Not educating child

[knitster]

Home schoolers should teach in a way that would allow testing and proof of their curriculum. Without some oversight, there is too much room for abuse under the guise of homeschooling. The original topic of this thread illustrates this.

I think that people who have never homeschooled have a hard time really grasping why standardized testing will never work for homeschooled children. We're talking about millions of different curricula and hundreds of different educational philosophies and methods. There is nothing "standard" about home education. It is not as simple as "teach in a way that we can test". There is no way for that to happen unless the government comes up with a million different tests that line up with a million different curricula - or they strip away our right to choose our own curriculum.

Private schools are also exempt from standardized testing, btw, and few people have an issue with that.

At any rate, I wouldn't have an issue in the world with showing proof of curriculum or even grades/papers/etc to the state, though I live in TX, so that is a moot point.

 

[skater]

From linked article: "Problems with Legislation to Prevent "Unqualified" Families From Homeschooling
Larry and Susan Kaseman, HEM: Do we really want the government to have the authority to decide who's qualified to homeschool and how we should homeschool?"

Yes we do. This is a good roll for government. You set a minimum standard that is applied equally to all. Not everyone can teach. I could not do it very well. It is a skill set like being able to weld or repair a car or balance company accounts. Some can do it, some can not and others excel at it. If you are homeschooling and your children can not meet the minimum standard then you are not qualified. This is why OP was correct in reporting the family.

Because the government is so good at it . Though I agree with another poster who said the OP's issue is not a homeschooling one. Its a violation of the requirement to educate your children in a legitimate matter.

 

[golfgal]

I think that people who have never homeschooled have a hard time really grasping why standardized testing will never work for homeschooled children. We're talking about millions of different curricula and hundreds of different educational philosophies and methods. There is nothing "standard" about home education. It is not as simple as "teach in a way that we can test". There is no way for that to happen unless the government comes up with a million different tests that line up with a million different curricula - or they strip away our right to choose our own curriculum.

Private schools are also exempt from standardized testing, btw, and few people have an issue with that.

At any rate, I wouldn't have an issue in the world with showing proof of curriculum or even grades/papers/etc to the state, though I live in TX, so that is a moot point.

I think homeschoolers don't understand that the "standardized tests" aren't standard for a particular curriculum for an individual school, they are standard concepts that kids at a certain age SHOULD know. It tests whether a 3rd grader can add and subtract 3 digit numbers or not-and checks to see if they can do 4 and 5 number ones to see how far ahead of the curve they are. It also tests 1, 2, and 3 digits to see where they are at if they can't do 3 digit numbers--for example. It doesn't test how well your child knows XYZ curriculum. There are 100's of different curriculums used at every school in each state too--works just fine there.

Private schools are NOT exempt in our state. They would lose their accreditation if they did not participate in state testing too, and that goes for every state's accreditation process.

 

[princessmom29]

I think that people who have never homeschooled have a hard time really grasping why standardized testing will never work for homeschooled children. We're talking about millions of different curricula and hundreds of different educational philosophies and methods. There is nothing "standard" about home education. It is not as simple as "teach in a way that we can test". There is no way for that to happen unless the government comes up with a million different tests that line up with a million different curricula - or they strip away our right to choose our own curriculum.

Private schools are also exempt from standardized testing, btw, and few people have an issue with that.

At any rate, I wouldn't have an issue in the world with showing proof of curriculum or even grades/papers/etc to the state, though I live in TX, so that is a moot point.

Standardized tests like SAT 10 DO NOT cater to or follow one curriculum. Far from it. They work as a benchmark test for MANY different curricula. EVERYONE should be meeting the minimum national grade level standards, and THESE are what SAT 10 and other tests like it are measuring. I would be very suspicious of any private school that did not test its students using some sort of benchmark test. I am just as suspicious of a homeschool situation where standardized testing is completely refused. IMO, if you are not open to a standardized test that measures minimum standards, there is a reason. I have to wonder what you are trying to hide. As I have said, it is MY OPINION, but I think that any educational system that is not open to evaluation of its effectiveness would not be a place I would want my child educated. I WANT to know how my kid's education is stacking up and that minimum standards are being met.

 

[IDoDis]

The OP and his DW did the right thing by calling CPS. If a child was being physically abused, how many people here would still mind their own business and turn a blind eye?

What the woman is doing is selfish and wrong. She's setting up her daughter for a sad life. Even now if the child goes back to school, her chances of success after missing so much and not having parental support puts her at so much risk for dropping out. It's really sad.

I'm glad there are people like the OP around! It saddens me to see so many posts of people saying it's none of the OP's business! It takes a village to raise a child. There are too many incompetent parents out there so sometimes others need to step in and help.

