Poor Sportsmanship in the NFL

Wait, you're a black person who doesn't believe that institutionalized racism and white privilege exist?

Believe it or not, we exist :sad2:

ETA- I believe there are people of all colors that want to hold others (of all colors) back.

That is not my problem. I will not allow people like that to impede my goals in life.
 
Believe it or not, we exist :sad2:

I knew you existed, I just didn't think I would come across one in the wild. You're a unicorn. That's all I can say on that. Sorry I thought you were white, because that was pretty much what I hear from white people who get nervous when you suggest their whiteness gives them a leg up.

I don't think you're correct in that institutionalized racism and white privilege don't exist. We know institutionalized racism exists and we know that generational poverty is damaging. Those things are true. They're studied and verified. And, I think it's going to take uncomfortable conversations before we can end those things. I apologize for assuming you were white, but I don't apologize for believing in factual evidence.
 
That "just a job" is the reason that NFL players have the right to not stand for the flag.

How any one can sit in their comfy chair on a computer and say that the guys sleeping in the dirt or sand, thousands of miles from their families, risking their lives and call what they do "just a job" boggles my mind.

The reason they get there doesn't matter. Many people make choices based on lack of other choices. It doesn't change the fact that joining the military, the police force, becoming a fireman are all much more than just a job.

Are they they morally better than anyone else. No. Good and bad in everything. But they are willing to stand between you and whatever bad guy or bad thing is trying to come at you, your family, your home or our country and THAT makes it much more than just a job.

I was specifically referring to the claims that somehow an insult to the US flag or national anthem is demeaning to members of the military. I've known people who served in the military. Many were those who did it for honorable reasons. Others had difficulties finding other employment. Some wanted help with money for college. Few spent time sleeping in the dirt or sand.

I'm also realistic about what the military does. They follow orders which usually involve projecting American power. That may be a good or bad thing depending on who you talk to.

But back to the point, does Colin Kaepernick refusing to stand for the national anthem specifically insult members of the military?
 
I don't think you're correct in that institutionalized racism and white privilege don't exist. We know institutionalized racism exists and we know that generational poverty is damaging. Those things are true. They're studied and verified. And, I think it's going to take uncomfortable conversations before we can end those things. I apologize for assuming you were white, but I don't apologize for believing in factual evidence.

LOL! If you don't think black people judge white people because of their color, I have a thing or two to talk to you about:jumping1:


I think all people judge others on things like their color, their upbringing, their money (or lack there of), their appearance, weight, clothing choices, etc. ALL people. This is just not "whites against blacks" stuff.

If I want to get uncomfortable and honest, I constantly judge people. Just today (in my own mind, not out loud):
Why is she letting her gut hang out of those pants?
His teeth are so gross, why is he driving that nice car instead of using that money to fix his teeth?
Why is this homeless person going in and out of the bathroom at Starbucks?


So there. Color had nothing to do with all of my petty assumptions this morning. Perhaps I am just not a very good person. Maybe I was in a bad mood, because many mornings, I don't even notice a single soul. I just go about my day. But, yes. I do judge others.

We are human. I think we are ALL programmed to judge, or at the very least, make assumptions about other people's differences.
 

^^
There is a difference between prejudice, which we all have, and institutionalized racism. Prejudice, which you describe, and racism are different concepts.
 
I knew you existed, I just didn't think I would come across one in the wild. You're a unicorn. That's all I can say on that. Sorry I thought you were white, because that was pretty much what I hear from white people who get nervous when you suggest their whiteness gives them a leg up.

I don't think you're correct in that institutionalized racism and white privilege don't exist. We know institutionalized racism exists and we know that generational poverty is damaging. Those things are true. They're studied and verified. And, I think it's going to take uncomfortable conversations before we can end those things. I apologize for assuming you were white, but I don't apologize for believing in factual evidence.

I'm also black, but I disagree with everything Chocolate Cake said.


I don't understand why some white people think the black community is a group of monolithic thinkers. Being the same color doesn't mean we have had the same life experiences. It doesn't mean we have the same political views. Blacks have always been on both sides of racial/social issues.


Again, I do not agree with Chocolate, but some rare, mythical being. While I agree with you on the topic at hand, I think your in the wild and unicorn comments were offense.
 
