Not educating child

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Agian, how does anyone else know this without some kind of proof??

Who is "anyone else"?

If it is you, then you are owed absolutely nothing and have no right to have my children's education "proved" to you.

 

[Wadekind]

Nobody else needs to know. In America I have the right and freedom to educate my child as I see fit and as long as I'm in compliance with the laws in my state, nobody needs to concern themselves with my children. I pay my taxes that support the schools that my children don't attend and I comply with the TX homeschool laws - that's all the state and the general public has a right to know about.

The "state" represents the concerns of the general public. You and I are both part of the state no matter how you choose to educate your children. Just because you have opted out of public education does not mean you opt out of oversight. The state does have the right to check that you are in compliance with the law and since there is no independent proof that you are doing the job correctly, the general public has an obligation to call protective services if they feel you are neglecting your children.
I don't buy any of the excuses on here for why home schooled children can not be tested. Seems more of an argument for an exception to the standards that public and private schools are held to.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

But how does society know you aren't giving them A's on things at home, and only enrolling them in courses you know they can do? Carrying on a conversation dosen't have much to do with being able to add and subtract for instance. Are we suppoed to just assume everyone is honest and take them at thier word that their kids are being educated? If not, how do we decide who may be lying and test just those children?

How are we to know that you are keeping your children safe at home?

Are we to just take your word for it?

Are we supposed to assume you are honest about how you rear your children at home.

Maybe we should test you and your kids so that we can figure out if you are lying or not in your parenting skills.


Let me guess...you would never subscribe to such intrusion by the government, would you?

 

[princessmom29]

How are we to know that you are keeping your children safe at home?

Are we to just take your word for it?

Are we supposed to assume you are honest about how you rear your children at home.

Maybe we should test you and your kids so that we can figure out if you are lying or not in your parenting skills.


Let me guess...you would never subscribe to such intrusion by the government, would you?

I have NOTHING to hide, so no, it wouldn't bother me a bit.

Bottom line: I am not willing to take someone's word for it when I will end up footing the bill for thier negligence down the road. If that means I need to prove I am doing the right thing, I don't have a problem with it. My kid is being tested every year, and you can bet if anyone suspected a problem at home it would be reported.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

The "state" represents the concerns of the general public. You and I are both part of the state no matter how you choose to educate your children. Just because you have opted out of public education does not mean you opt out of oversight. The state does have the right to check that you are in compliance with the law and since there is no independent proof that you are doing the job correctly, the general public has an obligation to call protective services if they feel you are neglecting your children.
I don't buy any of the excuses on here for why home schooled children can not be tested. Seems more of an argument for an exception to the standards that public and private schools are held to.

I can agree to an extent. If you are concerned about welfare, then yes--do what you feel you have to do. If you just don't "like" someone's choice. That is different and just makes you a tattle tail. (or is it "tale"?)

The beauty of constitutional protection is that you dont' have to "buy" anything.

Of course homeschooled parents are held to different standards that public/private schools. Could you please cite where in the constitution it indicates they have to be the same?

FTR: I have tested my children since the grades testing has been made available. My oldest has been tested since K and my youngest began in 2nd grade because the group we were in for K and 1st wasn't able to provide testing to K and 1st. No biggie. We do it for our own information. Sometimes I submit scores and sometimes I don't. When I don't, I have a certified teacher who reviews the information for me and then submit to the county that she has validated that my children are where they need to be. Or she reviews our portfolio and draws the same conclusion.

For my present state, I did submit test scores last year as I did not have access to a certified teacher to review them and their portfolio. I had a mild panic as one of my children had a dip in one section of scores as we did not cover whatever it was in our studies. I called the county to clarify what they were looking for and they don't pick apart the individual sections. They just look at the overall stanine and as long as it is above a certain number, then things are fine. My daughter was well above even though she had trouble on 1 of many sections.

There are other options, but I have not explored them, yet.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

I have NOTHING to hide, so no, it wouldn't bother me a bit.

Bottom line: I am not willing to take someone's word for it when I will end up footing the bill for thier negligence down the road. If that means I need to prove I am doing the right thing, I don't have a problem with it. My kid is being tested every year, and you can bet if anyone suspected a problem at home it would be reported.

I have nothing to hide. It doesn't mean that I am comfortable with providing more information than is necessary.