Hat's off to you, OP!

 

[Wadekind]

I think that people who have never homeschooled have a hard time really grasping why standardized testing will never work for homeschooled children. We're talking about millions of different curricula and hundreds of different educational philosophies and methods. There is nothing "standard" about home education. It is not as simple as "teach in a way that we can test". There is no way for that to happen unless the government comes up with a million different tests that line up with a million different curricula - or they strip away our right to choose our own curriculum.

Private schools are also exempt from standardized testing, btw, and few people have an issue with that.

At any rate, I wouldn't have an issue in the world with showing proof of curriculum or even grades/papers/etc to the state, though I live in TX, so that is a moot point.

I am not against home schooling or private schools. My issue is the abuse of this right as in the OP's case.
Your rights are not being taken away when you are asked to prove that you are providing the correct level of education. Educate your children in the way you want to but there needs to be milestones at certain points of the year where their progress can be measured. I strongly disagree that simply turning over curriculum/grades/papers and tests administered by you proves the child is receiving the proper education. Self policing does not protect children like the one in OP's post as I am sure the mother would have no problem forging the grades/papers and tests.

 

[Wadekind]

I think homeschoolers don't understand that the "standardized tests" aren't standard for a particular curriculum for an individual school, they are standard concepts that kids at a certain age SHOULD know. It tests whether a 3rd grader can add and subtract 3 digit numbers or not-and checks to see if they can do 4 and 5 number ones to see how far ahead of the curve they are. It also tests 1, 2, and 3 digits to see where they are at if they can't do 3 digit numbers--for example. It doesn't test how well your child knows XYZ curriculum. There are 100's of different curriculums used at every school in each state too--works just fine there.

Private schools are NOT exempt in our state. They would lose their accreditation if they did not participate in state testing too, and that goes for every state's accreditation process.

 

[Wadekind]

Standardized tests like SAT 10 DO NOT cater to or follow one curriculum. Far from it. They work as a benchmark test for MANY different curricula. EVERYONE should be meeting the minimum national grade level standards, and THESE are what SAT 10 and other tests like it are measuring. I would be very suspicious of any private school that did not test its students using some sort of benchmark test. I am just as suspicious of a homeschool situation where standardized testing is completely refused. IMO, if you are not open to a standardized test that measures minimum standards, there is a reason. I have to wonder what you are trying to hide. As I have said, it is MY OPINION, but I think that any educational system that is not open to evaluation of its effectiveness would not be a place I would want my child educated. I WANT to know how my kid's education is stacking up and that minimum standards are being met.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

I think homeschoolers don't understand that the "standardized tests" aren't standard for a particular curriculum for an individual school, they are standard concepts that kids at a certain age SHOULD know. It tests whether a 3rd grader can add and subtract 3 digit numbers or not-and checks to see if they can do 4 and 5 number ones to see how far ahead of the curve they are. It also tests 1, 2, and 3 digits to see where they are at if they can't do 3 digit numbers--for example. It doesn't test how well your child knows XYZ curriculum. There are 100's of different curriculums used at every school in each state too--works just fine there.

Private schools are NOT exempt in our state. They would lose their accreditation if they did not participate in state testing too, and that goes for every state's accreditation process.

In both states I have lived in, they are only exempt from state mandated testing. While they still have to test, the private school gets to choose from a variety of testing resources that best fit the programs they have in place for their students.

There is not one uniform standardized test.

In the end, it ends up being the BASICS that some states require of homeschoolers when utilizing a testing option. I prefer a standardized test that tests for everything. This is for my own curiosity. The one year our group switched to a test that only tested math and language arts, I wanted to pull my hair out. I felt that it did not provide enough information. But it was perfect for families who use non-traditional methods to teach science and social sciences. (Physics for first graders or chronological history.)

So even standardized testing isn't so standardized.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

I am not against home schooling or private schools. My issue is the abuse of this right as in the OP's case.
Your rights are not being taken away when you are asked to prove that you are providing the correct level of education. Educate your children in the way you want to but there needs to be milestones at certain points of the year where their progress can be measured. I strongly disagree that simply turning over curriculum/grades/papers and tests administered by you proves the child is receiving the proper education. Self policing does not protect children like the one in OP's post as I am sure the mother would have no problem forging the grades/papers and tests.

You are making this far too simplistic.

Kids fall through the cracks in the school system every day--so even with ample reporting, it isn't fail-proof.

Yes--the more restrictive the homeschooling requirements, the more it infringes on the rights of parents. The more it gives states the argument that if they can require X, they can then require Y, and then Z and "why don't we just make them do public school at home and call it homescooling".

