OT - Kids not sleeping... EVER!! Update AGAIN!

[SharpMomOfTwo]

I've been up at 4am every day this week!!! I need some help here girls!!! I don't think I've had a full night sleep in over 6 months now, and my kids are 3 & 19 months! After DD19m wakes up 2-4 times a night, its DD3 waking up at 4am screaming that she wants to go downstairs - we are getting no sleep! I'm at the end of my rope, I don't know what else to do. My real problem is with DD3 getting up around 4am and screaming to go downstairs. She always wakes her sister up in the process, and I'm dealing with two crying kids. What should I do about this?? What I'm thinking is, when it happens, to get DD19m out of her crib and take her into bed with us while I leave DD3 in her room to cry it out. Now, I've NEVER let my kids cry it out really, but at this point I'll try anything - the only problem is that DD3 is a puker if she crys to long/hard so we tend to give in. Anyone else dealing with this?? How have you refrained from killing your kids?!? Seriously though, we have taken things away from her, and that works for a bit, but a week or two after she gets them back, shes back kicking and screaming to get out of her bed at 4am (sometimes 2am!!!). We have tried putting them to bed later, tried running them around all day to tire them out (that usually makes it worse!!!!!), we've tried treats and suprises, and nothing is working. DH and I talked about one of us sleeping downstairs, and the other upstairs taking care of the kids when they get up, then switching the next day. Thats all fine and good, but its not really getting to the root of the problem. Any suggestions???

 

[of2dbeach]

I've been up at 4am every day this week!!! I need some help here girls!!! I don't think I've had a full night sleep in over 6 months now, and my kids are 3 & 19 months! After DD19m wakes up 2-4 times a night, its DD3 waking up at 4am screaming that she wants to go downstairs - we are getting no sleep! I'm at the end of my rope, I don't know what else to do. My real problem is with DD3 getting up around 4am and screaming to go downstairs. She always wakes her sister up in the process, and I'm dealing with two crying kids. What should I do about this?? What I'm thinking is, when it happens, to get DD19m out of her crib and take her into bed with us while I leave DD3 in her room to cry it out. Now, I've NEVER let my kids cry it out really, but at this point I'll try anything - the only problem is that DD3 is a puker if she crys to long/hard so we tend to give in. Anyone else dealing with this?? How have you refrained from killing your kids?!? Seriously though, we have taken things away from her, and that works for a bit, but a week or two after she gets them back, shes back kicking and screaming to get out of her bed at 4am (sometimes 2am!!!). We have tried putting them to bed later, tried running them around all day to tire them out (that usually makes it worse!!!!!), we've tried treats and suprises, and nothing is working. DH and I talked about one of us sleeping downstairs, and the other upstairs taking care of the kids when they get up, then switching the next day. Thats all fine and good, but its not really getting to the root of the problem. Any suggestions???

oh gosh sweety no sleep just SUCKS!! My autistic son wouldnt sleep unless we rocked him. then if you put him down he woke right up Soo I got into the terrible habit of rocking him to sleep ( had to be standing up) and i would sleep standing up holding him.Nm the fact i woked till sometimes 1 am.. I was just beat down tired. the other sneaky thing we did is take him for a ride in the car your kids are young seems like they are playing off each other. one thing i see you may be doing backwards is putting them to bed later instead of earlier. also try no sugary things before bed. lavender baths help mike relax alot.. now he asks for them but he is 15. I wouldnt put them in my bed ( unless sick ) or let them cry it out ( seems cruel) seems like they are having issues adjusting or maybe having nightmares which wakes them? maybe get them a night light or a glow worm friend ?the hour before bed we try to quiet things.. take baths, look at books, do simple wood puzzles, brush your teeth , jammies on etc..
Have you talked to the Ped about maybe why there waking at night? Are they wet, cold, hungry etc ? maybe read some stories about sleeping in bed like a big boy/girl i am just tossing things at you that we have tried and mostly worked. mike was a tough cookie but finally we broke his sleep pattern and now 9 pm like clock work he will be in bed asleep..he is adhd/ autistic so VERY hyper 24/7 he actualy leaps into the air when excited like a gazel!! i love him though and he is the oldest of 5 kids.. best of luck to you !!

 

[nessz79]

I recommend the book Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child. Excellent. It explains how children who don't get enough sleep go into overdrive and it's that much harder for them to sleep. The book recommends making an earlier bedtime even when it seems that they are getting up too early in the morning. The whole book is "sleep begets sleep."

Lots of good charts in there about average amounts of sleep per age, also!

Another good book is the No-Cry Sleep Solution for Preschoolers (there's another one for babies that may work better for the 19 month old).

