Off shoot of the Diddy thread-justice or conviction?

dez1978

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Rather than derail the Diddy thread I thought I’d start a new one. There I mentioned my thoughts about the justice system and how it’s stacked against defendants. I get that those who’ve worked for prosecutors aren’t going to agree with me, and that’s cool. But when prosecutors decide years later they screwed up and got the wrong guy, and the state decides to execute anyway, tell me how that is justice? No forensic evidence, no physical evidence, just a jailhouse snitch, and a former girlfriend to testify against him, and he’s going to be executed in less than 24 hours. But this doesn’t happen right? We don’t convict the wrong people with no evidence, that’s the vibe I got over there.

https://www.msnbc.com/opinion/msnbc...uri-execution-prosecutors-innocent-rcna172234
 
I'll bite.
I did reply on the other thread but I'll share more info here.
Every night I pray through the news that I read online.
All of it is from various sources - liberal, conservative, and I follow
rabbit trails to many local news outlets.
It's so interesting to read what's going on elsewhere, not just here in my state
or in the USA.

One thing I always do is pray for the people (almost always men and almost always Black),
that I see in the news as their execution is coming up.
My prayer has always been, and will always be,
"Dear Jesus please protect this man if his innocent - please halt his death.
If he is guilty I pray that he publicly confesses, repents & apologizes to the victim's family."

I don't know what else I could do as I'm never nearby to protest or anything,
if I even knew the evidence, so I pray, because prayer is action.

The case you mention bothers me greatly - only God & the prisoner know of his guilt/innocence.
I've already been praying for him, and I sincerely hope the governor does the right thing either way.

"One can only hope that Gov. Parson makes the right decision and spares Marcellus Williams’ life."

And so I ask the Lord to speak to the Governor's heart, to allow Marcellus the right to live out his
life in prison as he agreed to do just a month ago.
 
I'm not really sure what to think of our justice system these days. As far as Diddy goes I think there's a lot more to unpack and I personally think we haven't scratched the service.
 
I'll bite.
I did reply on the other thread but I'll share more info here.
Every night I pray through the news that I read online.
All of it is from various sources - liberal, conservative, and I follow
rabbit trails to many local news outlets.
It's so interesting to read what's going on elsewhere, not just here in my state
or in the USA.

One thing I always do is pray for the people (almost always men and almost always Black),
that I see in the news as their execution is coming up.
My prayer has always been, and will always be,
"Dear Jesus please protect this man if his innocent - please halt his death.
If he is guilty I pray that he publicly confesses, repents & apologizes to the victim's family."

I don't know what else I could do as I'm never nearby to protest or anything,
if I even knew the evidence, so I pray, because prayer is action.

The case you mention bothers me greatly - only God & the prisoner know of his guilt/innocence.
I've already been praying for him, and I sincerely hope the governor does the right thing either way.

"One can only hope that Gov. Parson makes the right decision and spares Marcellus Williams’ life."

And so I ask the Lord to speak to the Governor's heart, to allow Marcellus the right to live out his
life in prison as he agreed to do just a month ago.
The gov denied clemency as well
 

I don't work for prosecutors and I don't believe the justice system is stacked against defendants. More often than not I'd say that victims have the system stacked against them, particularly those of sexual assaults and children -- with the commonality being much of the evidence is frequently the word of the victim. Tremendous priority given to protect defendants from reputation/character/criminal history/prior allegation history. Victims are lucky if they get so much as a postage stamp of privacy regarding even the most mundane details of their past. There's a reason predators hone in on certain victims -- because they know nobody's going to believe a "bad kid". Kids who lie about having finished all their homework or "the dog ate my homework" is actually used against them to create doubt of their credibility when they've accused a step parent or mom or dad's significant other of abusing them. Happens all the time. Stop and think if you yourself or your children ever lied about a homework assignment. Does that mean you or your child is a habitual liar of epic proportions?

The goal of a good justice system should be discipline and punishment of those who commit crimes and deterring others from committing similar crimes. Incarcerating people who did not commit the crimes alleged is definitely not just. That explains why the scales are more heavily balanced to the protection of the accused. Taking away someone's liberty is extreme and should only happen when the elements of an alleged crime are proven beyond reasonable doubt in a court of law.