^^
There is a difference between prejudice, which we all have, and institutionalized racism. Prejudice, which you describe, and racism are different concepts.
The problem with "institutionalized racism" is that it's a nebulous concept that has a multitude of definitions across a population such that nothing can be done to "remove" it to everyone's satisfaction. You effectively can see it anywhere you want to. My favorite example was an interview I read in the early 90's with Spike Lee not long after Mike Tyson was convicted and Lee spoke about systematic racism by contrasting Tyson's conviction with the recent rape acquittal of Kennedy clan member William Kennedy Smith. Paraphrasing, Lee said "The two verdicts demonstrated that juries will take the word of a white man, but not a black man!" The interviewer retorted (paraphrased) "But if the verdicts had been reversed, couldn't you then claim that juries will take the word of a white woman but not a black woman?" Lee didn't think much of that comment, as I recall.
 
^^
There is a difference between prejudice, which we all have, and institutionalized racism. Prejudice, which you describe, and racism are different concepts.


Yes. I am aware of that. And I just don't believe that the majority of white Americans believe that the white race is superior.

I think as a whole, Americans just want to do right by their families, pay their bills, enjoy life, etc.

I don't think the majority of people are sitting around pondering how their race is superior to another's. Most of us just can't wait to make it to another Friday:snail:
 
What study is so specific it comes down to a percentage of how many black disabled children are manually restrained?

Stop whining, stop playing the damn victim, lose the chip off of your shoulder. Stop saying stupid things like "You don't know how hard it is. We have to teach our black men to put their hands on the steering wheel and speak to officers in a certain tone when they are stopped.":rolleyes:

No. Crap.

White people have to do that too. All colors have to do that.

I am so sick and tired of black people holding other black people down. It's hurting our children and setting us back. It is my latest obsession to seek out black scholars and professors that love to instill in our youth how "wypipo" (professors actually using this term) hate us and oppress us. Newsflash: They don't.

There are very bad white people. There are very bad black people. Bad people come in all colors.

Obey the law at all times. Behave. Stand up straight. Smile and be kind. Dress the part of a functioning member of the human race. Speak in an articulate manner (apologies for the "No. Crap.") And reach your potential. Black, white and every color in between.

<like * infinity>

Would you like to borrow my flame suit? I have a feeling you're going to need it.
 
Yes. I am aware of that. And I just don't believe that the majority of white Americans believe that the white race is superior.

I think as a whole, Americans just want to do right by their families, pay their bills, enjoy life, etc.

I don't think the majority of people are sitting around pondering how their race is superior to another's. Most of us just can't wait to make it to another Friday:snail:
I agree with you, but I must say this seems like a bit of a non-sequitur from the current conversation as I have not seen anyone in this thread suggest any such belief.
 
The problem with "institutionalized racism" is that it's a nebulous concept that has a multitude of definitions across a population such that nothing can be done to "remove" it to everyone's satisfaction. You effectively can see it anywhere you want to. My favorite example was an interview I read in the early 90's with Spike Lee not long after Mike Tyson was convicted and Lee spoke about systematic racism by contrasting Tyson's conviction with the recent rape acquittal of Kennedy clan member William Kennedy Smith. Paraphrasing, Lee said "The two verdicts demonstrated that juries will take the word of a white man, but not a black man!" The interviewer retorted (paraphrased) "But if the verdicts had been reversed, couldn't you then claim that juries will take the word of a white woman but not a black woman?" Lee didn't think much of that comment, as I recall.
Just because it can be poorly applied doesn't mean there aren't also actual examples of real systematic discrimination that we should take the time to address.
 
So, here is an interesting test of "implicit bias" We just had our medical students complete this exercise, not to debate on whether or not implicit biases exist or not (they do). But rather, to make us all aware of the biases and prejudices we all have, and may or may not be manifested in the way we treat other people.

I challenge you all do try this. You might be surprised by your results.

https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/research/
 
LOL! If you don't think black people judge white people because of their color, I have a thing or two to talk to you about:jumping1:


I think all people judge others on things like their color, their upbringing, their money (or lack there of), their appearance, weight, clothing choices, etc. ALL people. This is just not "whites against blacks" stuff.

If I want to get uncomfortable and honest, I constantly judge people. Just today (in my own mind, not out loud):
Why is she letting her gut hang out of those pants?
His teeth are so gross, why is he driving that nice car instead of using that money to fix his teeth?
Why is this homeless person going in and out of the bathroom at Starbucks?


So there. Color had nothing to do with all of my petty assumptions this morning. Perhaps I am just not a very good person. Maybe I was in a bad mood, because many mornings, I don't even notice a single soul. I just go about my day. But, yes. I do judge others.

