, a flood of great memories of day's gone past came back to me, and that is why it works and I bet is successful. I think people who stay at Pop Century would be hard pressed to not find something there that sparks their memory. I had a Big Wheel when I was a kid, and can remember racing down the street trying to beat my friends. I drooled over a Mickey Mouse phone when they came out, but never got one, but still. I had a mood ring, played PacMan, remembered 8 Track tapes and how the tape always came out of the plastic carriage. The huge icons work here because the retro feel can be tacky, but fun and certainly bring back memories, and that is what Disney is all about, is it not? You know it's funny, because Sci-Fi Dine In Theatre at Disney-MGM is expensive to get a hamburger, that you can get anywhere and watch a movie that you wouldn't watch if it came on TV probably, but yet people flock inside. Why? Because they remember the fun of drive in theatres and have pleasant memories of such.
I stayed at Port Orleans Riverside last year, and I found it to be quite stunning and certainly had that old world charm, but I don't remember once thinking to myself, this really brings up memories for me. I've travelled through the southeast and while I've seen such architecture, there is not a whole lot to base the memories on. To me, it just seemed like a well architected hotel. I just didn't relate to it.
I do know the history of the company and I agree that Walt would probably have avoided what he considered tacky, just as he would avoided DINORAMA, but I think he would find interest in the fact that people do relate to what is presented, as it was his goal. I think he would have probably made it more subtle, something along the lines of a Hard Rock Cafe than big and glaring.
But in the end, I think it depends on what your definition of Disney is. We all seem to have differing opinions. People will never get Contemporary's appeal, while others will never get PC's. PC is not an immersive experience like Polynesian and Wilderness Lodge. It is not designed to be. However, if as I said above, you consider Disney to be a place where memories come flooding back in fun ways, then I think PC is very Disney-esque in it's own right. I think AllStars taught them that there was a market for budget hotels and it's taken to PC to really tweak that experience. Besides, any resort, regardless of the theming is infinitely more Disney than the offsite hotels. I stayed at some of the most expensive ones off site and found them to be full of amenities but cold on atmosphere. There is no place that does it as well as Disney.
ShadowWind
Mouseketeer
- Joined
- Feb 18, 2004
- Messages
- 243
Another point I've just thought of is that the values are a good introduction to the Disney experience and often get people hooked on staying there. I didn't even consider staying on property until All-Star Sports had their $49 special and since then I won't stay anywhere else (except the Hilton in Hotel Plaza because I wanted to extend my stay at POR or any other Disney resort but there were no rooms available onsite). If I had to pay $149 a night to try it, I would still be staying off property.
Phoebesaturn
Mouseketeer
- Joined
- Apr 26, 2004
- Messages
- 102
I would love to have my old name back...I doubt they will give it to me though. Think Moons! I was in a past life a great icey moon thought to have the ability to support life. I was very famous in a couple of moives 2001 and 2010. Do you know who I am yet? PM's perfered.
This argument has be fought time and time again....and past pricing of the Contemp and Poly have proven otherwise.
DancingBear
DIS Veteran
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- Jul 2, 2001
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- 6,167
Huh?
Phoebesaturn
Mouseketeer
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- Apr 26, 2004
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- 102
Should have been past pricing...ie before the current "check the bus seats for droped coins" team.
DancingBear
DIS Veteran
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I'm still not following how "past pricing" of the Poly and Contemporary are evidence that "Value" resorts could be better.
Phoebesaturn
Mouseketeer
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- Apr 26, 2004
- Messages
- 102
Its been shown before that past room rates for both the Contemporary and the Poly were very reasonable( in late 70's and early 80's dollars) and were not the 250+ a night mug fest they are now. At some point that idea was changed to the current rob them at the front desk pricing. So if the Poly and Contemporary could for years provide the true Disney magic at a reasonable price what changed to where that same price point gets you Pop and the All-Stars?
If fact if I remember correctly didn't someone post some numbers one time that showed that the building cost between the different hotels was not that far off and didn't justify the current price gaps?
raidermatt
Be water, my friend.