Do mistakes happen, yep. Have there been those pushed through the system and convicted wrongfully because of bad actors in the process, yep. Is that the norm? I absolutely don't believe so, and certainly not anywhere near a great proportion of prosecutions.

I've also learned how wildly different what happened in X trial is compared to a news article or news story I've seen. Many times I understand how and why that happens is because the reporters don't have the ability to sit through much more than an hour at most of even some of the "biggest" cases. So much of what happens in these cases has actually happened many months, even a year before the trial in countless pretrial evidentiary and motion hearings that the judge has issued rulings on. Reporters aren't given the luxury of time to devote to following cases for anything but "important" or "newsworthy" dates. The tedium of arguments about arcane details of case law, etc. don't get covered. If reporters are able to take the time to sit through an entire morning or afternoon of a trial it's likely opening arguments, but most likely closing arguments and sentencing. Opening arguments and closing arguments are not evidence, they're attorneys explaining how they see the case. Much of what happens at sentencing isn't evidence either.

I've walked into courtrooms many, many times during a trial that I actually know many of the details involved and found myself completely lost as to what I am seeing and hearing in front of me at the moment. It's not that it's dramatic and exciting with twists and turns like TV or the movies. Most trials are about as exciting as watching grass grow at least 80-percent of the time or more. If a reporter comes in to observe for the slot of time they have to gather details for their story and all they have to work with is the bulletpoints of the charges and possibly some statements of dispute a defense attorney has made to the press earlier in the case and the slot of time the reporter has available to come in and observe the trial live involves a very narrow viewpoint of complex testimony or evidence that short amount of observation can skew their perspective and opinions greatly. When that viewpoint gets broadcast out to the public in their reporting it can immediately shape how those who see or read their report now view everything about the case going forward. Virtually every single case reported on in the press needs far more nuance and far more detailed understanding in order to give something more like what the public expects is an honest, detailed and factual accounting. That's not malicious or deliberate on the part of the press the majority of the time either, it's simply an economic reality of the news business and how they need to utilize limited resources to report the news and keep audiences tuned in.

Miscarriages of justice are awful on so many levels. I cannot fathom the horror and tragedy of being wrongfully incarcerated. Their family and loved ones' suffering is traumatic, too. The victim(s) are also victimized once again when this happens because they're not getting legal redress for their loss or suffering. Communities can be at risk with the real perpetrator still free to victimize others. In my experience most people working in the justice system are working towards justice, even if they're not perfect, make mistakes and don't get everything right all the time.
 
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I don't work for prosecutors and I don't believe the justice system is stacked against defendants. More often than not I'd say that victims have the system stacked against them, particularly those of sexual assaults and children -- with the commonality being much of the evidence is frequently the word of the victim. Tremendous priority given to protect defendants from reputation/character/criminal history/prior allegation history. Victims are lucky if they get so much as a postage stamp of privacy regarding even the most mundane details of their past. There's a reason predators hone in on certain victims -- because they know nobody's going to believe a "bad kid". Kids who lie about having finished all their homework or "the dog ate my homework" is actually used against them to create doubt of their credibility when they've accused a step parent or mom or dad's significant other of abusing them. Happens all the time. Stop and think if you yourself or your children ever lied about a homework assignment. Does that mean you or your child is a habitual liar of epic proportions?

The goal of a good justice system should be discipline and punishment of those who commit crimes and deterring others from committing similar crimes. Incarcerating people who did not commit the crimes alleged is definitely not just. That explains why the scales are more heavily balanced to the protection of the accused. Taking away someone's liberty is extreme and should only happen when the elements of an alleged crime are proven beyond reasonable doubt in a court of law.

Do mistakes happen, yep. Have there been those pushed through the system and convicted wrongfully because of bad actors in the process, yep. Is that the norm? I absolutely don't believe so, and certainly not anywhere near a great proportion of prosecutions.

I've also learned how wildly different what happened in X trial is compared to a news article or news story I've seen. Many times I understand how and why that happens is because the reporters don't have the ability to sit through much more than an hour at most of even some of the "biggest" cases. So much of what happens in these cases has actually happened many months, even a year before the trial in countless pretrial evidentiary and motion hearings that the judge has issued rulings on. Reporters aren't given the luxury of time to devote to following cases for anything but "important" or "newsworthy" dates. The tedium of arguments about arcane details of case law, etc. don't get covered. If reporters are able to take the time to sit through an entire morning or afternoon of a trial it's likely opening arguments, but most likely closing arguments and sentencing. Opening arguments and closing arguments are not evidence, they're attorneys explaining how they see the case. Much of what happens at sentencing isn't evidence either.

