New pavilion coming to Epcot and it's not a real country

[lockedoutlogic]

Hmmm...

I'm as equally amused at the number of people that interpret these discussions as decrying Disney making money. Quite the opposite.

It's decrying the decline in capital reinvestment YTY, while also reallocating Park profits to other LOB's or to such things as stock repurchases.

The decline in capital reinvestment as a percentage of rev and profit for Parks is right there for all to see, if you want to. Compared to historical, the decline is rather depressing and shows pretty specifically where WDW fits on the corporate priority list......

Yeah...

This is me to a T.

Specifically...a systematic approach AT WDW ONLY...to modify "investment" and operations to milk her like Bossy the cash cow.

Disneyland is fine...the 8 Chinese with money are loving Disney. Japan and OTC are still holding hands and singing.

And yes...you can say "if you don't like if.. Don't go! We love it!!" and have some validity.

But...big changes in what the consumer is buying there over specifically the last 10-15 years. And none of the pixie pounders are gonna like it anymore than me down the road. I'll go to bat on this point.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

So, should the consumer look at a company's profitability before deciding to buy their product?

I think you're actually meaning the same thing that I said though. The consumer decides what is important to them and what they are willing to pay for that product. Management must weigh that in their investing and pricing decisions.

Disney would be better run/strengthened longterm if it were a private company. That is the honest truth. Because they have made their rep and money producing superior product.

Stocks kill that. They are driven by short sidedness and pure greed. Like dividends... Which are in no manner dividends anymore.

It's not gonna change and we don't need to debate economic philosophy... But that's the truth.

If you're content to tie your value and experience on vacations to the "interests of the shareholders"...then you've lost.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Again...I have to commend the conversation here...

It's real, insightful opinions...not the usual peddle pumping, shortsighted fluff

 

[lockedoutlogic]

And in order to continue making it rain for the shareholders, eventually they're going to have to pay attention to the customers.

Epcot and DHS both currently have fewer attractions today than they did on our family's first visit in 2001. Yes, we expect new attractions at DHS - but additional current attractions (LMA?) will likely be removed in the process so the net gain won't be much.

The Animal Kingdom has gained one attraction since then - and it doesn't work as designed. Fortunately they are investing in this park's future.

Magic Kingdom is the only place where we've seen ANY significant investment in the past 15 years. And for all the hoopla, it really amounts to three attractions and a restaurant.

So, for a net gain of ONE attractions in the past 15 years, what does that mean to consumers?

On the other hand, a base 1 day ticket in 2001 was $48; it is now $99 for MK, $94 for the other three parks. That's literally double the price...for a NET GAIN OF ONE ATTRACTION across the four parks.

So please tell this non-businessman how long a company can continue raising prices at this rate before their customer base simply stops showing up?

Boom

 

[Reddog1134]

On the other hand, a base 1 day ticket in 2001 was $48; it is now $99 for MK, $94 for the other three parks. That's literally double the price...for a NET GAIN OF ONE ATTRACTION across the four parks.

The price of most things has probably doubled since 2001. A gallon of gas has doubled put I'm still only getting 1 gallon of gas.

I'm actually not trying to disprove your point. I question how much a ticket would cost if we actually DID get a decent amount of new attractions.

 

[sachilles]

My opinion is they are spending a lot of money for the customers with the intent that it will yield a return. Some of that is based on what we can see now, and what is rumored in the pipe line.
You have 4 main attractions in WDW.
New Fantasy Land was just finished. Animal Kingdom is in process and the studios are rumored to happen soon.
Even with an endless supply of money and ideas to use that money, you can not instantly change all the ills. It's impractical to have all the projects happen at the same time, the construction will limit the room for guests, and the perception of it will scare people away short term. That hurts the bottom line.
There is no sense announcing a long range plan, as the whims of what is hot or not will decide what is built as late into the process as they get away with.
It's a delicate balance trying to figure out what you sacrifice today, for the good of tomorrow.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

The price of most things has probably doubled since 2001. A gallon of gas has doubled put I'm still only getting 1 gallon of gas.

I'm actually not trying to disprove your point. I question how much a ticket would cost if we actually DID get a decent amount of new attractions.

You know better...

The price of gas tripled in months in 2003 based on foreign and domestic policy and private business interests.

It never went back because the public swallowed it and the government never exerted pressure to keep it low again (gee...wonder why?)

Gas is also one of the few consumer products that has gone up AND DOWN. It's an outlier.

Real inflation has not double prices in 10 years...things have gone up alot...notably food...but not on that arc.

Wdw is also a monopoly that sets the price themselves...their prices are not a function of raw material costs or "supply and demand" as they would have you believe.

A filet minion ran $28-$32 around 2000...now the minimum is $42

Are cows more expensive now? Yes...but not 50%.

What happened is they rolled out the "discount" dining plan around 2005...and cranked the prices 30% off the bat and have increased since. But everybody was "saving money" so nobody complained.
At the same time...dump the flexible reservation system in favor of a hard one...limit staffing accordingly based on bookings. Then increase the price of the "discount" or "free" dining plan... Eliminate apps, eliminate tips... Constantly tweak.

