Poor Sportsmanship in the NFL

[bcla]

I think this guy is a whiny, entitled doofus, but he's allowed to be that in this country.

I, however, take exception with your statement that military service is just a job. It is not. As one who served and who serves today as a civil servant alongside the men and women in uniform, I can assure you it is far more than just a job. Those who are only in it for a job don't stay long. Those who have served or are serving get that.

This has been the water-down comment of a veteran Now back to your regular programming.

I've known quite a few people in the military. I understand it's a lot of sacrifice for relatively low pay, but many I recall joined because they couldn't figure out anything else to do with their lives. I see those in the military placed on a pedestal and given wide latitude to profess what is or isn't acceptable in society because the consider it so.

I'll stand before the national anthem quietly. It doesn't particularly bother me is so done else chooses not to. I do it out of tradition and not out of any idea that I'm actually doing something that is truly meaningful. We have freedoms in our country, and why get worked up over someone taking advantage of those freedoms? We could worry about someone truly offensive like Fred Phelps.

 

[3Gsandme]

Name one specific thing the federal government does to deliberately oppress minority citizens.

And nobody says you shouldn't protest that which is wrong, but for crying out loud put the blame where it lies.

I don't even know where to start with this and I don't know how much I feel like writing an essay on this.


The flag and the anthem do not just stand for us, federally. They stand for us as a whole. As symbols. We all stand under that flag. It encompasses us all (the tired, the poor, the teeming masses). Kaepernik made a symbolic gesture. He makes no claims about specific, legalized oppression on the federal level. He said, and I quote "I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color". He is very, very clear.

Let's talk about institutionalized racism for a few minutes and then I gotta go do domestic things. Institutionalized racism is the process of social institutions (schools, banks, courts) treating people of difference races in a negative manner. There are no laws on the books promoting this. But, here's what it looks like:

Black preschoolers are more likely to be suspended than white preschoolers. Black children make up only 18% of the preschool population, but make up 50% of the suspensions.

Once the children enter school, black children are three times more likely to be suspended. Black children make up 40% of school expulsions and 2/3 of school aged children referred to law enforcement are children of color (black and hispanic).

1/5 of disabled children are black, yet 44% of disabled students placed in manual restraints are black.

Black children are 18 times more likely to be sentenced as adults than white children. 60% of children in prison are black.

White college graduates are twice as likely to find jobs as their black college grad counterparts.

People with "black sounding names" have to send out 50% more job resumes to get a call back than people with "white sounding names"

A black man is three times more likely to be searched at a routine traffic stop. On the New Jersey turnpike, while black people only make up 15% of the drivers, they make up 40% of the stops and 73% of the arrests even though they don't break traffic laws at higher rates than whites.

If a black person kills a white person they are two times more likely to receive the death penalty than a white person who kills a black person.


This is why Kaepernik didn't stand. And that's just a tiny, tiny fraction. None of those things are legally condoned by the federal government, but they happen anyhow. None of this is okay, but even someone who is a multi-millionaire doesn't really have a prayer of solving any of those problems on his own. What could he do?

 

[3Gsandme]

There are no certainties in life. But, the odds are quite long here.

There's no way you can put odds on it.

That's like saying I'd be happier if I was born in Guam. We have literally no way of knowing because there is no actual way to control for a study like that. I wasn't born in Guam. I was born in Ohio. Kaepernik wasn't born in England and exposed to soccer. He was born in the United States and exposed to football.

 

[Unas]

Name one specific thing the federal government does to deliberately oppress minority citizens.

And nobody says you shouldn't protest that which is wrong, but for crying out loud put the blame where it lies.

Invalidating provisions of voting rights act.
Supporting gerrymandering.

 

[bcla]

A lot of World Class athletes completely wash out of sports that appear to require skill sets very similar to the ONE they've actually mastered. And this guy in particular was really only good at football - his specialty - for a couple of years.

Kaepernick had multiple baseball scholarship offers and was a highly regarded player. He was drafted by the Cubs in the later rounds, but that was probably because he had already committed to Nevada and they were taking a chance that maybe they could sign him. The MLB player draft has no declaration process, so it's possible for players to be drafted and still play baseball in college. If they don't sign, they're eligible again. Some players are drafted multiple times.

 

[bcla]

There's no way you can put odds on it.