Each book comes from slightly different perspectives, but I think they are both very effective.

 

[mommyof2princesses]

Don't have much advice but wanted to give you some

When dd was little (she is ow 4 1/2), she woke up everyday at 4:30 for the day! I thought I would have to be up everyday for the rest of my life at 4:30. I wold nurse her, rock her, let her in my bed, but she was ready for the day. at about 2 she started sleeping longer druing Daylight savings. She went to 5, 5:30, 6 and now she gets up about 7. I hope you can get some sleep soon.

 

[RMulieri]

I wish I could give you advice, but I can't.My dd is 4y/o and still gets up between 430 and 500 EVERY morning.i can not imagine dealing with 2 crying children at the same time.

 

[brymolmom]

Do you have a good nighttime routine? Do they go down to bed at bedtime well? Is is JUST a problem with waking during the night or with sleep in general?

If you do have problems going to bed too - I would start with a good, set bedtime routine. Establish a bedtime - take a bath, read stories, etc. and then down to bed. It will likely take a couple weeks and I think you know what might be needed since you mentioned starting to let them cry.

With the 3 year old - try making her room darker. My 4 year old is a very early riser and sometimes wakes very early expecting to get up for the day. Keeping her room darker helps - put a blanket over the window. Also, at 3- she can understand consequences and rewards. Try a reward jar with jelly beans in it - one for each time she stays quiet overnight - then when it is full - she gets to go to Chuck E Cheese or the zoo. Talk to her and tell her that you will go in when she wakes and comfort her for 1 minute, but then she needs to rest quietly (not necessarily sleep). And, as far as the puking thing, put towels on teh floor - go in and take away the mess WITHOUT TALKING OR ACKNOWLEDGING HER, and walk out. You CAN still do Cry it Out, but it can be messier.

Oh - one other question - has she ever been 'allowed' to go downstairs when waking and screaming at 4? If so, definitely tell her it will not happen again. Tell her that she cannot go downstairs until whatever time is good for you - then show her a digital clock and tell her 'when the first number is 6' is when she can go downstairs. Do NOT let her go downstairs again or she'll just keep screaming until she gets to.

What is the 19 mon old waking up for? Just to be comforted? Bad dreams? Might be a good time to do some cry it out with the little one, or she'll be 3 and demanding to go downstairs.

I know it's more difficult when you have two - my two have shared a room since birth and when the baby was born - older one was 17 months - so the newborn crying thing was tough. But, both will go back to sleep even if waking due to the other - it will be LONG nights of 'training' them, but it is possible.

GOOD LUCK!

 

[PollyannaMom]

DS was a very early riser at that age as well, but DH had a matching early work schedule at the time (and there wasn't another baby being woken up) so we just all did the "early-to-bed, early-to-rise.." thing and plowed through it. Like a PP said, it gradually moved.

But since waiting it out doesn't sound best for you, try to guess the most likely cause:

Is she scared waking up in her room alone? I've heard to set up a sleeping bag on the floor of your room (or in one of those toy tents if you have a big room) and she can come in there if she needs to be closer to you.

Is she bored and just wants the day to start? Try setting a small light on a timer. - If she wakes up and the light is on, she can look at books in her room. (If her bookshelf is elsewhere, just make a special basket.) When the light goes off, it is OK to wake Mom to go downstairs.

Is she waking up because she's hungry for breakfast? If dinnertime is kind of early in your house, try a healthy bedtime snack.


And definitely catch a break for yourself! (I know when I don't get enough sleep, I'm that grumpy mom I don't want to be!) If temporarily taking turns downstairs works for you, I would do it. Or at least have Grandma/Auntie/someone come over and play with them a bit during the day so you can do something that rejuvinates you.

Good luck!!

 

[robin09]

Not much help here.. but great big ones. I know about lack of sleep and how hard it is. When my older kids, now 23 , were first born (twins) the first year was horrid... My son woke at 1,3, 5 and my dd woke at 2,4 ,6. This went for the first year or so of their lives. There really wasn't much to do for them except feed them.. they were premies and had a few problems.

Then along 13 years later came my DD who is now 9. You want to talk no sleep? They called her a high maintenance baby, and didn't believe me that she wouldn't nap. She still doesn't sleep in the car. The only way I was able to get any sleep was to have her in bed with us.. yes at 5 & 6 years old. She needed the weight and closeness from me.

We tried lavendar and melatonin, it works to an extent, but then her body needed more and more. OUr problem was and still is keeping her asleep for more than 2 hours. The doctors give mer medication now and it helps. She is adhd, ocd and has aspergers. Perfect solution? no, not at all... I don't like medicating my DD but have learned sometimes a perfect life with what we expect can not happen.

