Political: Iraqi Soccer Players Mad About Bush Ad

[richiebaseball]

Originally posted by peachgirl
No, I'm saying just what I said...it's irrelevent.

I'm on a quest to stop enabling those who want to sidestep the issue being discussed. We're discussing the use of the Iraq and Afghanistan flags and the use of the Iraqi's playing soccer in order to further Bush's political agenda.

A film made by MM has nothing to do with that.

http://www.johnkerry.com/video/console.php?video=050204_lifetimead#050204_lifetimead

Play the ad titled "Lifetime." This ad features touts Senator Kerry's service in Vietnam. Featured in this ad is a picture of John Kerry and 19 other Swift Boat officers. 12 of the officers pictured consider Senator Kerry unfit for command and have asked him to stop using them to further his political agenda. Would this be the kind of issue you would discuss?

Richard

 

[peachgirl]

Originally posted by richiebaseball
http://www.johnkerry.com/video/console.php?video=050204_lifetimead#050204_lifetimead

Play the ad titled "Lifetime." This ad features touts Senator Kerry's service in Vietnam. Featured in this ad is a picture of John Kerry and 19 other Swift Boat officers. 12 of the officers pictured consider Senator Kerry unfit for command and have asked him to stop using them to further his political agenda. Would this be the kind of issue you would discuss?

Richard

Sure...the veterans didn't want their picture used and it should not have been. Btw, I'm having some trouble getting links to work, but I believe I know the ad you're talking about.

I don't attach any subversive motives on Kerry's part, but no unless they all agree, it shouldn't be used.

The soccer team needs to get over it. There is nothing in the ad that isn't true. They can thank the American soldiers for their freedom.

It doesn't matter if it's true. It's their country, their soccer team and since "WE" supposedly gave them all this freedom, let's let them use it. They don't want their team associated with a Bush ad, then he ought to stop it.

 

[LisaSt]

Why should they than the US for thier freedom some of them may not have wanted it so why should they be thankfull for something they may or may not have wanted. Do youknow they all wanted to be freed from SH no so that is a little biased to be saying that they should all be thankfull. How do youknow some of them aren't actually Iraqui soldiers that are playing for the soccer team how would that make you feel? Would you then say they shouldn't be able to participate in the olympics because of this. I think it was very wrong for the ad to be run like this without the express written approval from anyone in the ad or for the use of the countries flags etc.

 

[Elwood Blues]

Originally posted by LisaSt
Why should they than the US for thier freedom some of them may not have wanted it so why should they be thankfull for something they may or may not have wanted. Do youknow they all wanted to be freed from SH no so that is a little biased to be saying that they should all be thankfull. How do youknow some of them aren't actually Iraqui soldiers that are playing for the soccer team how would that make you feel? Would you then say they shouldn't be able to participate in the olympics because of this. I think it was very wrong for the ad to be run like this without the express written approval from anyone in the ad or for the use of the countries flags etc.

Then you think it's wrong for Kerry to run ads with images of people in them that don't want those images used.

Right?

 

[wvrevy]

Originally posted by Elwood Blues
Then you think it's wrong for Kerry to run ads with images of people in them that don't want those images used.

Right?

Typical argument from the right...You can't defend your candidate, so you try to attack the other one

Yes, Bush was wrong to use the Iraqi soccer team in the ad without first making sure that they wouldn't immediately go home post-olympics and join with the insurgents. It doesn't take a political expert to see that.

End of story.

 

[rcyannacci]

Originally posted by treesinger
I would hope that, were the roles reversed, I would be eternally grateful to the Iraqi army for freeing us from oppression. Yes, I would grieve for those we lost. But, in any revolution, many would die to secure the freedom and the future of the country. That another country would be the one to fight the revolution doesn't change that fact. The good, especially with the passage of time, FAR outweighs the cost.

I think it would be best if we all recognized that we are not the ones in this situation and that these type of hypotheticals aren't particularly constructive. Our worldview and the Iraqi worldview are completely different. Iraqis grow up in and negotiate a completely different environment than ours- social, religious, geopolitical, etc. To guess how we would react to an outside force coming into our country (whether we'd label them aggressors or liberators) would only reflect our own set of circumstances, not theirs.