That's like saying I'd be happier if I was born in Guam. We have literally no way of knowing because there is no actual way to control for a study like that. I wasn't born in Guam. I was born in Ohio. Kaepernik wasn't born in England and exposed to soccer. He was born in the United States and exposed to football.

He was a star three sport (football, baseball, basketball) athlete in HS. I think he could have excelled in sports where throwing or running was key.

 

[Geoff_M]

He said, and I quote "I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color". He is very, very clear.

Actually, that statement is very, very generalized and vague.

 

[EMAW_KSU]

He was a star three sport (football, baseball, basketball) athlete in HS. I think he could have excelled in sports where throwing or running was key.

What does the sports he played in high school have to do with not standing for the Nation Anthem?

 

[bcla]

What does the sports he played in high school have to do with not standing for the Nation Anthem?

The discussion went off into a tangent about whether or not his athletic talent might have translated to other sports. He's 6'5" and could throw a 92 MPH fastball in HS. He also runs well although he doesn't have great acceleration. He is an athlete, and could have found something he was good at regardless of where he was born.

However, right now his problem is between the ears. In a few short years he totally forgot how to play quarterback.

 

[JoeA]

A lot of World Class athletes completely wash out of sports that appear to require skill sets very similar to the ONE they've actually mastered. And this guy in particular was really only good at football - his specialty - for a couple of years.

Kaepernick had multiple baseball scholarship offers and was a highly regarded player. He was drafted by the Cubs in the later rounds, but that was probably because he had already committed to Nevada and they were taking a chance that maybe they could sign him. The MLB player draft has no declaration process, so it's possible for players to be drafted and still play baseball in college. If they don't sign, they're eligible again. Some players are drafted multiple times.

Russell Wilson was drafted by the Colorado Rockies and "washed out" but he now has a shinny Super Bowl ring. I personally think it's a stretch to think that being athletic transfers across sports. I am positive that many pro NFL'er don't have the endurance to be a major player on the soccer scene, for example.

 

[Magpie]

I don't even know where to start with this and I don't know how much I feel like writing an essay on this.


The flag and the anthem do not just stand for us, federally. They stand for us as a whole. As symbols. We all stand under that flag. It encompasses us all (the tired, the poor, the teeming masses). Kaepernik made a symbolic gesture. He makes no claims about specific, legalized oppression on the federal level. He said, and I quote "I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color". He is very, very clear.

Let's talk about institutionalized racism for a few minutes and then I gotta go do domestic things. Institutionalized racism is the process of social institutions (schools, banks, courts) treating people of difference races in a negative manner. There are no laws on the books promoting this. But, here's what it looks like:

Black preschoolers are more likely to be suspended than white preschoolers. Black children make up only 18% of the preschool population, but make up 50% of the suspensions.

Once the children enter school, black children are three times more likely to be suspended. Black children make up 40% of school expulsions and 2/3 of school aged children referred to law enforcement are children of color (black and hispanic).

1/5 of disabled children are black, yet 44% of disabled students placed in manual restraints are black.

Black children are 18 times more likely to be sentenced as adults than white children. 60% of children in prison are black.

White college graduates are twice as likely to find jobs as their black college grad counterparts.

People with "black sounding names" have to send out 50% more job resumes to get a call back than people with "white sounding names"

A black man is three times more likely to be searched at a routine traffic stop. On the New Jersey turnpike, while black people only make up 15% of the drivers, they make up 40% of the stops and 73% of the arrests even though they don't break traffic laws at higher rates than whites.

If a black person kills a white person they are two times more likely to receive the death penalty than a white person who kills a black person.


This is why Kaepernik didn't stand. And that's just a tiny, tiny fraction. None of those things are legally condoned by the federal government, but they happen anyhow. None of this is okay, but even someone who is a multi-millionaire doesn't really have a prayer of solving any of those problems on his own. What could he do?

Well said!

Yesterday, our sermon at church was about race. The pastor introduced the concept of the Invisible Knapsack:

https://www.deanza.edu/faculty/lewisjulie/White Priviledge Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack.pdf

And asked us to raise our hand if a series of statement were true for us.

Statements like:

I can go shopping alone most of the time, pretty well assured that I will not be followed or harassed.

Whether I use checks, credit cards or cash, I can count on my skin color not to work against the appearance of financial reliability.

I can be sure that if I need legal or medical help, my race will not work against me.

