Need thoughts regarding violent behavior in kindergarten class

[mjkacmom]

I wish I could understand this as well especially when many children with special needs/disabilities cannot get an aid when they need one.

If these children have one on one aides, they have been diagnosed with a disability. It's very hard to get a one on one aide for a child.

 

[scrapquitler]

I feel for this boy, I really do. I don't think anyone should be denied an education. I have a real concern that this child has only been in this class for less than 2 weeks. In less than a week his behavior has progressed from what I'd consider to be fairly harmless kicking from behind, to spitting into someone's face and now to a sudden outburst that drew blood on a student. Not to mention all of the other incidents that haven't been reported, and the regular actions he has that scare the other kids to the point of crying in class. While I do understand what the parent that has a child on the opposite side of this is saying and I cannot imagine the daily struggle you go through. .

I just wanted to mention to you two things:

First, this is the beginning of a school year. It sounds like this boy needs some time to get adjusted (and it might be much more difficult and take longer for him to adjust than it would take the average child). I don't know his diagnosis or particular issues, but for children with issues, adjustment and changes to routines are often HUGE big deals and tke a long time to work thru. Additionally, if he hasn't been in K before, the adjustment to being in school might mean that his medical team is working on adjusting dosages of medications. You wouldn't have any idea about it (and the teacher might not even...we sometimes adjusted my DDs meds and didn't tell the teacher because we wanted unbiased feedback from her on how moods/behaviors were changing) But with kids that age, changing medication dosages is a time consuming trial and error process. Changes in his behavior might be nothing more than a med change, and it might just even out after a little while once he gets the new dose into his system.

Secondly: its not just like deciding "he needs a one on one aid". If only it were that simple. The PPT team will have to meet, debate, evaluate and then decide. Then they hire someone, train them, etc. Even getting the team to meet to discuss the child if he doesn't already have a IEP in place can take a LONG time. So if it seems like nothing is being done, don't panic, they might have a certain time period when they have to notify the PPT team of a meeting, wait for that time to elapse, then meet, etc.

If you meet with the teacher she will probably be able to discuss SOME of this with you (but privacy laws, you might not get details) and you'll probably feel better about it. The teacher will probably work thru some coping strategies for dealing with him with the kids...my DD had a couple students ini one of her classes with certain issues, and there were times that the teacher had class meetings and they discussed how to deal with that student in a non-confrontational way, etc. That did help all the kids, I think.

 

[AmandaRG]

Unfortunately on one hand, I have some experience in this matter. We were foster parents for a time, and did the best we could with our son.

I feel for this boy, I really do. I don't think anyone should be denied an education. I have a real concern that this child has only been in this class for less than 2 weeks. In less than a week his behavior has progressed from what I'd consider to be fairly harmless kicking from behind, to spitting into someone's face and now to a sudden outburst that drew blood on a student. Not to mention all of the other incidents that haven't been reported, and the regular actions he has that scare the other kids to the point of crying in class. While I do understand what the parent that has a child on the opposite side of this is saying and I cannot imagine the daily struggle you go through. As the parent of a child that we are blessed does not have those kind of conditions I have to say as much as any child has the right to an education, DD has equal rights to her education and not to fear being in the classroom. My personal thought is this little boy is 5, obviously he's not getting far academically if he's constantly acting out. It would seem to me the focus should be more on teaching him behavior in a social setting as opposed to mainstreaming him and hoping he absorbs something academically related in the process. Meanwhile the other kids in the classroom might not reach their full potential due to the constant disruptions and stress this one child is causing. I think the foster mom is probably doing all that she can, although personally I don't see where making sure he's getting a warning first with violent behavior is helpful. She seems to be a bit misguided here. To me all it's teaching this child is he gets a freebie warning before an consequence happens. If this involves talking out of turn, the basic pushing and line cutting common with this age group, yes a warning is totally appropriate. Drawing blood and other violent actions to me need to have a set consequence that is applied immediately with no warning. At the very least I do feel an apology is needed for these instances to the children affected.