I've walked into courtrooms many, many times during a trial that I actually know many of the details involved and found myself completely lost as to what I am seeing and hearing in front of me at the moment. It's not that it's dramatic and exciting with twists and turns like TV or the movies. Most trials are about as exciting as watching grass grow at least 80-percent of the time or more. If a reporter comes in to observe for the slot of time they have to gather details for their story and all they have to work with is the bulletpoints of the charges and possibly some statements of dispute a defense attorney has made to the press earlier in the case and the slot of time the reporter has available to come in and observe the trial live involves a very narrow viewpoint of complex testimony or evidence that short amount of observation can skew their perspective and opinions greatly. When that viewpoint gets broadcast out to the public in their reporting it can immediately shape how those who see or read their report now view everything about the case going forward. Virtually every single case reported on in the press needs far more nuance and far more detailed understanding in order to give something more like what the public expects is an honest, detailed and factual accounting. That's not malicious or deliberate on the part of the press the majority of the time either, it's simply an economic reality of the news business and how they need to utilize limited resources to report the news and keep audiences tuned in.

Miscarriages of justice are awful on so many levels. I cannot fathom the horror and tragedy of being wrongfully incarcerated. Their family and loved ones' suffering is traumatic, too. The victim(s) are also victimized once again when this happens because they're not getting legal redress for their loss or suffering. Communities can be at risk with the real perpetrator still free to victimize others. In my experience most people working in the justice system are working towards justice, even if they're not perfect, make mistakes and don't get everything right all the time.
Today a man is going to be executed on nothing more than a jailhouse snitch and an ex girlfriends testimony. Zero physical or forensic evidence. The prosecution, and the victims family are both saying he's not the guy now. But they are still going to kill him tonight.
 
Today a man is going to be executed on nothing more than a jailhouse snitch and an ex girlfriends testimony. Zero physical or forensic evidence. The prosecution, and the victims family are both saying he's not the guy now. But they are still going to kill him tonight.
The situation as you've outlined it is horrible. If that is accurate I would certainly hope that justice prevails.

That being said, it's not correct to extrapolate a single case to suggest that the justice system as a whole is broken or corrupt. There's simply no way the system can be perfect, it's a human endeavor. If society is to function a system is necessary. I don't find another one in the world I feel is more just or reliable. It doesn't mean accepting complacency and allowing it to run amuck. There are avenues available to improve the system and correct weaknesses and/or corruption. American citizens are not voiceless.
 
I don't work for prosecutors and I don't believe the justice system is stacked against defendants. More often than not I'd say that victims have the system stacked against them, particularly those of sexual assaults and children -- with the commonality being much of the evidence is frequently the word of the victim. Tremendous priority given to protect defendants from reputation/character/criminal history/prior allegation history. Victims are lucky if they get so much as a postage stamp of privacy regarding even the most mundane details of their past. There's a reason predators hone in on certain victims -- because they know nobody's going to believe a "bad kid". Kids who lie about having finished all their homework or "the dog ate my homework" is actually used against them to create doubt of their credibility when they've accused a step parent or mom or dad's significant other of abusing them. Happens all the time. Stop and think if you yourself or your children ever lied about a homework assignment. Does that mean you or your child is a habitual liar of epic proportions?

The goal of a good justice system should be discipline and punishment of those who commit crimes and deterring others from committing similar crimes. Incarcerating people who did not commit the crimes alleged is definitely not just. That explains why the scales are more heavily balanced to the protection of the accused. Taking away someone's liberty is extreme and should only happen when the elements of an alleged crime are proven beyond reasonable doubt in a court of law.

Do mistakes happen, yep. Have there been those pushed through the system and convicted wrongfully because of bad actors in the process, yep. Is that the norm? I absolutely don't believe so, and certainly not anywhere near a great proportion of prosecutions.