And viola...where we at?

I know their tricks...I participated in some of them.

 

[sachilles]

Serious question for anyone in the loop. How have insurance rates and workers comp rates changed in that time.
Lots of big changes there for many corporations, have to believe WDW has had a taste of that fun.

 

[ThurlFan]

The price of most things has probably doubled since 2001. A gallon of gas has doubled put I'm still only getting 1 gallon of gas.

The cumulative rate of inflation from 2001 to 2014 was 33.7% Meaning that if you paid a dollar for something in 2001, you could expect to pay $1.34 in 2014 (2015 stats not available until late Feb)... so all other things being equal, that one day ticket should have gone up to $64.20

Which means the rate of increase for ticket prices at WDW is nearly TRIPLE the national rate of inflation. All to bring us fewer parades, lower quality food, and more homogeneous merchandise.

I'm thrilled that Disney parks are profitable, after all they are not a charity. I'm thrilled the company as a whole is not on the chopping block ready to be dismembered and parceled out to new owners, as it was in the early 1980s.

But consider this: Overall park revenue has been increasing at a SLOWER rate than the increases in ticket prices. Which means for every extra dollar people have paid to get in, they've spent more than one dollar less on food, lodging and merchandise. How will that get fixed? How long can it be sustained?

I comment because I care. I want the parks to be great when the time comes (God willing) for me to visit with my grandkids. Not the same, mind you, because attractions come and go - but of equal or greater quality and value. The current direction of the company is not encouraging in that regard.

 

[OldsDr]

The cumulative rate of inflation from 2001 to 2014 was 33.7% Meaning that if you paid a dollar for something in 2001, you could expect to pay $1.34 in 2014 (2015 stats not available until late Feb)... so all other things being equal, that one day ticket should have gone up to $64.20

Which means the rate of increase for ticket prices at WDW is nearly TRIPLE the national rate of inflation. All to bring us fewer parades, lower quality food, and more homogeneous merchandise.

I'm thrilled that Disney parks are profitable, after all they are not a charity. I'm thrilled the company as a whole is not on the chopping block ready to be dismembered and parceled out to new owners, as it was in the early 1980s.

But consider this: Overall park revenue has been increasing at a SLOWER rate than the increases in ticket prices. Which means for every extra dollar people have paid to get in, they've spent more than one dollar less on food, lodging and merchandise. How will that get fixed? How long can it be sustained?

I comment because I care. I want the parks to be great when the time comes (God willing) for me to visit with my grandkids. Not the same, mind you, because attractions come and go - but of equal or greater quality and value. The current direction of the company is not encouraging in that regard.

I love the numbers. One addition that is harder to quantify in 2001 with a length of stay pass you could go to MK in the morning, a water park in the afternoon, Disneyquest till midnight and catch the last hoopla at adventurers club. You could do this every day if you had the stamina. If you were to this today (obviously skipping PI) you would have eliminated two of your "and more" options in a single day. So there is more than just the numbers in lost value of a ticket since 2001.

I too love Disneyworld. I complain because I care and remember when quality drove profits. I want them to be profitable, because I want to return. This is the first time since 1993 that I have gone two whole years without returning and many of those years were multiple trips. I fear the price increase and overall quality decline is going to drive them into a wall. A wall where customer loyalty will be so abused that attendance will decline so rapidly that they will be unable to control it. I will probably return next year, but for me the tipping point has begun. I hope my fears never materialize and the pendulum swings back to quality driven decisions.

 

[tarheelblue8853]

When talking about prices at WDW increasing when compared to inflation of all things, I think it would be a better to compare the price of WDW compared to other entertainment/vacation items. For example, how much have tickets to sporting events or movies gone up in the last 15 years. Or how much have airline tickets or other hotel costs gone up in the past 15 years. Also looking at tickets to other theme parks or museums. Stuff like that. My inclination is that WDW would still be increasing at a rate far greater than other entertainment/travel expenses but that entertainment/travel in general would be out pacing inflation as a whole as well. It just feels like entertainment on the whole is getting more expensive at a rate much greater than other things. I don't have the time or desire to really do all that research but I just thought it would be interesting to see if somebody wanted to do it.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Serious question for anyone in the loop. How have insurance rates and workers comp rates changed in that time.
Lots of big changes there for many corporations, have to believe WDW has had a taste of that fun.

No doubt alot...

But their costs of wages has been tied to the minimum wage... Which means the increase has been...well...minimal

And they started way back then passing off large chunks of the health care costs back to CM.

No doubt that costs have gone way up too...and it is the "societal normal" to pass it along to the employee and cut corners...but they are up with the curve on that and are offered the benefit of Incredible volume discount in the insurance field.

 

[wallrock]

I don't understand how someone can think that Disney is not spending on its resorts. Maybe they're not building exactly the sort of things that I would like, but they ARE building (and building and building...). Avatarland, Expanded Africa, New Fantasyland, Disney Springs going on or just completed now - and all at WDW. Then there's California Adventure and SHANGHAI.