I agree with another posted that mentioned some time for him to adjust. For all we know, he was placed in the foster home and was immediately enrolled in school Whatever this boy has been through, I can easily see anger issues. I'm so very sorry that your child is seeing society in some of the worst ways at an early age.

As for asking about a warning: foster children are usually under the care of several professionals that work at behavior plans, coping techniques, etc. The foster parents are EXTREMELY limited at what they can do for discipline. CPS is in control of the child, not the foster parents. Not an easy position to be in, especially with behavior issues at school. The foster mom was most likely reminding the teacher of the behavior plans that would have been presented when enrolling the child in school.

I wish I could understand this as well especially when many children with special needs/disabilities cannot get an aid when they need one.

Sounds to me like this child has special needs.


In our instance, the agency did not fully inform us of issues and background. After a few months he had to be removed from our home for my safety (he was aggressive towards women and threatened to kill me). We showed up unexpectedly at the agency and requested to look at his file. I assure you what we saw in our surprise visit was nothing like the one that was presented to us for placement! After seeing his life history, I really understood why his behavior was what it was, but it in no way excused it. He honestly needed to be in a strict setting, not a family one.

OP, I know you want to protect your daughter, but this boy has issues and keeping him away from other children will not allow him to learn needed social skills. Though I have not had to deal with this type of thing (so much aggression), there are kids that play more roughly than others. I teach my girls even now (k and pre-k) to just stay away from them.

As for the academia, from what I understand (your schools may be different), kindergarten is largely learning routine and social skills. Your daughter was in a preschool, it seems as if this boy likely wasn't.

 

[Mama Who]

I understand that the foster mom is limited on what actions she can take at home. Then again I still don't agree with her main concern over the spitting issue being that he'd gotten a warning first.

You've gotten a lot of good input but I wanted to touch briefly on this point. While I totally understand your frustration that it sounded like that was mom's main concern, it is possible that she was simply asking to gather all the information so she could have a full step by step break down of the incident with the kid later. Sometimes the best method of reaching understanding with a little guy involves going over everything that happened in order. She may just need to talk him through the chances he had to avoid consequences before doling them out so he recognizes the control he had over the situation.

I've dealt with a kid who needed that kind of rehashing, so this just felt familiar. I thought it might make you feel a little better to know that she wasn't necessarily making light.

Sounds like you have a good kiddo.

 

[kirstenb1]

You've gotten a lot of good input but I wanted to touch briefly on this point. While I totally understand your frustration that it sounded like that was mom's main concern, it is possible that she was simply asking to gather all the information so she could have a full step by step break down of the incident with the kid later. Sometimes the best method of reaching understanding with a little guy involves going over everything that happened in order. She may just need to talk him through the chances he had to avoid consequences before doling them out so he recognizes the control he had over the situation.

I've dealt with a kid who needed that kind of rehashing, so this just felt familiar. I thought it might make you feel a little better to know that she wasn't necessarily making light.

Sounds like you have a good kiddo.

I agree with everything you wrote. When you're trying to teach appropriate, new behaviors to special needs kids, it's critical to follow "the plan" every time. Maybe their discipline plan at home includes a warning each and every time. So she's trying to make sure the teacher is consistent in following that strategy.

And OP, you sound like a great Mom!!

Our younger dd has mild autism, and is mainstreamed in kindergarten. I know I must sound like a nutjob at times, if someone were to overhear our conversation. But there are many positive behaviors that we're trying to reinforce. It helps dd to have consistency in the way we speak and interact with her. BTW, she has no violent tendencies, quite the opposite. So I'm usually trying to get her to ask for help, teach her how to talk to friends, how to make friends, etc.

 

[MSSANDRA]

OP, sounds like you are doing a good job at keeping things balanced. Reality is, as upsetting as some of his behaviors may be, they are not likely to result in a setting change. So many more factors come into play and children with much more serious behavior issues are being mainstreamed.

I was surprised that you were made aware that this is a foster child. In most schools, confidentiality would not allow that discussion to take place. It is very likely that if this is a new placement and the foster mom and school work together, his behavior may get much better soon!