- Joined
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The numbers showed that Disney did offer the rooms at a more "reasonable" rate than today. In fairness, they were not the equivalent of today's "value" rates either.
The point remains true, however, that Disney itself is the precedent for offering more immersive experiences at lower prices than they do now.
That doesn't mean the Poly at $59 per night, however.
It does mean that if you can't offer an immersive experience at $59 per night, pehaps you shouldn't offer anything at $59 per night.
Focus on, and invest in, the things that do fit your company's vision and strategy.
Of course when your company's vision and strategy becomes "make money", I guess you can argue anything fits.
The point remains true, however, that Disney itself is the precedent for offering more immersive experiences at lower prices than they do now.
That doesn't mean the Poly at $59 per night, however.
It does mean that if you can't offer an immersive experience at $59 per night, pehaps you shouldn't offer anything at $59 per night.
Focus on, and invest in, the things that do fit your company's vision and strategy.
Of course when your company's vision and strategy becomes "make money", I guess you can argue anything fits.
C
Captain Crook
Guest
Of course it is seldom noted that those prices in those days didn't offer the current breadth of choices that a current WDW stay does...Insignificant? I think not...
SnackyStacky
DIS Veteran
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Despite the fact that I've left the debate here - I'd simply like to throw in that Baron - I tried that.
Didn't work.
airlarry!
Did you know some ferns date back to Prehistoric t
- Joined
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- Messages
- 959
Hmm, I dunno, Matt, these people are starting to convince me.
It's the price that counts. Not necessarily the show. It's the purely just the bones. If you can get the Disney name, be within a 35 minute bus ride from the Magic Kingdom, shop in a Disney approved store, and all for under $50, it must be good.
Just think, there are some hotels out there that advertise $29 a night. It's time for Di$ney to capture that market too, cause that has to tee off Mr. Ei$ner.
We need one more tier of hotels..."value" is already taken.
How 'bout "cheap"?
Build them in the same manner...because as some have pointed out that the Poly and the Poop basically cost the same to build, it's the extra to run it that is the difference.
So build another stretch of motel rooms. We need a theme, the first could be an homage to all of those wonderful little motels that sprang up around Disneyland in the 60s or maybe the cute little boxy mom and pops that used to line the streets of Kissimmee.
But there will be changes.
The deluxes have great restaurants, the moderates have one restaurant and food courts, and the values have a single food court. Whoops, the cheaps will have no food court, just those little rolling vendors, but lots of them, selling churros and mickey headed chocolate ice cream bars all over the property.
The deluxes have giant landscaped themed pools, moderates have a nice sized pool with a slide, and the values have two pools, one with a waterfountain. That's gotta go. The cheaps will have a pool, but it will have no fountain, just one small pool for everyone.
The deluxe have monorails, the moderates have multiple bus stops, the values have one stop, so of course, the cheaps will have no stops. That's right. They will be built next to the values, and a 'magical' walkway through the 'magical' gift$hop of about 1/4 mile will lead you right to the value bus stop.
But remember, you will be:
.On site
.Paying only $29-69 a night (gotta move the values back up to .$89-109 like they were intended)
.Have transportation
.Disney shopping
.A smiling face with a Disney CM nametag on it checking you in
.24/7 Disney on the tube in your room
Just think how many people who never could afford the values, will no be able to stay onsite. Who knows in a couple of years, they may move up to the All Stars! It's not the experience of staying on site for under $100 with the signature Disney touch that is important, it's the fact that you are staying on-site in a clean room with Di$ney brand plasted everywhere that counts.
It's a foolproof plan.
It's the price that counts. Not necessarily the show. It's the purely just the bones. If you can get the Disney name, be within a 35 minute bus ride from the Magic Kingdom, shop in a Disney approved store, and all for under $50, it must be good.
Just think, there are some hotels out there that advertise $29 a night. It's time for Di$ney to capture that market too, cause that has to tee off Mr. Ei$ner.