I've also learned how wildly different what happened in X trial is compared to a news article or news story I've seen. Many times I understand how and why that happens is because the reporters don't have the ability to sit through much more than an hour at most of even some of the "biggest" cases. So much of what happens in these cases has actually happened many months, even a year before the trial in countless pretrial evidentiary and motion hearings that the judge has issued rulings on. Reporters aren't given the luxury of time to devote to following cases for anything but "important" or "newsworthy" dates. The tedium of arguments about arcane details of case law, etc. don't get covered. If reporters are able to take the time to sit through an entire morning or afternoon of a trial it's likely opening arguments, but most likely closing arguments and sentencing. Opening arguments and closing arguments are not evidence, they're attorneys explaining how they see the case. Much of what happens at sentencing isn't evidence either.

I've walked into courtrooms many, many times during a trial that I actually know many of the details involved and found myself completely lost as to what I am seeing and hearing in front of me at the moment. It's not that it's dramatic and exciting with twists and turns like TV or the movies. Most trials are about as exciting as watching grass grow at least 80-percent of the time or more. If a reporter comes in to observe for the slot of time they have to gather details for their story and all they have to work with is the bulletpoints of the charges and possibly some statements of dispute a defense attorney has made to the press earlier in the case and the slot of time the reporter has available to come in and observe the trial live involves a very narrow viewpoint of complex testimony or evidence that short amount of observation can skew their perspective and opinions greatly. When that viewpoint gets broadcast out to the public in their reporting it can immediately shape how those who see or read their report now view everything about the case going forward. Virtually every single case reported on in the press needs far more nuance and far more detailed understanding in order to give something more like what the public expects is an honest, detailed and factual accounting. That's not malicious or deliberate on the part of the press the majority of the time either, it's simply an economic reality of the news business and how they need to utilize limited resources to report the news and keep audiences tuned in.

Miscarriages of justice are awful on so many levels. I cannot fathom the horror and tragedy of being wrongfully incarcerated. Their family and loved ones' suffering is traumatic, too. The victim(s) are also victimized once again when this happens because they're not getting legal redress for their loss or suffering. Communities can be at risk with the real perpetrator still free to victimize others. In my experience most people working in the justice system are working towards justice, even if they're not perfect, make mistakes and don't get everything right all the time.
I will agree with you on many of your statements. I feel like in SA cases, victims are not afforded the protections they deserve. And TV does not accurately portray what actually happens in court.

The case I referred to isn't a single case tho. It isn't just this one time. It happens frequently. More than 3100 wrongful convictions have been overturned since 1989. And while I recognize that is a small percentage of the convictions overall, that is also just the number that actually won in court. It doesn't take into account all of them who were denied like the case I referred to earlier. It is estimated that 4-6% of people incarcerated in the US are actually innocent. That is 1 in 20 criminal cases that result in a wrongful conviction. 1 in 20!
 
I will agree with you on many of your statements. I feel like in SA cases, victims are not afforded the protections they deserve. And TV does not accurately portray what actually happens in court.

The case I referred to isn't a single case tho. It isn't just this one time. It happens frequently. More than 3100 wrongful convictions have been overturned since 1989. And while I recognize that is a small percentage of the convictions overall, that is also just the number that actually won in court. It doesn't take into account all of them who were denied like the case I referred to earlier. It is estimated that 4-6% of people incarcerated in the US are actually innocent. That is 1 in 20 criminal cases that result in a wrongful conviction. 1 in 20!
Note the bolded. IMO it's best to be very, very concerned with how and why an estimate is arrived at -- particularly if it's being used as the basis for formulating an upending of something as vital to how society functions as its justice system. An exclamation point at the end of a statement of nebulous "statistics" of unknown origin is convincing of an author's determination a reader accept a statement at face value, sans any actual evidence demonstrating accuracy or truthfulness.

My first grade report card has a note from my teacher commenting that I demonstrated capability and proficiency in mathematics, however I required demonstration as new concepts were introduced before I would accept them as truth. As the years rolled on and the concepts became more complex I was probably one of the rare students who embraced the notion of "show your work". I guess I never truly progressed all that much beyond the student I was in first grade math. I absolutely expect that level of detail when it involves the rights and protections inherent in our justice system and the freedoms it safeguards.
 
Note the bolded. IMO it's best to be very, very concerned with how and why an estimate is arrived at -- particularly if it's being used as the basis for formulating an upending of something as vital to how society functions as its justice system. An exclamation point at the end of a statement of nebulous "statistics" of unknown origin is convincing of an author's determination a reader accept a statement at face value, sans any actual evidence demonstrating accuracy or truthfulness.

