Pentax K100D or Sony DSLR-A100

[ukcatfan]

I have one last question to ask. Have you actually handled any of them? If not, I would not make a decision yet. You do not want to get it only to realize that you hate the way it feels in your hands. This is part of what sold me on the K100D, but I did not even consider the A100 b/c it was out of my range.

Kevin

 

[handicap18]

Thanks guys, for an interesting and lively debate.

Unfortunately I am still deliberating which way to go. After listening to your great input and doing some resarch myself I think it will boil down to the lenses.
I intend to eventually get a 18 - 200mm, 50mm prime, 100mm macro and something up to 300ish (In or around these values. Please feel free to comment on my choices )
Ideally Id like to buy pre-owned for these.

My problem is - Which range of Pentax lenses will suit the K100/10d and still retain the auto focus, exposure etc?

Also do all the Minolta range of lenses retain the full functionality of the Alpha?

The relative ease of picking these lenses up pre-owned and them actually working well on the new body will go a long way in helping me decide which way to go.

I too would not go the 18-200mm route unless you go Nikon. The Tamron and Sigma 18-200mm's while a nice range are only going to be good outdoors in good light once you get past 130mm or so. The widest aperture is f/6.3 which is not wide at all which will make focusing that much harder. You'd be better off with the Sigma 18-125mm. Had Nikon not come out with an 18-135mm I would have gotten the Sigma 18-125mm.

Something else to keep in mind regarding 3rd party lenses. While they do make lenses with Nikon and Canon mounts, they do also make many with Pentax mounts. I don't think I can say the same for Sony's Minolta mount. Since its currently only 1 dSLR body it will be much much harder to find 3rd party lenses for the Sony. I could be wrong though. Just something to think about and research if your thinking about 3rd party lenses.

I'm not suggesting all your lenses need to be 3rd party, but Sigma, Tamron and Tokina do make some great lenses that are definately worth buying and stack up just as good as some of the higher priced camera makers lenses.

 

[steery1]

I have one last question to ask. Have you actually handled any of them? If not, I would not make a decision yet. You do not want to get it only to realize that you hate the way it feels in your hands.

Have handled the K100D and found it quite comfortable. Noticed it was considerably heavier than the Canon 400D. I wasn't sure if this was a good thing or not.
I haven't had a chance to "feel" the Sony yet. The last one sold half an hour before I arrived in the store.
I'll be out and about on my quest tomorrow though and hopefully I can handle them both together and see how I feel then.

 

[steery1]

I too would not go the 18-200mm route unless you go Nikon. The Tamron and Sigma 18-200mm's while a nice range are only going to be good outdoors in good light once you get past 130mm or so. The widest aperture is f/6.3 which is not wide at all which will make focusing that much harder. You'd be better off with the Sigma 18-125mm. Had Nikon not come out with an 18-135mm I would have gotten the Sigma 18-125mm.

That sounds like good advice. Thanks

 

[ukcatfan]

Have handled the K100D and found it quite comfortable. Noticed it was considerably heavier than the Canon 400D. I wasn't sure if this was a good thing or not.
I haven't had a chance to "feel" the Sony yet. The last one sold half an hour before I arrived in the store.
I'll be out and about on my quest tomorrow though and hopefully I can handle them both together and see how I feel then.

The weight has to come down to personal preferences. The K100D and the A100 are almost the exact same weight if I remember correctly. The K10D is a little heavier. I personally like that, but you may not.

I had never taken a serious look at the A100 reviews, but now that I have, it might not be as usable at high ISOs as C,N,&P cameras. Canon generally wins this category followed closely by Nikon and then Pentax. For it to have a specific mention in the reviews would make me check it out some more. The Pentax models have been praised for getting so close to Canon's noise levels where the Sony was criticized. It could just be the mood the reviewers were in, but still worth researching if you plan to use that.

One last thing to add. The K10D's JPG processing seems to be tuned towards the user doing some PP work where the K100D's is more geared towards an end product. If you plan to use JPG with the K10D either plan to do some PP or manually change the JPG default settings towards more sharpening, saturation, etc. I personally shoot RAW unless I am running out of space or want more frames for a burst shot.

Kevin

 

[steery1]

One last thing to add. The K10D's JPG processing seems to be tuned towards the user doing some PP work where the K100D's is more geared towards an end product. If you plan to use JPG with the K10D either plan to do some PP or manually change the JPG default settings towards more sharpening, saturation, etc

Where did you find this ukcatfan? I missed that one.
I know little about shooting RAW and PP (the last time I picked up an SLR in anger was maybe 10 years ago before that was widely available.
But I will definitely be finding out about it soon.