SO to you Iknow you must be by now. This too shall pass!

 

[SharpMomOfTwo]

Do you have a good nighttime routine? Do they go down to bed at bedtime well? Is is JUST a problem with waking during the night or with sleep in general?

If you do have problems going to bed too - I would start with a good, set bedtime routine. Establish a bedtime - take a bath, read stories, etc. and then down to bed. It will likely take a couple weeks and I think you know what might be needed since you mentioned starting to let them cry.

With the 3 year old - try making her room darker. My 4 year old is a very early riser and sometimes wakes very early expecting to get up for the day. Keeping her room darker helps - put a blanket over the window. Also, at 3- she can understand consequences and rewards. Try a reward jar with jelly beans in it - one for each time she stays quiet overnight - then when it is full - she gets to go to Chuck E Cheese or the zoo. Talk to her and tell her that you will go in when she wakes and comfort her for 1 minute, but then she needs to rest quietly (not necessarily sleep). And, as far as the puking thing, put towels on teh floor - go in and take away the mess WITHOUT TALKING OR ACKNOWLEDGING HER, and walk out. You CAN still do Cry it Out, but it can be messier.

Oh - one other question - has she ever been 'allowed' to go downstairs when waking and screaming at 4? If so, definitely tell her it will not happen again. Tell her that she cannot go downstairs until whatever time is good for you - then show her a digital clock and tell her 'when the first number is 6' is when she can go downstairs. Do NOT let her go downstairs again or she'll just keep screaming until she gets to.

What is the 19 mon old waking up for? Just to be comforted? Bad dreams? Might be a good time to do some cry it out with the little one, or she'll be 3 and demanding to go downstairs.

I know it's more difficult when you have two - my two have shared a room since birth and when the baby was born - older one was 17 months - so the newborn crying thing was tough. But, both will go back to sleep even if waking due to the other - it will be LONG nights of 'training' them, but it is possible.

GOOD LUCK!

They go to bed just fine every night. We have down time before bed usually watching baseball (thanks to DH) and then up to the bathroom, and right to bed - never a problem with that. DD19m usually wakes up because she has lost her binkie. If I go in and find it for her and then just leave its TOTAL FREEK OUT!!! A few times we have just hlet her cry, and she does get over it (sometimes not), but for the most part we bring her into bed with the tv on for about 5 minutes and then take ehr back. As far as DD3s room, it is pitch black. And yes, I brought her downstairs this morning at 4am (along with DD19m) and DH brought them down yesterday morning at the same time as well. She knows that she has lost drawing and and treats for the next 2 days, and DH took her HUGE play kitchen out of the house. Its not fair for DD19m to lose her kitchen and toys and such, but this is all we can do at this point. Tonight, no matter what happens, NO ONE IS COMING OUT OF THEIR ROOM. I'm tired of my house being run, and myself being run-down by a 3 year old. She has to learn that she can't do this, and I think this is the only way. I hope one day to get a full nights sleep - if it was just getting up at 4am, that would be one thing, but I'm up half the night with the other one too!! I need a vacation! Thank goodness DH and I are going away in 29 days ALONE!!!

 

[Disneychix]

I can't help with the 3yr old, but for the younger DD when you go in the room if she's lost her binkie just give it to her and lay her down and walk out. You will have to do this maybe 10 times in a row. Don't look her in the eye or talk to soothe her. This will be very hard to do! But she'll get it!
DS took a couple days with this method but he's good now.
Hope you get some sleep soon!

 

[zoemurr]

is to put a CD player by her bed. When my kids wake up they are allowed to put on music, but have to stay in bed. I have often heard the Wiggles at 4am, but it keeps them happy enough to not come wake me up. The other thing that has worked for us is a sleeping bag by the side of our bed. If they "need" to be with us you can come get in the sleeping bag, but leave us alone. We found my son on the floor in the morning for months, but he never bothered us.

As for your baby waking up to find the paci.. we used to put about 12 in there. Good luck...

 

[SharpMomOfTwo]

is to put a CD player by her bed. When my kids wake up they are allowed to put on music, but have to stay in bed. I have often heard the Wiggles at 4am, but it keeps them happy enough to not come wake me up. The other thing that has worked for us is a sleeping bag by the side of our bed. If they "need" to be with us you can come get in the sleeping bag, but leave us alone. We found my son on the floor in the morning for months, but he never bothered us.

As for your baby waking up to find the paci.. we used to put about 12 in there. Good luck...

