New pavilion coming to Epcot and it's not a real country

[rteetz]

I haven't read this whole thread, but I just wanted to say what low and shameless writing by Stitch Kingdom. The writer knew perfectly well there is no new pavilion and only a new ride and new character meet and greet building. They even put "pavilion" in quotes. The arguments made in the article like how 13,000 feet is a mansion are ridiculous. It is - in my opinion - a form of journalistic dishonesty. Sensationalism to get readers and attention. The website version of Miley Cyrus. Bad form. I will know not to give credence to what this website says in the future. P.S. Hey Lockedoutlogic: See, I can be negative about some things.

I was just reporting what I read. If I didn't think this was bigger news I would've just put it in the news roundup thread and not given it its own thread. Yes I realize it's not a new pavilion but a 13,000 square foot building going on a expansion pad next to Norway is pretty big news I think.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I love the numbers. One addition that is harder to quantify in 2001 with a length of stay pass you could go to MK in the morning, a water park in the afternoon, Disneyquest till midnight and catch the last hoopla at adventurers club. You could do this every day if you had the stamina. If you were to this today (obviously skipping PI) you would have eliminated two of your "and more" options in a single day. So there is more than just the numbers in lost value of a ticket since 2001.

I too love Disneyworld. I complain because I care and remember when quality drove profits. I want them to be profitable, because I want to return. This is the first time since 1993 that I have gone two whole years without returning and many of those years were multiple trips. I fear the price increase and overall quality decline is going to drive them into a wall. A wall where customer loyalty will be so abused that attendance will decline so rapidly that they will be unable to control it. I will probably return next year, but for me the tipping point has begun. I hope my fears never materialize and the pendulum swings back to quality driven decisions.

This is an excellent anecdote.

My fears are similar...and a little more focused on this trend of trying to cater to the "upper class" means.

When your means increase... Your tastes evolve, increase. It's natural. At first it's dump the Ford for a BMW....then it's custom build 4,500 sf in a better burb, then it's private school, writing a check for an ivy, and a $150,000 wedding for princess...

And on and on... To some varying degree.

Disney parks were designed to sell to the middle and upper middle class. There is no disputing that. To be inclusive to those that had the means for a bit of extravagance.

The middle is effectively gone... Disney has marketed overseas - particular Latin America and Western Europe - to stopgap that. That market is and always will be volatile and in danger of going up in flames...they know it.

The error to me is that they are now equating " upper middle" with "lower to middle wealthy"

And that is flawed. Because the two are not the same. That "upper middle" chunk is responsible for about 90% of the patronage of DVC...and that block is also shrinking.

Wealth...and a largely unchanged themepark complex are not compatible longterm. Those with no budgets still want quality or the public perception of quality or exclusivity...

Does Anaheim think that they won't tire of "Disney parks 20__" screen printed sweatshirts and unimaginative restaurants with declining quality ingredients?

The nose will turn...and when word gets around...it's gonna be a steep and precipitous slide.

That's what I'm seeing...taking the place "exclusive" that ignores the stength in numbers protection that was built in by design. Even Eisner never really lost site of that.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I was just reporting what I read. If I didn't think this was bigger news I would've just put it in the news roundup thread and not given it its own thread. Yes I realize it's not a new pavilion but a 13,000 square foot building going on a expansion pad next to Norway is pretty big news I think.

I agree...

Taking one of the built in "phase II" expansion pads after all these years is big.

And on it? Not another cultural symbol ( even if very stereotypical...is still a reference point)...but a photopass and merch peddling queue line.

That is significant

 

[pigletto]

The website version of Miley Cyrus.

Best analogy ever.

 

[rteetz]