Why would you presume people have something to hide just because they value their right to privacy?

As far as your child--common sense would dictate that if they were going to do so poorly on their standardized tests, that bells would have gone off much earlier in the year when it became clear to you that your child was not performing commensurate to their ability in school.

Back in Florida, test scores weren't available until summer AFTER school let out. IF that was your first moment in realizing your child's education was lacking--you have more issues than worrying about whether a homeschooler has mandated testing.

Your logic doesn't make sense to me.

 

[princessmom29]

I have nothing to hide. It doesn't mean that I am comfortable with providing more information than is necessary.



Why would you presume people have something to hide just because they value their right to privacy?

As far as your child--common sense would dictate that if they were going to do so poorly on their standardized tests, that bells would have gone off much earlier in the year when it became clear to you that your child was not performing commensurate to their ability in school.

Back in Florida, test scores weren't available until summer AFTER school let out. IF that was your first moment in realizing your child's education was lacking--you have more issues than worrying about whether a homeschooler has mandated testing.

Your logic doesn't make sense to me.

Becuase generally, people who feel the need to hide ARE in fact hiding something. Right to privacy and unwillingness to be accountable are two very different things.

YOUR logic doesn't make sense to me. I have nothing to hide. I am perfectly willing to have my child tested if necessary to prove that. How does that mean I am not aware of her education outside of that test? One has nothing to do with the other.

 

[princessmom29]

I can agree to an extent. If you are concerned about welfare, then yes--do what you feel you have to do. If you just don't "like" someone's choice. That is different and just makes you a tattle tail. (or is it "tale"?)

The beauty of constitutional protection is that you dont' have to "buy" anything.

Of course homeschooled parents are held to different standards that public/private schools. Could you please cite where in the constitution it indicates they have to be the same?

FTR: I have tested my children since the grades testing has been made available. My oldest has been tested since K and my youngest began in 2nd grade because the group we were in for K and 1st wasn't able to provide testing to K and 1st. No biggie. We do it for our own information. Sometimes I submit scores and sometimes I don't. When I don't, I have a certified teacher who reviews the information for me and then submit to the county that she has validated that my children are where they need to be. Or she reviews our portfolio and draws the same conclusion.

For my present state, I did submit test scores last year as I did not have access to a certified teacher to review them and their portfolio. I had a mild panic as one of my children had a dip in one section of scores as we did not cover whatever it was in our studies. I called the county to clarify what they were looking for and they don't pick apart the individual sections. They just look at the overall stanine and as long as it is above a certain number, then things are fine. My daughter was well above even though she had trouble on 1 of many sections.

There are other options, but I have not explored them, yet.

So, you ARE in fact being held accountable for proving your kids are being adequately educated.

 

[Tinkermommy]

Your assumptions are just not true. I care about my kids more than anyone else, and I want them to well. If they're struggling with something, I get them help because I want them to be OK. I do give them tests at home, and I don't tell them the answers ahead of time or grade them more easily than I would someone else. In fact, I'm teaching a high school class at our co-op, and my DD complains that I grade her harder than the other students .

And, if one of my children struggles in spelling or has a learning disasbility, I would be the first to recognize it because I'm with him or her every day. I see how their minds work and what types of problems they may struggle to solve. I am the first to "admit" if my child has a problem, because I more than anyone, want them to succeed in life.

You would think that would be true but it isn't always.

My husband's cousin homeschooled her two daughters. She was a teacher before she quit and homeschooled them. The family knew something was not quite right with the girls. At every family gathering they would just sit by themselves and read. Didn't interact with anyone other than their parents.

When it was time or the eldest to go to college, they decided to hold her back so she could go with her sister who was two years younger. The girls then enrolled and went to a small catholic college near home but living on campus.

Well during a school trip with the choir, the older girl "snapped" never really found out the details but she has since be diagnosed with autism and several other disorders.

Either her parents knew she was off and didn't get early intervention for her or they had no clue, which is what they claim.

I do think if the eldest daughter were in school that this would have been caught and she would have had some early treatment to help her. Right now she lives at home with her parents. Not sure if she even has a job.

I do think that all schools should be held accountable so that children don't suffer the consequences. That goes for public, private and homeschools.

What exactly that should look like for homeschools, I don't know.

 

[princessmom29]

You would think that would be true but it isn't always.