My first grade report card has a note from my teacher commenting that I demonstrated capability and proficiency in mathematics, however I required demonstration as new concepts were introduced before I would accept them as truth. As the years rolled on and the concepts became more complex I was probably one of the rare students who embraced the notion of "show your work". I guess I never truly progressed all that much beyond the student I was in first grade math. I absolutely expect that level of detail when it involves the rights and protections inherent in our justice system and the freedoms it safeguards.
I get your point. But are you really ok with people being convicted and sentenced to death for things they are innocent of? It doesn't matter if it's 2% or 10%. It's still too many. Those estimates are based of actual numbers of overturned convictions. Because of the extreme difficulty of getting a conviction overturned due to the way the system is set up, we will never actually know the real number. A likely innocent man was executed last night because of how the system is designed and the fact that the AG cared more about upholding the conviction than actual justice for the crime. Zero physical evidence, zero forensic evidence, just a jailhouse snitch and an ex girlfriends testimony. As of Feb 2024, there have been 3478 exonerations since 1989, and those people spent a combined 31,678 years in prison fighting.
As to the bolded part: The problem is the disparity between the prosecution and the defense. The prosecution and the police are allowed to lie to the defendant. Whether it's saying "Your buddy already told us you did it" or "we have evidence that puts you at the scene" in order to try to get you to confess or to coerce a confession. By the way, 18% of exonerees plead guilty to a crime they didn't commit. and 25% were due to coerced confessions. Prosecutors can't be held liable for falsifying evidence, coercing witnesses, presenting false testimony, or introducing illegally seized evidence. The Supreme Court ruled they cannot be held civilly liable for their actions, so the worst that happens is a conviction gets overturned. I don't think that's much accountability there. Defendants don't have a right to exculpatory evidence during plea negotiations. Nationally, the budget for prosecutorial services is around 6 Billion, vs 2.3 billion for Public Defenders. Meaning the prosecution has much greater resources to prosecute, than the defense does to defend you. The work load is unequal between prosecutors and public defenders. If you cannot afford a private attorney, you are already at a disadvantage from the start. Attorneys are bound by ethics to do the right thing, but when there are no actual repercussions for not doing the right thing, and public pressure to get a conviction, ethic often times go by the wayside. The Ryan Ferguson case was in the media for a few years. He spent almost 10 years in prison for a murder he didn't commit, with zero evidence to point to him, other than his friend who 2 years later told the police he didn't remember that they committed the murder, but he dreamed they did. His friend was offered a plea deal to testify against Ferguson, and a supposed eye witness, while in jail for unrelated crimes claimed to have seen the 2 at the scene. The witness later recanted, saying the prosecutor pressured him into testifying. Another witness to the murder told the prosecutor repeatedly that the man she saw the night of the murder was NOT Ferguson and the prosecutor became threatening towards her. The prosecutor did not disclose this evidence to the defense, along with other exculpatory evidence. 10 years after his conviction, it was overturned because the prosecutor withheld Brady evidence, so much so that the AG didn't even fight the issue (which they almost always do). That prosecutor, who cost this man 10 years of his life, knowingly withholding evidence, is now a judge in the same county this happened in. It cost the county 11 million in compensatory damages, and the prosecutor got elected as a judge. How does that happen? Where is the punishment for the prosecutor in this case? There is none. Ever.
 
My biggest problem is this. If we know prosecutorial or police misconduct has been found and was the cause of 50% of exonerations, how many more out there are there we will never know about? It stands to reason that there are certainly more cases that haven't come to light. They are the ones in charge of the investigations, and disclosing evidence. So how do you prove they withheld something you never knew existed? How does the defense know that DNA pointing towards someone else exists or have their own experts test it, if it's never been disclosed? And since 97% of convictions occur by pleas, they aren't obligated to disclose any thing. But they will tell you everything they can to make you think they have enough against you. Even though the system is supposed to be "Innocent until proven guilty" and the prosecution is supposed to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant is guilty, in reality, it's that the defendant now has to prove that they are innocent. I won't say that all prosecutors are bad, I certainly don't think they are. But I think it's prevalent enough that the system needs to be changed to allow cases to be brought back to court and State AG's need to quit fighting to uphold convictions alone, and start fighting to uphold justice. Because while all of these people were convicted and spent time in prison for things they were innocent of, the actual perpetrator was still out there. And that isn't justice at all.
 












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