This is an excellent anecdote. My fears are similar...and a little more focused on this trend of trying to cater to the "upper class" means. When your means increase... Your tastes evolve, increase. It's natural. At first it's dump the Ford for a BMW....then it's custom build 4,500 sf in a better burb, then it's private school, writing a check for an ivy, and a $150,000 wedding for princess... And on and on... To some varying degree. Disney parks were designed to sell to the middle and upper middle class. There is no disputing that. To be inclusive to those that had the means for a bit of extravagance. The middle is effectively gone... Disney has marketed overseas - particular Latin America and Western Europe - to stopgap that. That market is and always will be volatile and in danger of going up in flames...they know it. The error to me is that they are now equating " upper middle" with "lower to middle wealthy" And that is flawed. Because the two are not the same. That "upper middle" chunk is responsible for about 90% of the patronage of DVC...and that block is also shrinking. Wealth...and a largely unchanged themepark complex are not compatible longterm. Those with no budgets still want quality or the public perception of quality or exclusivity... Does Anaheim think that they won't tire of "Disney parks 20__" screen printed sweatshirts and unimaginative restaurants with declining quality ingredients? The nose will turn...and when word gets around...it's gonna be a steep and precipitous slide. That's what I'm seeing...taking the place "exclusive" that ignores the stength in numbers protection that was built in by design. Even Eisner never really lost site of that.

And that is why Iger has not been good for WDW. He has been an amazing CEO for the entertainment side of things and he should be that's where he came from. Eisner at first was all about the movies and shows but he got hit with the theme park bug and just invested in ways he could and should have hence why many say the build up craze of WDW in the 80s and 90s was a golden age for Disney. Now it's about money money money and small only very necessary investments in the parks that get them more money. That's why we see more hard ticket events and more DVC. Eisner did start DVC but I'm sure by no means would he have taken it to this level of being at every deluxe except one and possibly even moderates. I am not old enough to know the Disney of the 70s and 80s I basically only know the Disney of the last decade or two. That doesn't mean that I can't notice a change in what's going on and how things are operated.

 

[Planogirl]

I'm wondering about something....

From my understanding, American visitor numbers have actually been shrinking while foreign attendance has been on an incline. Which makes me wonder if those other nations are offered great pricing like the British are? I've seen some of the good deals offered to the British and it's a shame that nothing like that is ever offered to domestic visitors. (I don't count "free" dining and don't ever see hotel discounts as anywhere as good.)

 

[rteetz]

I'm wondering about something.... From my understanding, American visitor numbers have actually been shrinking while foreign attendance has been on an incline. Which makes me wonder if those other nations are offered great pricing like the British are? I've seen some of the good deals offered to the British and it's a shame that nothing like that is ever offered to domestic visitors. (I don't count "free" dining and don't ever see hotel discounts as anywhere as good.)

While I agree I'm sure they are paying much more in airfare.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I'm wondering about something....

From my understanding, American visitor numbers have actually been shrinking while foreign attendance has been on an incline. Which makes me wonder if those other nations are offered great pricing like the British are? I've seen some of the good deals offered to the British and it's a shame that nothing like that is ever offered to domestic visitors. (I don't count "free" dining and don't ever see hotel discounts as anywhere as good.)

That is largely tied to exchange rate...

The pound is still pretty strong to the dollar...but down.

The euro is at a near all time low.

It's quite simple: Europeans will go where their money stretches the farthest.

For along time...America was a better deal. If its not - the faucet turns off.

Different, but equally troublesome thing in Latin America - particularly brazil.
Alot of estimates say that brazil is economically tapped out and destined for collapse after 20 years of stretching it.

If that happens? You won't be seeing as many flags bouncing around the parks.

It is... In a word..."precarious"

 

[nkosiek]

While I agree I'm sure they are paying much more in airfare.

And though I'm sure Disney is looking at that, Disney doesn't own BA or Virgin Atlantic. I think the lockedoutlogic has it right in that exchange rates are the big factor.

That said, he's dead wrong about dollar/euro exchange rates. Best rates were when the Euro was founded and the day it became a hard currency. I was living abroad around that time...it was good to be a Yank.

 

[Josh Hendy]

This is an excellent anecdote.

...

The nose will turn...and when word gets around...it's gonna be a steep and precipitous slide.

...

At a big store near my house, I went in a couple of days after the New Year to buy a couple of things. I came up against a lineup for the "express cashiers" queue that was waaayy out in the aisle where I've never seen it before, except maybe on Dec. 24 at 5pm. Then I look up and down the row of cash registers and I figure, they've eliminated about 1/4 to 1/3 of the normal number of cashiers. And there's no more "greeter" at the door. This happened very suddenly. Somebody had a very bad Xmas shopping season is what I figure.

I had a little moment of fantasy, imagining that I would look for the manager and threaten to take my business down the road to the nearest competitor. But in the car the news says: the competitor's stores are closing ... all of them in Canada. Somebody else had an even worse Xmas season.