I can swear, or dress in second hand clothes, or not answer letters, without having people attribute these choices to the bad morals, the poverty or the illiteracy of my race.

I can take a job with an affirmative action employer without having my co-workers on the job suspect that I got it because of my race.

I can worry about racism without being seen as self-interested or self-seeking.

Etc.

So, what could Kaepernik do? Exactly what he's doing. Namely, think about it and come up with a way to make a public statement about a perceived wrong. Was it the best way? Maybe not, but it sure seems to have got people talking. I didn't like it when I saw it on the news this morning, as I thought it was unnecessarily divisive and played into the whole "they aren't REAL Americans" thing. But reading over this thread, I find myself becoming more sympathetic and supportive of his efforts.

I was raised Quaker. I could never dismiss the value of protest, especially not peaceful, silent protest that invites others to ask what you're protesting. And I certainly can't dismiss the power of one person speaking up and saying, "this is wrong!" One individual's protest doesn't seem like much, but one person speaking up can inspire another person to speak up. And when a million voices speak up, that's when you see real change happen.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

Actually, that statement is very, very generalized and vague.

Exactly

 

[Gumbo4x4]

I don't even know where to start with this and I don't know how much I feel like writing an essay on this.


The flag and the anthem do not just stand for us, federally. They stand for us as a whole. As symbols. We all stand under that flag. It encompasses us all (the tired, the poor, the teeming masses). Kaepernik made a symbolic gesture. He makes no claims about specific, legalized oppression on the federal level. He said, and I quote "I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color". He is very, very clear.

Let's talk about institutionalized racism for a few minutes and then I gotta go do domestic things. Institutionalized racism is the process of social institutions (schools, banks, courts) treating people of difference races in a negative manner. There are no laws on the books promoting this. But, here's what it looks like:

Black preschoolers are more likely to be suspended than white preschoolers. Black children make up only 18% of the preschool population, but make up 50% of the suspensions.

Once the children enter school, black children are three times more likely to be suspended. Black children make up 40% of school expulsions and 2/3 of school aged children referred to law enforcement are children of color (black and hispanic).

1/5 of disabled children are black, yet 44% of disabled students placed in manual restraints are black.

Black children are 18 times more likely to be sentenced as adults than white children. 60% of children in prison are black.

White college graduates are twice as likely to find jobs as their black college grad counterparts.

People with "black sounding names" have to send out 50% more job resumes to get a call back than people with "white sounding names"

A black man is three times more likely to be searched at a routine traffic stop. On the New Jersey turnpike, while black people only make up 15% of the drivers, they make up 40% of the stops and 73% of the arrests even though they don't break traffic laws at higher rates than whites.

If a black person kills a white person they are two times more likely to receive the death penalty than a white person who kills a black person.


This is why Kaepernik didn't stand. And that's just a tiny, tiny fraction. None of those things are legally condoned by the federal government, but they happen anyhow. None of this is okay, but even someone who is a multi-millionaire doesn't really have a prayer of solving any of those problems on his own. What could he do?

You & I will have to agree to disagree on what that flag represents. I do not believe refusing to stand for the National Anthem has a thing to do with any of the things you listed out, nor do those things exist exclusively due to "oppression".

 

[Klayfish]

I haven't had time to read the whole thread, and don't want to dive into the political and social statements of it. My only comment is that I find the timing of his actions very odd. This movement he's taking a stand on has been going on for a while, and he chose to say nothing previously. However, from a football perspective, he was falling off a cliff. Rumors were swirling that he would be cut, and if not, is going to be back up to Blaine Gabbert. From a football career perspective, that's insulting enough, being a back up to Blaine Gabbert. He's with a coach who was accused of being a racist when he was in Philadelphia (I lived there at the time and the talk radio was lit up with that talk). So now that he speaks out, how would it look for the 49ers and Chip Kelly if they cut him? I don't know what the truth really is, but from this distance it sure seems curious timing

 

[johnsontrio]

His team owners and management need to decide if this is appropriate behavior on the part of their employees. There are rules about what players wear on travel days, etc and the NYY don't even allow their players to have facial hair. If this is not behavior befitting their organization, they need to set some standards and enforce them. He, like everyone else, is entitled to their own opinion, but most adults have to express them on their own time and dime.