I believe the only thing to do is to take these Iraqis at their word, assume them to be the best at determining what is good for their citizenship, and not call them out for not doing what we think they ought to do. Anything less is imperialism, an assumption that we are the most intelligent, most compassionate, etc. And, it's this kind of position that angers so many people about US foreign policy.

 

[Jimbo]

Originally posted by wvrevy
Maybe Rove should have, you know, made sure these guys would have supported the idea before using them in a campaign commercial

I finally saw the commercial this morning, and talk about making something out of nothing! First of all, "these guys" aren't used in the ad. Their flag, along with the flag of Afghanistan, is shown briefly. That's it. The team wasn't "used as a prop." The team wasn't mentioned at all.

People should see the ad, or at least read a transcript of it, before they bust out the ROTFL smilies.

 

[LisaSt]

Elwood unless I give my express written consent to someone to use my face name etc in an ad or any type of commercial etc I would not want it used and that goes for anyone or any company I don't care if it the damn pope for crying out loud. Unless you have permission you don't do it end of story.

 

[Jimbo]

Originally posted by wvrevy
Typical argument from the right...You can't defend your candidate, so you try to attack the other one

Yes, Bush was wrong to use the Iraqi soccer team in the ad without first making sure that they wouldn't immediately go home post-olympics and join with the insurgents. It doesn't take a political expert to see that.

End of story.

And you are wrong, really wrong. There's no Iraqi team in the ad. You should have seen the ad first, hey?

 

[Elwood Blues]

Originally posted by wvrevy
Typical argument from the right...You can't defend your candidate, so you try to attack the other one

No, I'm just looking for consistency. If you think it's wrong for one side to do it, then you must think it's wrong for the other side to do it. Otherwise, you're a hypocrite.

Are you saying the right has a monopoly on such tactics?

Yes, Bush was wrong to use the Iraqi soccer team in the ad without first making sure that they wouldn't immediately go home post-olympics and join with the insurgents. It doesn't take a political expert to see that.

Ya think that was it? Really? There was no other possible motive? Maybe no motive at all. How about just an example of how things are different (for the soccer players) without SH's son's smashing their feet or making them play with concrete soccer balls if they played poorly.

Nice work.

Have you seen the ad? Is it available somewhere on line so I can see it?

 

[Elwood Blues]

Originally posted by LisaSt
Elwood unless I give my express written consent to someone to use my face name etc in an ad or any type of commercial etc I would not want it used and that goes for anyone or any company I don't care if it the damn pope for crying out loud. Unless you have permission you don't do it end of story.

Oh you'll get no argument from me on that for sure.

But I want to see Kerry pull any ads that contain images of people that haven't given their permission for their images to be used.

 

[Jimbo]

The ad, called "Victory", is on www.georgebush.com. Once you'll see it you'll wonder what the fuss is all about. It's an inspiring piece of work.

And it's obvious that someone is using the Iraqi soccer team for political reasons. But it's clearly not this ad, because it doesn't show them, and doesn't even mention them.

So who is using the soccer team?

 

[faithinkarma]

It matters not one bit what WE think of the ad. If they find it offensive, it is their right to feel that way. I get so sick and tired of this constant excuse of " that's not the way I see it, therefore it is not offensive" . When someone is offended or hurt the offender does not get to continue to do it just because to them it is not an insult. I simply do not understand what is so difficult about that concept.

In a civilized society what the hell is wrong with acknowledging that someone else might actually look at something in a way we cannot understand and granting them the freedom to feel that way? Do we get to dismiss it simply because we do not find it insulting?

How many times have we all unwittingly insulted or hurt someone in our own lifetimes? Seems to me the thing to do when that happens is to apologize and move on. Not declare the other person's feelings invalid because they do not mimic our own.

 

[Elwood Blues]

Originally posted by Jimbo
The ad, called "Victory", is on www.georgebush.com.

This is so funny!!! I clicked on that link and Norton detected an intrusion attempt from that site!!!

Must be a right-wing conspiracy to get me to endorse Bush because I accessed the site.