 

[Anewman]

I had never taken a serious look at the A100 reviews, but now that I have, it might not be as usable at high ISOs as C,N,&P cameras.

From DPREVIEWS review of the K10d(page 23)

As well as shooting our studio test scene at each camera's lowest sensitivity we also shot it at ISO 800 and 1600. At ISO 800 the K10D delivers about the same detail as the Nikon D80 and Sony DSLR-A100 with the Canon EOS 30D looking cleaner and sharper. At ISO 1600 it's more difficult to pick a winner, levels of detail are similar however the Canon EOS 30D perhaps has cleaner shadow (dark) areas.

Would that also mean the you feel that the K10D is also not as usable at high ISOs??

One last thing to add. The K10D's JPG processing seems to be tuned towards the user doing some PP work where the K100D's is more geared towards an end product. If you plan to use JPG with the K10D either plan to do some PP or manually change the JPG default settings towards more sharpening, saturation, etc.

Also from the K10d review

Cons
Turning up sharpness setting doesn't deliver crisper edges

Pentax may well have been aiming for a smooth film-like appearance but I at least feel that the inability to tweak this out by increasing sharpness is a mistake. That said it's unlikely you'll see this difference in any print up to A3 size, it's a 100% view thing so you have to decide if that's important to you or not. To get that absolute crisp appearance you'll need to shoot RAW,

 

[ukcatfan]

From DPREVIEWS review of the K10d(page 23)

Quote:
As well as shooting our studio test scene at each camera's lowest sensitivity we also shot it at ISO 800 and 1600. At ISO 800 the K10D delivers about the same detail as the Nikon D80 and Sony DSLR-A100 with the Canon EOS 30D looking cleaner and sharper. At ISO 1600 it's more difficult to pick a winner, levels of detail are similar however the Canon EOS 30D perhaps has cleaner shadow (dark) areas.


Would that also mean the you feel that the K10D is also not as usable at high ISOs??

I was basing my comments on the A100 review where Phil says: "The A100's sensor is at its best between ISO 100 and 400, delivering fairly noise free and sharp images with plenty of detail (especially if you shoot RAW). Above this and the A100 loses out in comparisons to Canon's excellent CMOS sensor which maintains more detail and exhibits less noise." and also on Jeff at DCResources A100 review comments of:

"What I didn't care for:

A bit noisier than the competition (especially Canon) at ISO 800 and above
Color saturation/exposure changes when ISO goes from 800 to 1600"

As I said, I am not saying that it is noisier, but it would not hurt to do a little research and some comparison shots to see if it is b/c these reviews seem to suggest that. Also, these reviews are not exactly scientific, but again, it casts some doubt, so why not look further in to it with personal trials. (BTW, when the OP goes looking, be sure to bring a blank memory card with you so you can put them through the paces and then go back home to compare)

Also from the K10d review

Quote:
Cons
Turning up sharpness setting doesn't deliver crisper edges

Pentax may well have been aiming for a smooth film-like appearance but I at least feel that the inability to tweak this out by increasing sharpness is a mistake. That said it's unlikely you'll see this difference in any print up to A3 size, it's a 100% view thing so you have to decide if that's important to you or not. To get that absolute crisp appearance you'll need to shoot RAW,

One last thing to add. The K10D's JPG processing seems to be tuned towards the user doing some PP work where the K100D's is more geared towards an end product. If you plan to use JPG with the K10D either plan to do some PP or manually change the JPG default settings towards more sharpening, saturation, etc. I personally shoot RAW unless I am running out of space or want more frames for a burst shot.

Kevin

WOW. Now I am being criticized for pointing out a weakness of a Pentax??? I just can't win around here. No hard feelings, I just thought it was funny.

Jeff spent a little more time than Phil tweaking the settings on the K10D and had this to say:

"So what's the bottom line here? Shooting JPEGs straight out of the box isn't a good idea, as they'll be soft and dull in color. You can resolve this by shooting RAW, increasing in-camera sharpening/contrast/saturation, or just using the bright image tone setting. Once you do I think you'll be more than pleased with the K10's output."

Go here to read more on what he did: http://www.dcresource.com/reviews/pentax/k10d-review/


Like I said before, the JPGs straight out of the camera are not the best on the K10D. If that is what you want, then you will need to do a little maniputation of the camera settings or go with a different camera. You could also PP, but would likely not get the best results compared to just changing the settings. It would not be an issue with me as I prefer RAW, but some do not.

Kevin

 

[Anewman]

I was basing my comments on the A100 review where Phil says...