So yes, things can go south pretty steep and precipitously. It may be happening right now at WDW, or it might happen soon, but you might not notice it immediately with the way that they can quietly reduce the number of ride vehicles in play, the number of tables/wait staff etc.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

And though I'm sure Disney is looking at that, Disney doesn't own BA or Virgin Atlantic. I think the lockedoutlogic has it right in that exchange rates are the big factor.

That said, he's dead wrong about dollar/euro exchange rates. Best rates were when the Euro was founded and the day it became a hard currency. I was living abroad around that time...it was good to be a Yank.

The euro shot right up and has never been as low as it is right now $1.11 and falling.

It was targeted at a 1:1 rollout and was something like $0.96-0.98 at first as I recall.

You get my point...the trend...not a specific date in time.

 

[Planogirl]

At a big store near my house, I went in a couple of days after the New Year to buy a couple of things. I came up against a lineup for the "express cashiers" queue that was waaayy out in the aisle where I've never seen it before, except maybe on Dec. 24 at 5pm. Then I look up and down the row of cash registers and I figure, they've eliminated about 1/4 to 1/3 of the normal number of cashiers. And there's no more "greeter" at the door. This happened very suddenly. Somebody had a very bad Xmas shopping season is what I figure.

I had a little moment of fantasy, imagining that I would look for the manager and threaten to take my business down the road to the nearest competitor. But in the car the news says: the competitor's stores are closing ... all of them in Canada. Somebody else had an even worse Xmas season.

So yes, things can go south pretty steep and precipitously. It may be happening right now at WDW, or it might happen soon, but you might not notice it immediately with the way that they can quietly reduce the number of ride vehicles in play, the number of tables/wait staff etc.

Great post. You might say that Rome wasn't built in a day and it didn't fall in a day either.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Great post. You might say that Rome wasn't built in a day and it didn't fall in a day either.

I'm more worried that they are detaching the entertainment experience of the property with the revenue...notably in the parks.

Timeshares and shopping malls...not innovation in the ticket price.
Reminds me of myrtle beach in a way

 

[Planogirl]

I'm more worried that they are detaching the entertainment experience of the property with the revenue...notably in the parks.

Timeshares and shopping malls...not innovation in the ticket price.
Reminds me of myrtle beach in a way

The signs are all there. Firing good talent to bring in new more humdrum or bad talent. Brushing aside theming to bring in today's hot new thing wherever. Cheapening the menus. Pushing DVC to make that quick money. Sacrificing a view and a fountain at much loved resort. The list goes on.

I hope that the changes at DHS aren't done cheaply. I don't think that Cameron will allow it but I worry about Star Wars.

 

[Laketravis]

The signs are all there. Firing good talent to bring in new more humdrum or bad talent. Brushing aside theming to bring in today's hot new thing wherever. Cheapening the menus. Pushing DVC to make that quick money. Sacrificing a view and a fountain at much loved resort. The list goes on......

Reminds me of something an associate of mine once said. It's like a ball of twine - it doesn't unravel all at once, but slowly over time.......

 

[Yellowstonetim]

I was just reporting what I read. If I didn't think this was bigger news I would've just put it in the news roundup thread and not given it its own thread. Yes I realize it's not a new pavilion but a 13,000 square foot building going on a expansion pad next to Norway is pretty big news I think.

Just to be clear, it was good of you to post this. It is Disney news and an appropriate item to share in its own post. I did not mean to cast dispersions on your posting the item. I just did not like the way the article was written. This poor website is just the straw that broke the camels back for me lately. This happens more today at all levels of reporting. It is sad, but maybe seen as necessary in the internet age.

 

[KenDoll]

Even if frozen had nothing to do with the concept of the park and could represent a Waterloo moment for EPCOT?

They are going to make what they think will have the most return on investment and frozen clearly is here to stay so I do not think it is a matter of the parks original concept from opening day more as it is where they believe they have room and probably to get my young ones in epcot.

 

[Smiling72]

MORE Disney is just sensational......yay!!!! Looking forward to checking it out in the future.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I do not think it is a matter of the parks original concept from opening day more as it is where they believe they have room and probably to get my young ones in epcot.

Here's where we disagree...

Why are your young ones in charge?

 

[Mikeyuk]

I really hope it is more than just meet and greet and is allowing an expansion of the frozen ride