We are human. I think we are ALL programmed to judge, or at the very least, make assumptions about other people's differences.

I think, when the judgements are based on something like your sex, your religion, or your skin colour, it wears you down after awhile.

I've had a number of negative experiences around race that have stuck in my head. These are the things on which I base my judgments of the impact of racial inequality in North America...

1. Being the only little white girl in my New Jersey school didn't bother me much. I didn't care that people pulled my hair or stared into my eyes and said they were weird. But when a friend yelled at me from the window of the school bus that we couldn't be friends any more because she didn't "play with white girls", that hurt. Then there was the time the lady at the museum gift shop counter looked at my mum and me, looked at the black family at the end of the counter, and walked over to serve them... and then told us the shop was closed. The museum sent me some plastic animals as an apology, after my mum wrote a letter of complaint.

2. Moving to Canada, I can't believe how white everyone is! Talking to other recent immigrants I realize that I've got an advantage. I don't wear my outsider status on my skin. I blend in easily. I belong, in a way that I never belonged in my home town.

3. Accompanying my mum to a class reunion in Texas. First day, and we're all going back and forth to our cars in the hotel parking lot, getting various items. None of us were hassled by hotel security, except for a classmate of my mum's (a senior army officer) and his teenage son. They were black. The boy got to watch his dad shouted at, not allowed to show ID and thrown down over the hood of his car and frisked. The hotel never apologized to them, saying they "looked suspicious" (dressed in suit and tie) and their security were just doing their job. Later that week that boy and I went to a water park - no problem, though we thought it was weird he was the only black person there. Then we went to Six Flags, where I got screamed at and menaced by a group of black teenage girls, for the crime of being a white girl out with a black boy. We were both quite scared.

4. High school, and my friends are getting their driver's licenses. The only black girl in our class says to us, grinning, "So, how many time have YOU been pulled over by the cops?" We looked at her confused, "Never?" She lost her smile, "What do you mean, never? I've been pulled over three times this fall." We assured her we weren't lying; we'd never been stopped by the cops, ever. She said the cops were always polite and just wanted to see her license and registration, but then she said, unhappily, "Is it because I'm black?" It occurred to me then that these days when someone singles me out (versus back when I lived in NJ), I never have to ask myself if it's because I'm white.

5. Here on the DisBoards, someone posts that he's sure he's being repeatedly tagged to walk through the metal detectors because he's a brown person. Quite a few people (including myself) tell him he's probably wrong, since many of us get repeatedly tagged for the metal detectors and we're not all brown people. However, it's entirely reasonable of him to suspect that, and I know it's got to feel pretty awful to always have to wonder if it's your skin colour that's making people treat you differently. When I get tagged at the entrance to the parks, I know it's not because I'm white.

Yes, we judge each other on colour, and we need to stop. There's nothing wrong with thinking, "Why is she letting her gut hang out of those pants?" but there IS something very wrong with thinking, "Ugh, black women (or white women)! They're slovenly. They don't care about their appearance. Look at the way her gut hangs out of her pants! Typical." And if you allow these thoughts to affect the way you treat someone (ie, "I'm not going to waste my time serving that woman. I know her kind - she's probably on welfare and can't be bothered to tip me, anyway), that's even worse.

We need to work harder on respecting the inherent worth and dignity of all human beings, even as we naturally can't help thinking, "His teeth are gross, he should get them fixed instead of spending all his money on that new car!" (You're right, he probably should, and it's got nothing to do with his race or sex or religion or anything else. :hippie:) Also, that possibly-homeless person would worry me, too. Is he sick? Is he doing something dodgy in there? Either way, I sure don't want to share a bathroom with him! But that doesn't mean I'll be rude to him if our paths do cross, and I'll try to keep an open mind about who he might really be.
 
I agree with you, but I must say this seems like a bit of a non-sequitur from the current conversation as I have not seen anyone in this thread suggest any such belief.

This was in your response to me....When you informed me that prejudice and racism are different concepts.

I truly don't think the majority of people are sitting around being racists.
 
Just because it can be poorly applied doesn't mean there aren't also actual examples of real systematic discrimination that we should take the time to address.
True, but when there's so much "noise" in the conversation that will never go away, you're looking at a feat worthy of Sisyphus. I cannot forsee any outcomes that would make people such as Mr. Kaepernick willing to "stand" again.
 