As I said, I am not saying that it is noisier, but it would not hurt to do a little research and some comparison shots to see if it is b/c these reviews seem to suggest that.

I understand what you based your comments on, so I based my question(not answered) on comments from the same exact source "suggesting" that high ISO performance was very similar(not better) from the K10D. If it is a concern with one, why would it not be a concern with the other?

WOW. Now I am being criticized for pointing out a weakness of a Pentax??? I just can't win around here. No hard feelings, I just thought it was funny.

"Criticized"????

Nope just posting a counter opinion on a message board, imagine that...


You stated that raising in-camera sharpness fixes the lack of sharpness in out of camera jpegs from the K10d. I simply posted that at least one reviewer felt that your suggestion did not solve the issue. I do agree that the K10D produces great images if shot in RAW, as did the review I quoted.


And yes the camera was "tuned" that way

 

[jann1033]

Have handled the K100D and found it quite comfortable. Noticed it was considerably heavier than the Canon 400D. I wasn't sure if this was a good thing or not.
I haven't had a chance to "feel" the Sony yet. The last one sold half an hour before I arrived in the store.
I'll be out and about on my quest tomorrow though and hopefully I can handle them both together and see how I feel then.

remember you are going to add 1-4+lbs with a lens, another lb or 2 with a flash.to me that would be a very bad thing since my limit is around 5 lbs. others might not care. i was concerned bout the rebel xt weight with a larger lens but it pretty much takes me to the end of my range with that.

hehe.. interesting reviews... so that piece of plastic junk canon is cleaner and sharper than the pentax huh ( snicker snicker)

 

[ukcatfan]

This just reminds me why I do not take Phil's reviews too seriously. He sometimes contradicts himself, seems to let personal hang-ups influence reviews, and never seems to go that extra mile to benefit the end user. I have been the happiest with DCResource and Imaging-Resource lately. Steve's is decent, but it seems more like a functional overview than a real review.

Kevin

 

[steery1]

I kinda like this little nugget...................

DigitalCameraInfo - 11/29/2006 - reviews the 10 megapixel Sony Alpha A100 and here’s the verdict.

“The Sony α (alpha) A100 is a good value for users who want stabilization, dust control and 10 megapixels, but don’t mind a clunky interface and slow operation. It’s a snapshot camera with some very appealing bells and whistles, and it will be a very good fit for casual photographers who want a DSLR, but don’t need one.

This sort of sums me up in an unflattering way But I probably will mind "a clunky interface and slow operation"
Just about to head out to feel up a Sony, see for myself. I'll come back and let you know how I get on.

 

[steery1]

Unfortunately was not able to test out the Sony A100D. The one local camera store that did have it in stock hadn't any charge in the battery
Did look at the Pentax K10d again though (it did feel good and I was happy with the dials etc.) and noticed how considerably larger the viewfinder was than the Canon 400D.
*Think* the Sonys viewfinder is comparable with the Pentax.
As everywhere is sold out of the Sony round here I'm gonna order it from Amazon, get a good feel of it, take a few shots and if I decide I prefer the Pentax then I'll send it back.
Thats where I am at the minute and thanks to everyone who helped me reach this point.
Will let you know how I get on

 

[Groucho]

They must have that "A" setting in order to be able to do auto aperture. There are also some lenses that have no aperture ring at all. These are auto aperture lenses as well. This is not an indicator of the auto focus abilities. Check this website out http://www.photodo.com/products.html. Look at the mount section. The Pentax K SMC, Pentax K SMC-A, and Pentax K SMC-M are the manual focus mounts. The Pentax K SMC-DA, Pentax K SMC-F, Pentax K SMC-FA, and Pentax K SMC-FAJ are the auto focus mounts. All will work with the Pentax DSLRs, but may function differently. The other Pentax mounts listed are not compatible on their own, but sometimes can be used with an adapter as a MF only though. Groucho, did I say that all correctly?

I think that's pretty much all accurate. Third party lenses are generally going to be just as likely to be auto-aperture as the factory ones.

The only remotely modern lens that I'm aware of that doesn't have auto-aperture is the Zenitar 16mm fisheye... The auto-aperture came about, I think, some time in the '70s, and was required for shutter priority mode.

 

[Groucho]

Did look at the Pentax K10d again though (it did feel good and I was happy with the dials etc.) and noticed how considerably larger the viewfinder was than the Canon 400D.

The Canons generally get about the lowest marks for viewfinders and the Pentaxes get some of the best, so your observation fits in. I'm not sure about the Sony.