They're investing! Building out the whazoo! Sure, I wish they were building an Adventurer's Club, Greece Pavilion, and Headless Horseman attraction at WDW, but I don't expect them to cater to me. Instead, they are catering to what they perceive the most people want. From their perspective, that only makes sense.

Do we want Disney to me leveraged to the hilt again? NO. This would make them vulnerable. You want the Hall of Presidents, Shootin' Gallery, and France Pavilion to disappear? Let another corporation take control and split up Disney Corporation to the highest bidder.

It’s not resorts (plural), it’s the flagship campus that I think concerns most or all of us on these boards. And keep in mind that it isn’t Disney per se spending in places overseas – it’s the owners of those parks, and those that are spending are going crazy in a good way.

Avatarland is still cloudy at the moment, the Fantasyland expansion is long over and didn’t yield much of a spectacle (I know that’s subjective, but a net increase in one attraction and a few places to eat is hardly grand). As far as Disney Springs…building a shopping mall is not going to get me on a plane to Orlando.

And Disney isn’t going to get leveraged to the max by putting in a large investment. The company prints money on demand and wouldn’t have to bat an eye to put a billion or so any of the four existing parks in Orlando.

Lastly no attraction is sacred at the moment. It’s been proven many times that attractions disappear when Disney decides they need to go - they don't need outside influence to help with that.

 

[wallrock]

When talking about prices at WDW increasing when compared to inflation of all things, I think it would be a better to compare the price of WDW compared to other entertainment/vacation items. For example, how much have tickets to sporting events or movies gone up in the last 15 years. Or how much have airline tickets or other hotel costs gone up in the past 15 years. Also looking at tickets to other theme parks or museums. Stuff like that. My inclination is that WDW would still be increasing at a rate far greater than other entertainment/travel expenses but that entertainment/travel in general would be out pacing inflation as a whole as well. It just feels like entertainment on the whole is getting more expensive at a rate much greater than other things. I don't have the time or desire to really do all that research but I just thought it would be interesting to see if somebody wanted to do it.

You can't really compare the cost of a Disney vacation to the cost of a sporting event or other singular activity. To say that the cost of that event ticket has gone up by a higher percentage than Disney’s increase somehow justifies that increase doesn’t hold water, not when you’re talking literally hundreds of dollars versus fifteen or twenty.

There’s been a long standing debate on these boards about the per night cost at a Disney hotel versus properties off campus, but it’s safe to say that Disney’s increase has far outpaced other hotels by a wide margin.


A long passion of mine has been visiting national parks. I’ve hardly felt a bump in the road regarding the expense of heading to one of those destinations compared to the price of Disney, or even a movie ticket.

 

[clsteve]

Serious question for anyone in the loop. How have insurance rates and workers comp rates changed in that time.
Lots of big changes there for many corporations, have to believe WDW has had a taste of that fun.

Click on the Disney Why...? TDO footprint.... link in my sig, below. Theres some analysis and comparisons on this in first post of the thread.

 

[mkunichi]

1. By comparison, how much have Universal tickets gone up?
2. Did prices of multi-day passes proportionately to single-day prices?


2000 2010
One Day 46 99
5 Day 206 304+60 park hopper


So it looks to me like single day prices doubled but a 5 day went up by 77%. However, I you didn't park hop, pricing only went up by 50%.

So it is true that WDW ticket prices went up more than inflation between 2000 and 2014. But WDC decided to:
1. charge the one day guest more of a price premium
2. add ala carte option pricing for options like park hopping and to charge extra for each option

 

[KenDoll]

I know this now off topic based on the turn this thread has made but I just wanted to put my own two cents in! I would rather this be a brand new country to the WS but nonetheless I am excited for anything new so Frozen theme it is!

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I know this now off topic based on the turn this thread has made but I just wanted to put my own two cents in! I would rather this be a brand new country to the WS but nonetheless I am excited for anything new so Frozen theme it is!

Even if frozen had nothing to do with the concept of the park and could represent a Waterloo moment for EPCOT?

 

[Yellowstonetim]

I haven't read this whole thread, but I just wanted to say what low and shameless writing by Stitch Kingdom. The writer knew perfectly well there is no new pavilion and only a new ride and new character meet and greet building. They even put "pavilion" in quotes. The arguments made in the article like how 13,000 feet is a mansion are ridiculous.

It is - in my opinion - a form of journalistic dishonesty. Sensationalism to get readers and attention. The website version of Miley Cyrus.

Bad form.

I will know not to give credence to what this website says in the future.

P.S. Hey Lockedoutlogic: See, I can be negative about some things.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I haven't read this whole thread, but I just wanted to say what low and shameless writing by Stitch Kingdom. The writer knew perfectly well there is no new pavilion and only a new ride and new character meet and greet building. They even put "pavilion" in quotes. The arguments made in the article like how 13,000 feet is a mansion are ridiculous.

It is - in my opinion - a form of journalistic dishonesty. Sensationalism to get readers and attention. The website version of Miley Cyrus.

Bad form.

I will know not to give credence to what this website says in the future.

P.S. Hey Lockedoutlogic: See, I can be negative about some things.

You're learning, kid