Thats a great idea about the binkie, and I know a lot of people who do that, but, DD19m has only ONE BINKIE!!! Its pink and all rubber, and I've looked all over New Jersey in search for another (BabiesRUs where I got it to begin with, Walmart, Target) and none can be found!! She will only use this one binkie, and if we ever lose that thing.... I don't even want to think about what will happen!!!

As far as the CD - we have thought about putting the spair tv and dvd in her room with Hannah or something, but I don't know if a 3 year old should have a tv/dvd in her room! Though if it will save me from strangling someone due to lack is sleep, maybe we should give it a thought!

 

[Mom2JPL]

My only advice is to not start something that you don't want to have to continue...someone gave me this advice when I had my kids and it's the best rule I live by.

If you don't want to take the kids downstairs at 4 in the morning, don't start it. If you don't want your kids watching tv in their rooms, don't start it just to help her sleep now. Studies show that watching tv in bed leads to horrible sleep patterns. Kids need to learn to fall asleep on their own, and to be able to soothe themselves back to sleep when they wake up. (Hope I'm not sounding harsh, hard to inflect concern when writing!)

I know it'll be hard, but letting your oldest cry it out might work...you say she's a puker, but that might only be because she knows it'll get you to rescue her. I think that bringing the baby into your room when the older one starts crying might work, because your 3 year old won't get any reward for waking everyone up.

Are both kids still napping during the day? My 3 yo stopped napping about 5 months ago (it's been horrible!), but when I can get him to lie down and rest during the day, he seems to sleep so much better at night. He was up at 5am this past Tuesday morning; he came into my room and laid down with me (my dh was away on business) but wouldn't fall back asleep. In the afternoon he was a bear! After lunch I took him upstairs when I put the baby down for a nap (she's 19 months too!) and made his lay on my bed with me. He cried for about 2 minutes that he didn't want a nap, and feel asleep and slept for 2 hours. I put him to bed normal time on Tuesday night (between 7 and 8, depending on how wiped I am after being home with them all day!) and he slept until his normal time (6:30am). Sometimes when they're overtired, they just don't sleep well at night.

Hope you get a good night sleep soon.

 

[thegrimdwarf]

Wow, that's rough!!! I have to agree with the prior poster, though - do NOT start something that you aren't comfortable continuing, just to get some sleep. That just takes you out of the pan and into the flames.

We were very hard-core and rigid with sleep "rules" when my boys were young, and they are now great sleepers - both in bed by 8 PM, and we don't hear from them until 6:45 the next morning unless they're sick. And the friends I have that used to tell me I was mean wish they'd been so mean, because their kids are still up at midnight. I loosely followed the guidelines in The No Cry Sleep Solution and Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child.

I understand they share a room, which certainly makes things difficult for you and gives your 3 year old a HUGE advantage over you - she certainly understands that you don't want her to wake the younger one. Can you split them up somehow, from the beginning of the night? If you can, my recommendation would be to just let them both have a couple good nights of crying and wailing (and let her puke if that's what she does). It will be really, really hard, but in the long run you will all be happier for it. And if you start letting them cry, do NOT back down - if you do, you've let them cry for however long for absolutely no reason. You need to have total resolve before you start.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

 

[Momvic5]

SharpMomOfTwo~

I am sending your way too. Not sleeping is so incredibly hard. I will be honest. You are a stronger person than I am. I have three children(all older now), and they all slept with my DH and me for that very reason. I know alot of people do not like children in their beds, but for my DH and I, we were like "who cares what the books say" if we are all sleeping through the night. We did this for years until they each were able to get into the habit of sleeping through the night. My youngest was the hardest to get out of our bed because he was a frequent potty user and that would intefere with his sleep. They are now all in their own beds and it is heaven, but each one was 3 to 4 1/2yrs old before they were moved to their own room. In the time that they were sleeping with us, everything was kept dark and quiet, and we never got up unless someone had to go to the bathroom or was sick. Now on occassion any one of them (12, 8, and 6yrs) will come into our room in the night with a bad dream or something, and my Dh and I will just make room for them and go right back to sleep. It worked and still works for us.

I share my story not because I think that you should let your girls sleep with you and your DH, but because I think you should follow what your heart says. You love your girls and want what is best for them and your family as a whole, but something has to change. It may not be what everyone else does, did, or is going to agree with, but if it works for your family and everyone is getting sleep and learning to sleep, go with it. This time is hard, but it will pass. Hopefully sooner than later!

 

[Momvic5]

My only advice is to not start something that you don't want to have to continue...someone gave me this advice when I had my kids and it's the best rule I live by.