 

[Magpie]

His team owners and management need to decide if this is appropriate behavior on the part of their employees. There are rules about what players wear on travel days, etc and the NYY don't even allow their players to have facial hair. If this is not behavior befitting their organization, they need to set some standards and enforce them. He, like everyone else, is entitled to their own opinion, but most adults have to express them on their own time and dime.

His team owners and management do not need to decide, because they've already decided:

The 49ers issued a statement about Kaepernick's decision: "The national anthem is and always will be a special part of the pre-game ceremony. It is an opportunity to honor our country and reflect on the great liberties we are afforded as its citizens. In respecting such American principles as freedom of religion and freedom of expression, we recognize the right of an individual to choose and participate, or not, in our celebration of the national anthem."

Niners coach Chip Kelly told reporters Saturday that Kaepernick's decision not to stand during the national anthem is "his right as a citizen" and said "it's not my right to tell him not to do something."

The NFL also released a statement, obtained by NFL Media Insider Ian Rapoport: "Players are encouraged but not required to stand during the playing of the national anthem."

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap30...ck-explains-why-he-sat-during-national-anthem

They've made it very clear that this is a non-issue.

 

[SMD]

I haven't had time to read the whole thread, and don't want to dive into the political and social statements of it. My only comment is that I find the timing of his actions very odd. This movement he's taking a stand on has been going on for a while, and he chose to say nothing previously. However, from a football perspective, he was falling off a cliff. Rumors were swirling that he would be cut, and if not, is going to be back up to Blaine Gabbert. From a football career perspective, that's insulting enough, being a back up to Blaine Gabbert. He's with a coach who was accused of being a racist when he was in Philadelphia (I lived there at the time and the talk radio was lit up with that talk). So now that he speaks out, how would it look for the 49ers and Chip Kelly if they cut him? I don't know what the truth really is, but from this distance it sure seems curious timing

He hasn't played in 9 months. Just because he didn't want to make a statement on something 9 months ago doesn't mean he shouldn't be allowed to do it now.

 

[bcla]

Russell Wilson was drafted by the Colorado Rockies and "washed out" but he now has a shinny Super Bowl ring. I personally think it's a stretch to think that being athletic transfers across sports. I am positive that many pro NFL'er don't have the endurance to be a major player on the soccer scene, for example.

Sure there are no guarantees. Success often has to do with good fortune and randomness. Nobody really saw Kaepernick as a blue chip QB recruit. However, he had all the tangibles, and that's all that one can ask. He might not have had the best chance, but he would have had a chance.

For instance, I've heard about ice hockey and the birth dates of players at the highest level corresponding to those who were the oldest in junior hockey levels. That's totally random when someone is born.

 

[DizBelle]

I don't even know where to start with this and I don't know how much I feel like writing an essay on this.


The flag and the anthem do not just stand for us, federally. They stand for us as a whole. As symbols. We all stand under that flag. It encompasses us all (the tired, the poor, the teeming masses). Kaepernik made a symbolic gesture. He makes no claims about specific, legalized oppression on the federal level. He said, and I quote "I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color". He is very, very clear.

Let's talk about institutionalized racism for a few minutes and then I gotta go do domestic things. Institutionalized racism is the process of social institutions (schools, banks, courts) treating people of difference races in a negative manner. There are no laws on the books promoting this. But, here's what it looks like:

Black preschoolers are more likely to be suspended than white preschoolers. Black children make up only 18% of the preschool population, but make up 50% of the suspensions.

Once the children enter school, black children are three times more likely to be suspended. Black children make up 40% of school expulsions and 2/3 of school aged children referred to law enforcement are children of color (black and hispanic).

1/5 of disabled children are black, yet 44% of disabled students placed in manual restraints are black.

Black children are 18 times more likely to be sentenced as adults than white children. 60% of children in prison are black.

White college graduates are twice as likely to find jobs as their black college grad counterparts.

People with "black sounding names" have to send out 50% more job resumes to get a call back than people with "white sounding names"

A black man is three times more likely to be searched at a routine traffic stop. On the New Jersey turnpike, while black people only make up 15% of the drivers, they make up 40% of the stops and 73% of the arrests even though they don't break traffic laws at higher rates than whites.

If a black person kills a white person they are two times more likely to receive the death penalty than a white person who kills a black person.