We need one more tier of hotels..."value" is already taken.
How 'bout "cheap"?
Build them in the same manner...because as some have pointed out that the Poly and the Poop basically cost the same to build, it's the extra to run it that is the difference.
So build another stretch of motel rooms. We need a theme, the first could be an homage to all of those wonderful little motels that sprang up around Disneyland in the 60s or maybe the cute little boxy mom and pops that used to line the streets of Kissimmee.
But there will be changes.
The deluxes have great restaurants, the moderates have one restaurant and food courts, and the values have a single food court. Whoops, the cheaps will have no food court, just those little rolling vendors, but lots of them, selling churros and mickey headed chocolate ice cream bars all over the property.
The deluxes have giant landscaped themed pools, moderates have a nice sized pool with a slide, and the values have two pools, one with a waterfountain. That's gotta go. The cheaps will have a pool, but it will have no fountain, just one small pool for everyone.
The deluxe have monorails, the moderates have multiple bus stops, the values have one stop, so of course, the cheaps will have no stops. That's right. They will be built next to the values, and a 'magical' walkway through the 'magical' gift$hop of about 1/4 mile will lead you right to the value bus stop.
But remember, you will be:
.On site
.Paying only $29-69 a night (gotta move the values back up to .$89-109 like they were intended)
.Have transportation
.Disney shopping
.A smiling face with a Disney CM nametag on it checking you in
.24/7 Disney on the tube in your room
Just think how many people who never could afford the values, will no be able to stay onsite. Who knows in a couple of years, they may move up to the All Stars! It's not the experience of staying on site for under $100 with the signature Disney touch that is important, it's the fact that you are staying on-site in a clean room with Di$ney brand plasted everywhere that counts.
It's a foolproof plan.
Originally posted by Captain Crook
Of course it is seldom noted that those prices in those days didn't offer the current breadth of choices that a current WDW stay does...Insignificant? I think not...
Wait so, if you offered what is now called deluxe at what was moderate pricing in 1972. Then, you built hotels that hhad fewer amenities, no views of the park etc etdc. you should raise the price of the old room and htis is a good thing?
It's a load of Cow doots that's what it is.
Oh, and as usual I didn't read the whole thread, but I'd like to take this opportunity to to address Mr OWTS's snide comments about the Disneyland hotel. Now, first what you must understand is that the Disneyland Hotel is WHY we have the Polynesian and the Contemporary. It was the unDisneyness of that hotel which gave us the new one.
Having said that, as gob as my witness, I'd rather stay at the Disneyland resort and fly to WDW everymorning then step foot in Pop Century. I will never see it first hand. It's an offense to our creator (whatever you think that is), Nature and innocent primary colors everywhere.
You wanna fight about it? you know where to find me.
DVC-Landbaron
What Would Walt Do?
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- 1,861
Mr. SHOW!! Where are you? You really need to explain this:
DancingBear
BTW, On another discussion board (in conjunction with an AV concept) Mr. Kidds got me to change my mind about alternative pricing. YES!! It very definitely CAN be done. And this concept was thought up by a couple of knuckleheads on an Internet Bulletin Board!!
No, Mr. Bear! Just because you arent aware doesnt mean Disney couldnt do it if it chose to!! They just choose NOT to. Instead they come up with clear cut price distinctions and try to milk every dollar they can. And again, that is most assuredly NOT the philosophy that brought me to the dance in the first place! Is it what attracted you?
Sir Crusader! Hail and well met! We havent jousted in a while. Ive been a bit busy lately and havent have time to check in much. So I might have missed a name change or two, but believe me, I was (and still am) totally stymied when you said:
Mr. Bear!
It is simply because the Poly (price with the Walt philosophy) was the real value.
Captain Pirate!! My old friend! How you do like to stir things up!!
THAT cannot be watered down, diluted, broken up or parceled off and sold off as a commodity. It is fundamental to the Walt ideal! It is basic to the philosophy!!
It really is that simple!!
NOTE: Sir Matt and His Airness! PERFECT!! ABSOLUTELY PERFECT!!!