 

[MJames41]

Originally posted by faithinkarma
It matters not one bit what WE think of the ad. If they find it offensive, it is their right to feel that way. I get so sick and tired of this constant excuse of " that's not the way I see it, therefore it is not offensive" . When someone is offended or hurt the offender does not get to continue to do it just because to them it is not an insult. I simply do not understand what is so difficult about that concept.

Have you seen the commercial? There are no Iraqi's in the ad. There is the flag of Iraq and the flag of Afghanistan. If I get upset because Kerry uses the US flag in his commercials, if I find it offensive, does that mean he should change it? After all, don't I have as much standing for our flag as the Iraqi players have? I don't understand this.

Could they be upset? Of course. Does it mean the ad is offensive? Take a look at it and see. I don't think it is. If the Iraqi teams had actually been used in the ads, they would have a more solid point, but they are not. And, it does matter what we think of the ad. If we didn't do anything that someone would find offensive, we would not be able to do anything - period. Some people are offended when you say "hi" to them - should we stop all social discourse? Some are offended when you wear a certain color - should we not go out in public? If you think that is taking it too far, ask an Irish Catholic what they think of the color orange, or an Irish Protestant what they think of the color green.

 

[faithinkarma]

Yes, I have seen the commercial. If you cannot allow that another nation has the right to be offended that someone is using their flag to promote themselves politically, there is not point in trying to explain. If you cannot understand that the Iraqi people might possibly not want someone bragging about what has been done in their country, there is no point in trying to explain. If you cannot understand that these people know what they are headed back to after the olympics and do not rejoice at the prospect, there is no point in trying to explain. If you think that comparing their very deeply held feelings about their own country is akin to those who get offended when you say Hi to them, there is no point in trying to explain.

You seem to think that using the flag is somehow more acceptable than using footage of the actual people. I don't understand how you can believe that using someone's national symbol is less offensive than using film of the people. Once again, what you think does not matter to them...it is not your flag being used by another country is it?

 

[MJames41]

So, does that mean the Kerry should resign from the campaign because I find his campaign offensive? After all, it's my country. Or should Bush resign because others find his campaign offensive? It's there country as well. Your logic would say that would be so.

I also have deep feelings about my country - I almost died for it. I have seen how the symbol of my country has been used, and in many cases I was offended by it. Yes, there is no need to explain - I do understand. However, I also understand that a few people do not make a country, even if it is the entire team.

My flag has been used by many countries, often. They have not stopped burning US flags in Iran, in Libya, and in some places in Iraq. They have not stopped burning it in North Korea, nor in China. Yes, it is my flag being used.

 

[DawnCt1]

Originally posted by faithinkarma
Yes, I have seen the commercial. If you cannot allow that another nation has the right to be offended that someone is using their flag to promote themselves politically, there is not point in trying to explain. If you cannot understand that the Iraqi people might possibly not want someone bragging about what has been done in their country, there is no point in trying to explain. If you cannot understand that these people know what they are headed back to after the olympics and do not rejoice at the prospect, there is no point in trying to explain. If you think that comparing their very deeply held feelings about their own country is akin to those who get offended when you say Hi to them, there is no point in trying to explain.

And if YOU think that the Iraqi soccer team represents the entire country of Iraq, then there is no point in trying to explain.

 

[richiebaseball]

Originally posted by faithinkarma
Yes, I have seen the commercial. If you cannot allow that another nation has the right to be offended that someone is using their flag to promote themselves politically, there is not point in trying to explain. If you cannot understand that the Iraqi people might possibly not want someone bragging about what has been done in their country, there is no point in trying to explain. If you cannot understand that these people know what they are headed back to after the olympics and do not rejoice at the prospect, there is no point in trying to explain. If you think that comparing their very deeply held feelings about their own country is akin to those who get offended when you say Hi to them, there is no point in trying to explain.

You seem to think that using the flag is somehow more acceptable than using footage of the actual people. I don't understand how you can believe that using someone's national symbol is less offensive than using film of the people. Once again, what you think does not matter to them...it is not your flag being used by another country is it?

I guess we could just burn it. That might be okay.

Just one man's opinion.

Richard

 

[faithinkarma]

How foolish I am dawn, I should have realized that you would be such a better spokesperson for the Iraqi.