 

[Jey12]

I really appreciate all of the wonderful advice from everyone! Thank you so much! I knew over DD's school career she'd run into issues but I wasn't quite prepared for it all to start 2 months into kindergarten.

Update: I heard through the mom gossip line (I usually only listen to every other word, and then believe half of what I listen to) that I was incorrect in my understanding he's a foster kid. He's been in foster care, but now is back with mom. He and his older brother (who had problems much like Joe) were removed last year from their home and placed in foster care. If this is true I still really feel for the kid. This would also explain mom asking questions about the warning, because I'm sure she's been through some pretty extensive parenting classes. At the same time, yes I understand some people, adults as well as kids need guidance, I prefer their choices in life don't so directly affect my kid. I have a general expectation that when I go to work that a coworker is not going to kick, spit and scratch me, and I'm better equipped to deal with that if it did happen than a 5 year old. That's been my main concern regarding DD. She's only 5 and that's a lot to deal with, especially when she's only in class for 4 hours a day. I'm so torn because I believe that kids that have conditions that cause these outbursts do deserve to be around kids their own age and in a classroom setting. For most kids this could be the best form of therapy for them. At the same time I think it's a lot to ask a young child to just learn to work around violent behaviors. Then again I go and think that young kids are more forgiving than adults, and tend to let go of things faster and move on.

I did speak with the principal and she assured me that she and the teacher talked at length yesterday about putting a different plan into action in the classroom that would hopefully eliminate most of the problems, geared towards completely eliminating the violence. Also the school counselor will be dropping into the classroom to help out on a regular basis until things seem to calm down a bit. I am perfectly fine with all of this. The school seems to be on top of things and they are concerned for the child acting out as well as the other students in the classroom. Sounds like a good plan for the day for me. She told me they will change and modify this plan as needed and hopefully avoid further violent outbursts. So far Joe has only been physical and not verbally abusive so that's one bright point to look at in this situation. I'd prefer neither, but one is better than both together.

My chat with DD also seems to have worked with her regarding not always thinking Joe is going to hurt her or one of her friends. She said her other friends were yelling at each other today so she went to play with other kids. (Have I mentioned how impressed I am with DD sometimes? ) She was like yeah the girls were fighting so I just went to play somewhere else. If she can keep this kind of thinking up I don't think I'm going to have to worry about her now or later in life. Anyway, Joe came up and asked if he could play and she said they had a good time playing at recess. DD did act upset this morning and said she was scared to go to school. Now while I understand things have been difficult here lately, I also am not quickly fooled by a 5 year old's ability to milk a situation. So we had a quick chat (my foot up her hind end kind of chat) this morning and what do you know? She had a great day.

Again thanks so much for all of the info. Also thanks for the comments of what a great kid I have. I'm pretty partial to thinking that, but it's nice to hear from others! She really is great and I'm thankful every day our biggest issue is getting her to change her underwear.

 

[Jey12]

I was surprised that you were made aware that this is a foster child. In most schools, confidentiality would not allow that discussion to take place. It is very likely that if this is a new placement and the foster mom and school work together, his behavior may get much better soon!

double post

 

[Jey12]

OP, I know you want to protect your daughter, but this boy has issues and keeping him away from other children will not allow him to learn needed social skills. Though I have not had to deal with this type of thing (so much aggression), there are kids that play more roughly than others. I teach my girls even now (k and pre-k) to just stay away from them.

As for the academia, from what I understand (your schools may be different), kindergarten is largely learning routine and social skills. Your daughter was in a preschool, it seems as if this boy likely wasn't.

I totally agree that learning proper social skills needs to be learned around other kids, but at the same time I'd prefer my child not be used as a guinea pig with a child that has violent behavior. It's one of those catch 22 things, I understand the need, but it becomes one of those as long as it doesn't involve my child kind of things. Thankfully it seems things are more on a directed course, so I'm hoping for the best in the upcoming weeks. I expected certain things to happen once she started school, I think it was the scratching of another student that seemed unprovoked and the little boy having to be physically removed from her arm he had such a tight grip. When I went to pick up DD today I realized there's a lot to learn from kids. As far as they were concerned what happened yesterday was done and let's focus on right now.