My husband's cousin homeschooled her two daughters. She was a teacher before she quit and homeschooled them. The family knew something was not quite right with the girls. At every family gathering they would just sit by themselves and read. Didn't interact with anyone other than their parents.

When it was time or the eldest to go to college, they decided to hold her back so she could go with her sister who was two years younger. The girls then enrolled and went to a small catholic college near home but living on campus.

Well during a school trip with the choir, the older girl "snapped" never really found out the details but she has since be diagnosed with autism and several other disorders.

Either her parents knew she was off and didn't get early intervention for her or they had no clue, which is what they claim.

I do think if the eldest daughter were in school that this would have been caught and she would have had some early treatment to help her. Right now she lives at home with her parents. Not sure if she even has a job.

I do think that all schools should be held accountable so that children don't suffer the consequences. That goes for public, private and homeschools.

What exactly that should look like for homeschools, I don't know.

Exactly, It is sad but true that parents are often the LAST to recognize that something isn't right becuase they don't want to believe that it could happen to THIER child. I have seen situations similar to more often than I care for. The school says there is something going on and the child needs to be tested. Mom promptly pulls them out to homeschool becuase the school couldn't possibly be right, and they know their child better than anyone at school possibly could. THEY don't see it, but it is there nonetheless. Fast forward to high school or college and the parent is finally forced to admit there is a problem, years too late.

 

[Momvic5]

And when they are not educated to the point of being able to support themselves, the general public ends up paying to support them. That ias the crux of my issue. When you (the general you) choose not to educate your children, the whole of society ends up fottingthe bill. As long as that is the case I think there should be some accountability. I think there needs to be some form of accountability in ALL forms of education, not just homeschool. I am not going to take a teacher's word that she is educating the students without any evidence to back that up. Why should that be any different when the teacher just happens to be mom?

Sadly, I do know of two boys who were failed when it came to their parents educating them. As young boys, they went to public school but were absent so often that the school began investigating them. Their parents were eventually found to be 'neglectful' parents. As a result, this particular family moved and pulled their children completely out of school. They used homeschooling as their avenue to do it legally. They had no intentions of homeschooling their boys. It is truly unfortunate that all homeschoolers are judged by such extreme examples. However, the boys are now in their early twenties. Though they were failed by their parents and did not receive an education, they both have a desire to live and make money. They are both security guards by night, and by day, they work for the city collecting money on toll roads. They do not have high paying jobs, and they are struggling, but they are not asking the general public to "foot their bills" . I think you are taking rare cases, putting them into extreme situations, and trying to make them the norm. Your concern is really for children who are not receiving an education - not children who ARE being homeschooled. Insisting on a test for homeschoolers is not going to cure parents who are neglectful or failing their children. Those extreme cases will exist whether a test is issued or not.

With that said, I homeschool two of my three children. My oldest child(who was homeschooled his fifth through eighth grade years) is a sophomore in our public high school. I see exactly what is expected of him in his Pre-AP classes, and honestly, unless a parent is doing absolutely nothing with their children, homeschooled children have nothing to worry about when it comes to taking standardized tests. In years past, I was against standardized testing for all of the reasons already discussed, but now that I have experience firsthand with our public schools, I am totally at peace with the idea.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Becuase generally, people who feel the need to hide ARE in fact hiding something. Right to privacy and unwillingness to be accountable are two very different things.

YOUR logic doesn't make sense to me. I have nothing to hide. I am perfectly willing to have my child tested if necessary to prove that. How does that mean I am not aware of her education outside of that test? One has nothing to do with the other.

I was speaking of public schools. If a child does so poorly on a test to cause a flag on these magical standardized tests, the child's shortcomings surely SHOULD have been noticed earlier in the year. Waiting until Feb-April and not getting results until the end of the school year or after the year is over is too late to do something.

You have nothing to hide, but I noticed you did not answer my earlier question of whether authorities (CPS or their equivalent in your state) should have the right to hold you accountable as a parent by requiring you to submit to annual home visits to make sure that you are keeping your children safe.

Per your own statements, wouldn't it serve the public interest to make sure that we don't have to foot the bill for your children in later years to make sure that they are presently getting the love and attention they need?

 

[knitster]

Why in the world would you do that? Why not just give him more examples of the skills he has NOT mastered rather than haivng him redo problems he got RIGHT?