Regarding race & prejudices, generational poverty (& everything that comes w/ it) exists as much for both whites & blacks. A poor white person coming from a poor, rural community has no more advantage than a poor black person coming from a poor, inner city community.

I really think it's not so much "white privilege" as it is "middle class/upper middle class wealth" privilege.

Anyway...

I was specifically referring to the claims that somehow an insult to the US flag or national anthem is demeaning to members of the military. I've known people who served in the military. Many were those who did it for honorable reasons. Others had difficulties finding other employment. Some wanted help with money for college. Few spent time sleeping in the dirt or sand.

I'm also realistic about what the military does. They follow orders which usually involve projecting American power. That may be a good or bad thing depending on who you talk to.

But back to the point, does Colin Kaepernick refusing to stand for the national anthem specifically insult members of the military?

Yes, yes it does.

The flag is a symbol of our freedom & stands for the sacrifices made for those freedoms. It flies free thanks to the sacrifices made by our military men & women.

By not standing, Kaepernick is saying his protest is more important than the sacrifice made for the freedom to protest. In many countries, he'd be jailed for his protest.

Also - if flags don't stand for anything, why are Confederate Flags being removed everywhere? If they're just flags w/ no "real meaning" behind them, then who cares?

And I cannot believe anyone would seriously think the military is "just a job".

Both of my grandfathers were WW2 vets. My dad is a Vietnam War vet. My brother-in-law is a Gulf War vet.

I was raised to love our country & to respect our flag & National Anthem & to honor those who have served & are serving our country. My husband & I are raising our children the same way.

And, yes, while this football player has the freedom to do whatever he wants - thanks to those men & women who have served, it's offensive to me & many other Americans that he doesn't stand at attention when the National Anthem plays.

He's free to not stand. I'm free to be offended by his actions. I'm free to hope that there are enough people also offended by his actions that he never has the chance to play NFL football again.

And I realize, in today's world, patriotism is scorned at, & it's considered intelligently superior to be cynical of our country, its military, & its "faux patriotism."

That's okay. I'm still free to think our country & its liberties are worth dying for. I'm still free to honor the men & women who do.
 
I was specifically referring to the claims that somehow an insult to the US flag or national anthem is demeaning to members of the military. I've known people who served in the military. Many were those who did it for honorable reasons. Others had difficulties finding other employment. Some wanted help with money for college. Few spent time sleeping in the dirt or sand.

I'm also realistic about what the military does. They follow orders which usually involve projecting American power. That may be a good or bad thing depending on who you talk to.

But back to the point, does Colin Kaepernick refusing to stand for the national anthem specifically insult members of the military?

Well, how would you feel if you came back from a war with half your body destroyed to face someone that refuses to show respect for the flag of the country you were defending?

Yes, they follow orders. They follow the orders they are given but they are there by choice. It doesn't matter why they made that choice. There are other choices that can be made. They could choose to not go to school, to not have a decent job (not that the military pays enough to choose it for that reason), they could choose to live off welfare. They don't. They choose to make a decision that could put them in harms way.

Have you served? Unless you have, you have no knowledge with which to judge them by. Let's see there are 6 members of my family that are in the military. All 6, have in fact, slept in the sand so please do not tell me "few". 2.7 million service members have served in Iraq and/or Afghanistan most have slept at one time in the sand. 970,000 service members have a disability as a direct result of war. They deserve our respect.

He has the right not to stand, and I still think we place way too much importance on the thoughts and opinions of a football player but to call the military "just a job" is an insult to what the majority of these men and women stand for. And what THEY stand for is a whole lot more important than what a guy with the ability to throw a ball does.
 
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I was specifically referring to the claims that somehow an insult to the US flag or national anthem is demeaning to members of the military. I've known people who served in the military. Many were those who did it for honorable reasons. Others had difficulties finding other employment. Some wanted help with money for college. Few spent time sleeping in the dirt or sand.

I'm also realistic about what the military does. They follow orders which usually involve projecting American power. That may be a good or bad thing depending on who you talk to.

But back to the point, does Colin Kaepernick refusing to stand for the national anthem specifically insult members of the military?

Why does it matter why they did it? They did it, that is the point. They were willing to sacrifice everything in their lives, including their own life when they enlisted. Does it matter that few spent time in the dirt or sand? No of course not because they would have if they were ordered too. I can't even continue without saying something that would get me banned.

I will just leave it at this I can't speak for myself, but those I know who have served, are currently serving and are just enlisting, yes refusing to stand for the National Anthem is an insult to them, just as what you have posted here would be.
 















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