This is why Kaepernik didn't stand. And that's just a tiny, tiny fraction. None of those things are legally condoned by the federal government, but they happen anyhow. None of this is okay, but even someone who is a multi-millionaire doesn't really have a prayer of solving any of those problems on his own. What could he do?

Flame suit on because I'm sure I'm going to get raked over the coals.....

These statistics are not very meaningful without context or additional data.

"Black children make up only 18% of the preschool population, but make up 50% of the suspensions." - What is the racial makeup of preschoolers that are brought to the administration's attention and considered for suspension? What if 50% of the kids brought up for suspension were black? What if it was 75%? Would the statistic be as impactful? I suppose you would then say that the white kids are just let off the hook to begin with and never even considered for suspension. However, you can't know that, can you?

"1/5 of disabled children are black, yet 44% of disabled students placed in manual restraints are black." - Not a very meaningful statistic unless you know what those disabilities are and why restraints may be required. You cannot equate one disability with another.

"Black children are 18 times more likely to be sentenced as adults than white children. 60% of children in prison are black." - You would need to know what the crimes were in order for this statistic to have meaning.

"White college graduates are twice as likely to find jobs as their black college grad counterparts." - is everything else about the college graduates the same? Do they all have the same degree with the same GPA and same outside activities? You need this other information to make a valid comparison. Person A with Degree C is not the same as Person B with Degree C.

"People with "black sounding names" have to send out 50% more job resumes to get a call back than people with "white sounding names" " - same issue as with college graduates.

"On the New Jersey turnpike, while black people only make up 15% of the drivers, they make up 40% of the stops and 73% of the arrests even though they don't break traffic laws at higher rates than whites." - one stretch of road doesn't seem like enough of a sample.

"If a black person kills a white person they are two times more likely to receive the death penalty than a white person who kills a black person." - More context of the crimes is needed to validate this. Doesn't the heinousness of the crime and the remousefulness of the guilty factor into the dealth penalty?

The bottom line is that you can't blame race alone (and maybe not at all). There just isn't enough information to know.

 

[3Gsandme]

Flame suit on because I'm sure I'm going to get raked over the coals.....

These statistics are not very meaningful without context or additional data.

"Black children make up only 18% of the preschool population, but make up 50% of the suspensions." - What is the racial makeup of preschoolers that are brought to the administration's attention and considered for suspension? What if 50% of the kids brought up for suspension were black? What if it was 75%? Would the statistic be as impactful? I suppose you would then say that the white kids are just let off the hook to begin with and never even considered for suspension. However, you can't know that, can you?

"1/5 of disabled children are black, yet 44% of disabled students placed in manual restraints are black." - Not a very meaningful statistic unless you know what those disabilities are and why restraints may be required. You cannot equate one disability with another.

"Black children are 18 times more likely to be sentenced as adults than white children. 60% of children in prison are black." - You would need to know what the crimes were in order for this statistic to have meaning.

"White college graduates are twice as likely to find jobs as their black college grad counterparts." - is everything else about the college graduates the same? Do they all have the same degree with the same GPA and same outside activities? You need this other information to make a valid comparison. Person A with Degree C is not the same as Person B with Degree C.

"People with "black sounding names" have to send out 50% more job resumes to get a call back than people with "white sounding names" " - same issue as with college graduates.

"On the New Jersey turnpike, while black people only make up 15% of the drivers, they make up 40% of the stops and 73% of the arrests even though they don't break traffic laws at higher rates than whites." - one stretch of road doesn't seem like enough of a sample.

"If a black person kills a white person they are two times more likely to receive the death penalty than a white person who kills a black person." - More context of the crimes is needed to validate this. Doesn't the heinousness of the crime and the remousefulness of the guilty factor into the dealth penalty?

The bottom line is that you can't blame race alone (and maybe not at all).

You're reaching. I can understand that you need to, but that's what you're doing. It's easier for you to dismiss this facts out of hand than to think about what they're saying. And that is just one set of facts from one fairly neutral website.

When charged with the same crime a black man is six times more likely to go to jail than a white man.

Black people are sentenced to 20% longer prison terms than their white counterparts who commit the same or similar crimes.

Actual studies have shown that black children are more likely to be dehumanized than white chilren and less likely to be considered innocent than white children. It was a government study that found the disparity between black and white children in regards to school discipline. Additionally, black students were often perceived as being older than their white counterparts in a study from Harvard University.

It really takes zero time to source this stuff.