Why do you care how she chooses to have her son correct his work??

Who is "anyone else"?

If it is you, then you are owed absolutely nothing and have no right to have my children's education "proved" to you.

Exactly.

The "state" represents the concerns of the general public. You and I are both part of the state no matter how you choose to educate your children. Just because you have opted out of public education does not mean you opt out of oversight. The state does have the right to check that you are in compliance with the law and since there is no independent proof that you are doing the job correctly, the general public has an obligation to call protective services if they feel you are neglecting your children.
I don't buy any of the excuses on here for why home schooled children can not be tested. Seems more of an argument for an exception to the standards that public and private schools are held to.

As I stated in the post that you quoted, I am in compliance with my state laws and that's all the state has a right to know.

Yes, homeschools are exempt from the standards because they don't receive funding from the state. Private schools are also exempt from the standards because they don't receive funding from the state. They only test if they wish to be accredited and I have no desire to have accreditation.

How are we to know that you are keeping your children safe at home?

Are we to just take your word for it?

Are we supposed to assume you are honest about how you rear your children at home.

Maybe we should test you and your kids so that we can figure out if you are lying or not in your parenting skills.


Let me guess...you would never subscribe to such intrusion by the government, would you?

Exactly.

Bottom line: I am not willing to take someone's word for it.

Well, it just so happens that you don't have the constitutional right to demand proof from any Homeschooler, so you sort of have to take someone's word for it.

The beauty of constitutional protection is that you dont' have to "buy" anything.

Of course homeschooled parents are held to different standards that public/private schools. Could you please cite where in the constitution it indicates they have to be the same?

I have nothing to hide. It doesn't mean that I am comfortable with providing more information than is necessary.

Why would you presume people have something to hide just because they value their right to privacy?
.

Exactly.

 

[Wadekind]

I can agree to an extent. If you are concerned about welfare, then yes--do what you feel you have to do. If you just don't "like" someone's choice. That is different and just makes you a tattle tail. (or is it "tale"?)

The beauty of constitutional protection is that you dont' have to "buy" anything.

Of course homeschooled parents are held to different standards that public/private schools. Could you please cite where in the constitution it indicates they have to be the same?

FTR: I have tested my children since the grades testing has been made available. My oldest has been tested since K and my youngest began in 2nd grade because the group we were in for K and 1st wasn't able to provide testing to K and 1st. No biggie. We do it for our own information. Sometimes I submit scores and sometimes I don't. When I don't, I have a certified teacher who reviews the information for me and then submit to the county that she has validated that my children are where they need to be. Or she reviews our portfolio and draws the same conclusion.

For my present state, I did submit test scores last year as I did not have access to a certified teacher to review them and their portfolio. I had a mild panic as one of my children had a dip in one section of scores as we did not cover whatever it was in our studies. I called the county to clarify what they were looking for and they don't pick apart the individual sections. They just look at the overall stanine and as long as it is above a certain number, then things are fine. My daughter was well above even though she had trouble on 1 of many sections.

There are other options, but I have not explored them, yet.

You have the right to home school you do not have the right to neglect your child's education. No one on this thread advocating for some kind of oversight has disagreed with your choice to home school. The OP's situation brings to light what can happen if there is zero oversight. The supreme court ruled that the state may set educational standards but may not limit how parents choose to meet those educational standards.

 

[princessmom29]

I was speaking of public schools. If a child does so poorly on a test to cause a flag on these magical standardized tests, the child's shortcomings surely SHOULD have been noticed earlier in the year. Waiting until Feb-April and not getting results until the end of the school year or after the year is over is too late to do something.

You have nothing to hide, but I noticed you did not answer my earlier question of whether authorities (CPS or their equivalent in your state) should have the right to hold you accountable as a parent by requiring you to submit to annual home visits to make sure that you are keeping your children safe.

Per your own statements, wouldn't it serve the public interest to make sure that we don't have to foot the bill for your children in later years to make sure that they are presently getting the love and attention they need?

I DID answer your question. As I said, I have nothing to hide. It wouldn't bother me, because I have nothing to hide from them.
And yes, good public schools DON'T count on standardized tests to tell them how thier kids are doing. They really SHOULD be nothing more than documentation of the job they are doing, the same as they would be for a homeschooler. If they catch a problem that the school failed to identify then they would not be doing their job. The same would apply to a homeschool situation. I don't think I said differently?