If you don't want to take the kids downstairs at 4 in the morning, don't start it. If you don't want your kids watching tv in their rooms, don't start it just to help her sleep now. Studies show that watching tv in bed leads to horrible sleep patterns. Kids need to learn to fall asleep on their own, and to be able to soothe themselves back to sleep when they wake up. (Hope I'm not sounding harsh, hard to inflect concern when writing!)

.

I so agree with this too. It is easier to prevent a habit, than it is to break a habit.

 

[rt2dz]

I have not read the replies, so excuse me if I'm repeating or missing some great information. How does your DD3 sleep at naptime?

We had something similar happen with DS#1. He was ready to give up naps at this time. It took a little adjustment with shortening his naps over the course of a week or two, making sure the nap ended no later than 4 hours before bedtime. We actually found out 5 hours was more ideal.

Anyhow, when we cut the naps down and then out--instead of going to bed at 8 PM, he went to bed at 7 PM (over a year or two it moved to 8:00 PM - 8:30 PM, where it still is at 7yo). He then also quit the early morning wake-ups and started waking at 8 AM; prior to the early morning waking he woke at 7 AM. On school days he gets up at 6:30 AM, but on weekends he still wakes at 8 AM.

OK, off to read the other replies now!

 

[rt2dz]

Oops. I read it wrong. For some reason I thought DD3 was waking 19 mo, not 19 mo waking DD3. Although, they could be having separate issues at the same time.

Is DD19m teething? DS#3 would only wake up for a few weeks at a time in the middle of the night constantly when he was getting in teeth. My kids don't even get their first tooth until after their first birthday. Anyhow, when he got in his 2 year molars at around 20 months he was up for about a month several times in the middle of the night. It was horrible, but it passed.

Before you can solve the issue with the 19 mo, I think you might need to find out why. Sometimes kids just make a sudden change and then you have to nip it in the bud, but with my kids, there was always a reason for a sudden change. You might just want to let the 19 mo suffer it out alone--make sure the room is really, really childproofed and put a gate at the door. Or just establish a quick middle of the night routine--go to her, do something quick, and leave and eventually shorten it and then just ignore 19 mo altogether. I don't know, like I said, my kids always had a reason when they would suddenly do stuff like that. I do agree; don't start anything you don't want to continue. There might be a reason, but you could inadvertently develop a habit in the middle of it.

 

[SharpMomOfTwo]

Well thanks for all the thoughts and posts. Just to clear a few things up, DD3 and DD19m do not share a room, DD3 just has a wonderful pair of lungs and can wake up the whole neighborhood! As of right now, it is DD3 waking up DD19m, though it has been the reverse from time to time. And lastly, my memory isn't the best right now since I've HAD NO SLEEP but as far as I can recall, I think DD3 sleeps best when shes had a nap for the day. The only problem with that, is she will only nap when being driven in the car!! I don't have a huge problem with driving around for 2 hours.... the only issues are: I get on the treadmill 2x a day (I'm really trying to lose this weight!) and taking 2-3 hours out of the day is really hard between the treadmill and getting them lunch, etc., and #2, DD19m takes her nap before DD3 would, so by the time we get into the car for DD3 to nap, D19m has already taken hers, and will not take another... did ya get that???
I don't know... I'm a bit calmer now... I thought earlier I was going to just walk out the door and never come back As I said before, we are 100% not getting DD3 out of her room tonight, no matter what. Maybe we could bring the protable DVD players in for her.... I don't know. I have a feeling that if she knows they are available to her, she will either wake herself up, or just not go to sleep. Plus, they are kind of a reward, and I'm not the kind of mom to reward bad behavior! I guess I'll just never sleep again................

 

[mom2prettyprincess]

I have a 3 1/2 yr old and up unitl recently she took naps everyday sometimes up to 4 hours. She then would be back asleep that night by 10pm and would not get up until 7-8:30 am the next morning. And all of a sudden one day a nap meant not going to sleep at night until 2am! I was like Oh No, this is not happening! So we started to cut out naps on occasion she might get in a hour nap, if she is really cranky. But she now goes down anywhere between 8-9 pm..we like to be ready for bed @ 8pm but sometimes it takes until 9pm for her to wind down and fall asleep. At first I thought, no naps that is not good, but have noticed it isn't until right around 7 pm is when we start to notice the "Crank" in her. Maybe you should try different nap patterns even with your 19 month old. It is surely worth a try. One thing I noticed when my daughter was younger a snack right before bed, of applesauce, pudding or something really helped her. And taking away her bottle also helped...It took us a week or so to really break her of the bottle at night. But she was okay with it, it was like the mental I am hungry was gone. And the snack really helped.

Good luck to you!