I understand why you have said what you said, but I disagree that more restrictions on homeschoolers is the answer.

 

[golfgal]

You are making this far too simplistic.

Kids fall through the cracks in the school system every day--so even with ample reporting, it isn't fail-proof.

Yes--the more restrictive the homeschooling requirements, the more it infringes on the rights of parents. The more it gives states the argument that if they can require X, they can then require Y, and then Z and "why don't we just make them do public school at home and call it homescooling".

I understand why you have said what you said, but I disagree that more restrictions on homeschoolers is the answer.

Sorry, but homeschoolers should have to be tested by a 3rd party to prove they are learning the basics. If you are doing your job as a teacher, this should not be threatening to you at all and it is NOT taking away your rights in any way, shape or form. It is holding you accountable for your child's education. This is not a bad thing, whether you chose to believe that or not. One test a year does not infringe on your rights and the "if they can to x they can do y" is just silly.

 

[tlbwriter]

I think that people who have never homeschooled have a hard time really grasping why standardized testing will never work for homeschooled children. We're talking about millions of different curricula and hundreds of different educational philosophies and methods. There is nothing "standard" about home education. It is not as simple as "teach in a way that we can test". There is no way for that to happen unless the government comes up with a million different tests that line up with a million different curricula - or they strip away our right to choose our own curriculum.

This doesn't make any sense. Fractions are fractions. If your curriculum doesn't teach that 1/2 of 10 is 5, it's not a "different way to teach," it's a bad curriculum.

 

[Coconut36]

I think many homeschoolers talk about "standards" also in regards to when they teach a concept. For example one might focus more on X concept for a "school year" when in a brick and mortar school they would have had to move on to another and another and another concept. In homeschooling situations they can stop, go back and spend as long as the child needs on a given concept..meaning if you test them at a given point they might not have hit a certain concept because the child was struggling with the one that precedes it so that would be an issue. That is more what I think of when someone says homeschooling doesn't follow a "standard".

I don't homeschool (what a trainwreck that would be) but I think there is a great value in homeschoolers having that flexibility..it's one of the things our kids in public schools in particular don't get anymore. If there are concepts that a teacher can see kids are struggling with they don't have the "luxury" of stopping and going over it again and again until the kids are there..they just have to press forward...and with some concepts if you don't get it you fail at the more advanced ones to come.

 

[kermit116]

You did not overstep your bounds. You acted in the best interests of the child, and now it's up to CPS to investigate whether the child is being educated or not. The unfortunate reality is that CPS may do nothing, but at this point you've done all you can to try to help what appears to be a bad situation for this child. Just my 2 cents.

I have an issue with one of my wife's former friends, who also used to be our nanny. I say "former", as my wife has little contact with her now. She had brought such drama and poor influence into our household, we decided our family was better off without her.

However, I still have a major concern with her. She took her (then) 13 year old daughter out of school last year to "home school" her. Normally, this wouldn't be an issue -- I respect the decisions of families that are doing what they feel is best for the education of their children. The concern I have is that she doesn't educate her daughter at all. Instead, she uses her as a babysitter for their one-year old.

We had utilized the mom as a nanny over the summer, but let her go when she told us that she would not be putting her daughter in school again. In fact, she wanted to be able to leave her nanny responsibilities in the early afternoon, and have her daughter finish up watching our kids each day. We told her that we couldn't do that, didn't feel that what she was doing to her child was right, and that we'd need to find a new nanny.

We recently found out from the daughter that no home schooling has taken place this fall, and that she is primarily responsible for taking care of her younger brother. My wife has had multiple discussions with the mother in the past, trying to advocate for the daughter, to no use. We have been essentially told to "butt out".

After a great deal of thought and prayer, my wife contacted Child Protective Services and filed a complaint. Do you think we overstepped our bounds?

 

[ccgirl]

Not on topic but wanted to add that my DD goes to a private school and they still use benchmark tests. Students in her school routinely score way above average. But, they still use the tests to make sure they are meeting the minimum expectations. I have no problem with that whatsoever.

OP - if you ever find the outcome of this poor girl; could you please fill us in. I have been thinking a lot about her lately.

 

[knitster]

For the record, all the homeschoolers I know - myself included - are not afraid of taking standardized tests, they just feel that it's pointless and a waste of time. Those tests are not an accurate measurement of success or failure for the home educated student. And, frankly, they're not a great measurement for the traditionally educated student, but that's neither here nor there.

My son was placement tested for a charter school when I briefly considered sending him there last year, and he scored right on target for his grade level - just as I assumed he would - so I'm definitely not afraid to have him evaluated.