Why do you care how she chooses to have her son correct his work??

Just interested in what purpose it would serve.

Exactly.



As I stated in the post that you quoted, I am in compliance with my state laws and that's all the state has a right to know.

Yes, homeschools are exempt from the standards because they don't receive funding from the state. Private schools are also exempt from the standards because they don't receive funding from the state. They only test if they wish to be accredited and I have no desire to have accreditation.



Exactly.



Well, it just so happens that you don't have the constitutional right to demand proof from any Homeschooler, so you sort of have to take someone's word for it.
Yes, taxpayers do have a right to know. Education is COMPULSORY, and many states DO require accountability. More should.






Exactly.

 

[Becky2005]

Exactly, It is sad but true that parents are often the LAST to recognize that something isn't right becuase they don't want to believe that it could happen to THIER child. I have seen situations similar to more often than I care for. The school says there is something going on and the child needs to be tested. Mom promptly pulls them out to homeschool becuase the school couldn't possibly be right, and they know their child better than anyone at school possibly could. THEY don't see it, but it is there nonetheless. Fast forward to high school or college and the parent is finally forced to admit there is a problem, years too late.

That argument can go both ways though, when the parent is telling the school there is a problem and the school ignoring it & probably thinking you are a crazy parent even though they also brought it up every year as a problem in conference!!! So, I would ask if he could get evaluated because of XYZ to see if there is an issue causing the problem or if it's just him being stubborn (had one teacher tell me no way would he qualify, yet 2 years later after repeatedly asking JUST for evaluation -- not even full blown testing to see if he was on track -- found out he wasn't & once they did the full testing, he qualifed for services -- only took me 4 years total of bringing it up again & again & again before we even got to the testing stage).

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

So, you ARE in fact being held accountable for proving your kids are being adequately educated.

I am missing your point?

I never claimed I wasn't held accountable.

You seem to feel that standardized testing is the ONLY way to be held accountable. It isn't. You being on your high horse about having to nothing to hide won't change that.

We as a family have CHOSEN to do testing. Some years are easier than others to just have the test scores reviewed.

I am new to this state and haven't time to fully explore the other options. But I will say I am not pleased to have to physically send in a copy of the test scores. The state, who did NOT educate my children, should not need a physical copy of them.

I have not looked into the alternatives because it requires searching out people willing to evaluate my children.

Here is the law for MY state. Since HSLDA is based here, it is unlikely it will ever become more restrictive just because you worship standardized testing and consider it the epitome of proof.

Va. Code Ann. § 22.1-254.1(C) 1. Results of any nationally
normed standardized achievement test showing the child attained “a composite score in or above the
Virginia VA-3 fourth stanine” (i.e., 23rd percentile); or 2. An evaluation letter from a person licensed to teach in any state, or a person with a master’s degree or higher in an academic discipline, having knowledge of the
child’s academic progress, stating that the child is achieving an adequate level of educational growth and progress; or 3. A report card or transcript from a community college or college, college distance learning
program, or home-education correspondence school; or 4. Another type of “evaluation or assessment which the division superintendent determines to indicate that the child is achieving an adequate level of educational growth and progress.” If you plan to submit an assessment under test option 4, it is strongly recommended that you discuss this with the school system early in the school year.

 

[princessmom29]

You have the right to home school you do not have the right to neglect your child's education. No one on this thread advocating for some kind of oversight has disagreed with your choice to home school. The OP's situation brings to light what can happen if there is zero oversight. The supreme court ruled that the state may set educational standards but may not limit how parents choose to meet those educational standards.

EXACTLY

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

You have the right to home school you do not have the right to neglect your child's education. No one on this thread advocating for some kind of oversight has disagreed with your choice to home school. The OP's situation brings to light what can happen if there is zero oversight. The supreme court ruled that the state may set educational standards but may not limit how parents choose to meet those educational standards.

I could not agree more.

Unfortunately there are those on this thread who are misguided and feel that they are entitled to force testing upon others as the only sufficient proof that I am not neglecting my children.

Much earlier up thread, I posted that I had no issues with what the OP did.

A standardized test as the ONLY means of evaluation limits the parents.

 

[Wadekind]

Can you refer me to the supreme court rulings that back your positions on what the constitution says about home schooling and the role of the state?