As for DPReview, I'm liking them less and less as time goes by. Some reviews are fairly soft on the camera, some are unnecessarily harsh... then there's Steve's, which I often like but it sometimes feels like he hasn't met a digicam that he doesn't like! But DPReview, which one of the most "complete" review sites, doesn't seem to be as really reliable as I'd like. And the forums - ugh! Lousy interface, lots of fights, and I've heard a few reports recently of people getting kicked off for what seem to be quite arbitrary reasons.

As for ISO... my understanding is that the K10D, A100, and D80 all use the same Sony 10mp sensor, so if you're shooting RAW, you should be more or less exactly the same results assuming you used exactly the same lens on each camera. It really comes down to speed, ergonomics, lenses, etc... not so much actual image quality as that's a wash.

 

[steery1]

The way I'm looking at it at the minute is...........................

Pantax K10D and Sony A100

Both have features I was on the lookout for ie - in body IS and dust reduction systems
Both have a wide selection of compatable lenses that are available pre-owned
Most other things on the two cameras being pretty equal as far as I can see.

These are features I was on the lookout for and why my search was narrowed to these two with the K100 in there too on price.

The Sony is working out about £170GBP (thats approx $330USD) more than the Pentax K10D for the body and one kit lens. Thats the price of a decent lens. Incedently the Pentax kit lens is 18-55, whereas the Sonys is 18-70

So maybe you can understand why I'm leaning towards the Sony even taking into consideration the reservations some have voiced here about Sony and their practices.

 

[Anewman]

The Sony is working out about £170GBP (thats approx $330USD) more than the Pentax K10D for the body and one kit lens. Thats the price of a decent lens. Incedently the Pentax kit lens is 18-55, whereas the Sonys is 18-70

So maybe you can understand why I'm leaning towards the Sony \

Am I reading this correctly???

the Sony is MORE EXPENSIVE???

Here in the US the Sony is on average about $200 LESS than the K10d, but if the Sony is MORE expensive I would get the Pentax.

IMO the only area where the cameras noticably differ is in the "weather seals" that the Pentax comes with, all other areas are a wash or subjective in nature(even jpeg softness on the Pentax).
Would I pay $200 extra for their seals??? Only if I had all weather sealed lenses and expected to shoot in inclimate weather on a regular basis, I am not sure if Pentax lenses are sealed or not.

 

[steery1]

The Sony is working out about £170GBP (thats approx $330USD) more than the Pentax K10D for the body and one kit lens. Thats the price of a decent lens. Incedently the Pentax kit lens is 18-55, whereas the Sonys is 18-70

Oops, sorry the Sony is working out $330USD less than the Pentax.

Cheapest I found the Sony + 18-70 kit lens = £430GBP
Cheapest I found the Pentax K10D + 18-55 kit lens = £600GBP

 

[steery1]

Its arrived!

My brand new Sony a100 arrived today. At the moment Im reading through the manual while the battery is charging. I'm just a bit excited. It feels pretty good, nice weight for me - not as heavy as the Pentax K10D but not as light as the Canon EOS 400D. Good size for my reasonably small hands

Very user friendly, no searching through hidden menus for functions - iso, multi burst etc. All there on the dials
Viewfinder is same size as the Pentax - big plus for me. Very positive initially.

On the neg side - noticed the shutter release is very clunky and loud. Dont *think* this will bother me, just an observation. (Havent tried it in multi burst, could be VERY noisy then ) May bother some who like to take indoor shots of quiet places, churches or the like.)
Shutter butten does *seem* a little awkwardly placed for me ie - not forward enough on the grip, but thats something I can get used to very easily.

Initially very positive - has the IS and anti-dust system I was after, feels good and has compatibility with past Minolta lenses that I can (hopefully) find reasonably priced pre-owned.
I can now play with it for 7 days and if its not for me I'll return it and look at the Pentax again.
Will try and post some shots later, either here or the "Show me: your first photo taken with a new camera or lens" thread

 

[ukcatfan]

On the neg side - noticed the shutter release is very clunky and loud. Dont *think* this will bother me, just an observation. (Havent tried it in multi burst, could be VERY noisy then ) May bother some who like to take indoor shots of quiet places, churches or the like.)

I do not know about the K10D, but the K100D is also a little on the loud side. We had a discussion a few months back about this. I think pretty much everyone agreed that even the loudest SLR shutter is not as annoying as the p&s owners that have strange shutter sounds like dog barks, bird chirps, chimp screams, voices, etc. so do not let that discourage you. If you like that sort of sound effect as your shutter, then no offense, it just seems that most people do not like it going off near them. I use the simulated SLR shutter sound on my p&s.

Kevin