This doesn't make any sense. Fractions are fractions. If your curriculum doesn't teach that 1/2 of 10 is 5, it's not a "different way to teach," it's a bad curriculum.

It's not about what the curriculum teaches, it's about when the curriculum teaches certain concepts. Just as I explained earlier, the math and history curricula that I use do not follow the same sequence as traditional public school curricula. So, when other 4th graders were learning about Texas history, my 4th grade was learning about the Vikings. And when other 5th graders were learning about order of operations, my 5th grader was learning pre-algebra.

That is a different way of teaching, not a bad curriculum.

I think many homeschoolers talk about "standards" also in regards to when they teach a concept. For example one might focus more on X concept for a "school year" when in a brick and mortar school they would have had to move on to another and another and another concept. In homeschooling situations they can stop, go back and spend as long as the child needs on a given concept..meaning if you test them at a given point they might not have hit a certain concept because the child was struggling with the one that precedes it so that would be an issue. That is more what I think of when someone says homeschooling doesn't follow a "standard".

Exactly.

 

[knitster]

It always amuses me that when public school is being discussed, one of the biggest complaints you'll hear is that teachers are just "teaching to the test" and that the standardized testing system desperately needs to be overhauled. But, when homeschooling is being discussed, those same people will insist on the necessity of standardized testing for homeschoolers.

 

[Planogirl]

It always amuses me that when public school is being discussed, one of the biggest complaints you'll hear is that teachers are just "teaching to the test" and that the standardized testing system desperately needs to be overhauled. But, when homeschooling is being discussed, those same people will insist on the necessity of standardized testing for homeschoolers.

I think that some people say that about homeschoolers because no one knows if the kids are actually being taught. You just have to take the homeschooling parent's word for it and I guess that that isn't enough for some people.

 

[horseshowmom]

I think that people who have never homeschooled have a hard time really grasping why standardized testing will never work for homeschooled children. We're talking about millions of different curricula and hundreds of different educational philosophies and methods. There is nothing "standard" about home education. It is not as simple as "teach in a way that we can test". There is no way for that to happen unless the government comes up with a million different tests that line up with a million different curricula - or they strip away our right to choose our own curriculum.

As someone who homeschooled my daughter from 4th grade through high school, I have to disagree to a point. While I can see that state issued tests could possibly be problematic due to the sequence involved, there are tests that are fine for use (such as the Stanford). I felt that it was a good idea to use those yearly when my daughter was younger. Also, I knew that at some point she would be taking the ACT, and it's good to have experience in those type of tests.

I think homeschoolers don't understand that the "standardized tests" aren't standard for a particular curriculum for an individual school, they are standard concepts that kids at a certain age SHOULD know. It tests whether a 3rd grader can add and subtract 3 digit numbers or not-and checks to see if they can do 4 and 5 number ones to see how far ahead of the curve they are. It also tests 1, 2, and 3 digits to see where they are at if they can't do 3 digit numbers--for example. It doesn't test how well your child knows XYZ curriculum. There are 100's of different curriculums used at every school in each state too--works just fine there.

Many state tests are designed to test on the sequence that the state has issued to the schools (meaning certain skills are mandated at specific grade levels). That's one reason that school administrators monitor teachers closely (to make sure they are indeed teaching what is going to be tested). However, as I said above, there are tests that shouldn't be a problem (and I'm not entirely convinced that the state tests would really be a problem either).

Sorry, but homeschoolers should have to be tested by a 3rd party to prove they are learning the basics. If you are doing your job as a teacher, this should not be threatening to you at all and it is NOT taking away your rights in any way, shape or form. It is holding you accountable for your child's education. This is not a bad thing, whether you chose to believe that or not. One test a year does not infringe on your rights and the "if they can to x they can do y" is just silly.

Personally, I wouldn't have had a problem with mandatory testing. The only issue that I would have is that some students don't necessarily test well. Generally, those tests don't determine who passes in public schools. I don't think homeschoolers should be held to any standards that public school students aren't.

 

[Nayan]

It's not about what the curriculum teaches, it's about when the curriculum teaches certain concepts. Just as I explained earlier, the math and history curricula that I use do not follow the same sequence as traditional public school curricula. So, when other 4th graders were learning about Texas history, my 4th grade was learning about the Vikings. And when other 5th graders were learning about order of operations, my 5th grader was learning pre-algebra.

That is a different way of teaching, not a bad curriculum.

This is my point exactly. Homeschoolers learn things in a different sequence then public school kids so trying to test them on the same subjects wouldn't work. Each curriculum is different and each child learns differently.