Like I said before, I must have missed some sort of sarcasm, irony, trenchant wit in your post I must be the blame for not rising to your sophisticated humor!! Or else youre just plain NUTS!!!! (said humorously, of course!)
DancingBear
They should offer THE Disney experience. Period. If they can do that for economy (They are NOT a VALUE!!!!!) prices, then they could (or even should) provide it. If not, a resounding NO!!!!!
Again, they are not a value! But that aside, just because you didnt see any evidence doesnt mean it could not be done. No one saw any evidence that the amusement going crowd would be WOWed by Pirates, before they thought it up! And no one saw any evidence that the country needed a theme park, before they did it. No! They should be leading that industry that you seem to hold in high regard. Instead they follow. And most of the time they lag far behind.
BTW, On another discussion board (in conjunction with an AV concept) Mr. Kidds got me to change my mind about alternative pricing. YES!! It very definitely CAN be done. And this concept was thought up by a couple of knuckleheads on an Internet Bulletin Board!!
No, Mr. Bear! Just because you arent aware doesnt mean Disney couldnt do it if it chose to!! They just choose NOT to. Instead they come up with clear cut price distinctions and try to milk every dollar they can. And again, that is most assuredly NOT the philosophy that brought me to the dance in the first place! Is it what attracted you?
Sir Crusader! Hail and well met! We havent jousted in a while. Ive been a bit busy lately and havent have time to check in much. So I might have missed a name change or two, but believe me, I was (and still am) totally stymied when you said:
Please fill in the blanks for me!!! I feel like Im really out of the loop!
Mr. Bear!
It simply means that weve worked the numbers. We worked them to death. And it turns out that in todays money the poly would cost $125 a night!!! Now perhaps you can see why I refuse to call those cheap, gaudy decorated NON-Disney like aberrations Values.
It is simply because the Poly (price with the Walt philosophy) was the real value.
Captain Pirate!! My old friend! How you do like to stir things up!!
TOTALLY insignificant!! My dear Pirate! AGAIN, you ask the wrong question!! Price, cost and all other things combined is absolutely insignificant compared to providing THE DISNEY EXPERIENCE!!!
THAT cannot be watered down, diluted, broken up or parceled off and sold off as a commodity. It is fundamental to the Walt ideal! It is basic to the philosophy!!
It really is that simple!!
NOTE: Sir Matt and His Airness! PERFECT!! ABSOLUTELY PERFECT!!!
raidermatt
Be water, my friend.
- Joined
- Sep 26, 2000
- Messages
- 6,856
Yes, there are more choices.
Each with their own price.
DancingBear
DIS Veteran
- Joined
- Jul 2, 2001
- Messages
- 6,167
And just because you say it could be done doesn't mean you're correct. Again, no Imagineer has the ability to magically alter the economics of the motel business.
Oh, please. Disney charged what the market would bear then, just as they do now. If it was so cheap to stay on Disney property back then, just why was 192 loaded with Econolodges?
DancingBear
DIS Veteran
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- Jul 2, 2001
- Messages
- 6,167
What, does Disney live in some magical vacuum where they can just randomly set prices for their resorts? Of course not. The pricing is dictated by supply (including off-site competitors) and demand. They couldn't have raised the prices for the "deluxe" resorts unless the market allowed it.
DancingBear
DIS Veteran
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I got no problem with this position, only with the idea that WDW could have done much better with their "value" options.
DancingBear
DIS Veteran
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- Messages
- 6,167
I don't know what numbers were presented before, but there is simply no way that the costs of building and outfitting PC are even roughly equivalent to building a new deluxe. Cinderblock buildings with flat roofs and exterior walkways, minimal landscaping and big pools vs. a building with pitched and decorative roofs, carpeted interior hallways, themed interiors (look at all of the light fixtures in the hallways at AKL or WL), heavily landscaped exteriors and pools with amenities? The furniture? The restaurant facilities? What a joke.
And, of course, there are all of the additional operating costs.
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