As far as academics in our district in kindergarten the kids learn to read, they are already reading sight books, and will move into short chapter books by the end of the year. They are doing basic math and will be prepared for the most basic of algebra starting in the 1st grade. They spend at least an hour a week learning how to navigate basic computer skills.

I was surprised that you were made aware that this is a foster child. In most schools, confidentiality would not allow that discussion to take place. It is very likely that if this is a new placement and the foster mom and school work together, his behavior may get much better soon!

I was surprised I was told that information as well. I really wasn't asking about the little boy's situation, but rather what steps could I take as a parent to help her not feel threatened in the school and of course what was the school doing to protect her from incidents such as this. As it turns out I may have been informed wrong, and it really doesn't matter. I half pay attention to things like that anyway. If what I heard today, which was he's back with his mom after being removed and placed into foster, the same rules are probably going to apply. I'm sure mom is working with a case worker that is helping her with her parenting skills. Mom may not have any social skills and her kids haven't had the chance to learn them. As long as they progress together and things continue to get better I'm fully supportive. If we continue on with increased violence then I have to stand up for my daughter and protect her. She knows what is expected of her and that what we expect isn't usually going to match what other kids are expected to do. As long as she doesn't have a good reason to be fearful of going to school I'm more than willing to let the teacher, principal, counselor and the boy's mom do their thing to get this worked out.

 

[Mama Who]

It's a hard situation because you're absolutely right- this boy's needs and problems do not get to be so important that your daughter is unsafe at school. Whatever help he needs or is entitled to stops at the boundary of her body and NO special need makes it okay for her to be in a position of being spit on or hit in the classroom.

We have a saying in my playgroup (where we have a number of SN kids of various types.) "No need is THAT special." We're sorry your autistic teen has impluse control issues but when they manifest in choking a kid half his size without provocation, you're going to be asked to take him home. We understand your deaf preschooler is trying to express his anger, but you are required to prevent him from grabbing other children by the hair and screaming into their ears. Physical violence isn't acceptable. The "non-specials" have needs too and their need to not be hurt is just as important.

I am glad your daughter is willing to give him room to be better. Maybe that inclusiveness will be a stepping stone that allows him to recognize other children as positive parts of his environment rather than targets.

 

[kirstenb1]

Our older dd went to school with a boy who had incredibly sudden and violent outbursts. In kindergarten, they tried various solutions. In first grade, he threw a desk at a veteran teacher of 28 years. I was substitute teaching a Title One class and his teacher brought all her students into my class, for safety. One of them was our older dd.

Our county is small. There are 3 elementary schools. He was placed at one of the other schools, because there was a special ed teacher who specialized in emotionally disturbed children.

I'm so happy to say, there's a good ending to this story. He spent the rest of elementary at the other school. I always prayed for him, because you could tell it wasn't his fault. Who wants to be a violent 5 yr old?

Our older dd saw him again when she started middle school. She'd remembered him. She told me he was doing great. He'd learned how to manage his anger, make friends, and rejoined everyone at middle school. (we only have one middle school in the county.

OP, you're right to protect your dd. I just wanted to let everyone know these kids can change, especially if they receive help early.

 

[carrie1626]

This child could already have known negative tendencies ( maybe even a confirmed diagnosis). It is not going to be shared with you. The ADA assures that every child receive an education regardles if the disability is mental or physical.

I volunteered in my son's K-class many years ago and there was "JOE" in his class, too. Behaviors were astonishing and yet,.... he stayed.

I think it's time to take this up with the school principal and ask that this child have a teacher's aide in the class for all the reasons you described. Hopefully, your district isn't under major budget cuts and that isn't the reason given to you why there isn't one already.

It isn't fair to your daughter or any other child in the classroom. OR the teacher.