Need SERIOUS Help with Cynical DH!

[snicker-doodle]

Hello all. If it were my choice, I'd put down DVC payment today! But, unfortunately, my DH is completely not convinced. Just a little history on the man I love so dearly....he's a 100% numbers guy who has to research the death out of every investment, he's very cynical (at the very least, extremely cautious) and completely doesn't like to be tied into anything. Flexibility and getting the most for his $$'s is of critical importance to him.

I ordered the video/materials from DVC...and he's budged from absolutely NO to, "fine...I'll look it over, but don't get your hopes up."

There are a few questions you "experts" could help me with. These may have been previously asked...sorry, I do try to keep up with the DVC boards.

First.......historically, what has been the increase of the annual dues? He's thinking we'll buy into this at $50-60/month and our dues will double in the next 5-10+ years.

Then....sadly....what would happen if either or both my DH and I were to die w/in the next 40 years? Would the property automatically go to our 3 DD's?

Also.....has anyone stayed at the concierge resorts? How do the points needed there compare to the WDW resorts? What about international concierge resorts...how point spendy are those. We went to Australia on our honeymoon and are thinking of going either there or to Europe on our 10 year anniversary.

Finally....(whew!).....what is the importance of your "home" eresort. Is it more difficult to get ressies at a "non-home" Disney resort or concierge resort.

Thank you....thank you...for those that respond. It really is much appreciated. ALL pros and cons of DVC ownership are welcome. I'll print of the responses for my DH to read. We're heading to BCV with our three DD's in December on rented points...can't wait to do that! But now....DH thinks that renting points is a more cost-effective route to go. UGH!!!!!

 

[Caskbill]

I can answer a few of your questions.

1. Annual Dues. While I don't have the information for all the resorts, I do have it for OKW for our home resort since we purchased in 1993. The chart below shows the dues, rounded to the nearest penny. You can judge for yourself. As you can see, after 9 years, the dues have increased a total of 25.8%....A far cry from doubling in 5 or 10 years...
<Table border><TR ALIGN="center" VALIGN="bottom"><TD BGCOLOR=#FFFF99 COLSPAN=3><FONT FACE="Arial">Old Key West Dues</FONT></TD></TR><TR ALIGN="center" VALIGN="bottom"><TD BGCOLOR=#FFFF99><FONT FACE="Arial">Year</FONT></TD><TD BGCOLOR=#FFFF99><FONT FACE="Arial">Dues</FONT></TD><TD BGCOLOR=#FFFF99><FONT FACE="Arial">Change</FONT></TD></TR><TR VALIGN="bottom"><TD BGCOLOR=#FFFF99 ALIGN="right"><FONT FACE="Arial">1993</FONT></TD><TD BGCOLOR=#FFFF99 ALIGN="right" STYLE="vnd.ms-excel.numberformat:0.00"><FONT FACE="Arial">2.56</FONT></TD><TD BGCOLOR=#FFFF99 ALIGN="right"><FONT FACE="Arial"> </FONT></TD></TR><TR VALIGN="bottom"><TD BGCOLOR=#FFFF99 ALIGN="right"><FONT FACE="Arial">1994</FONT></TD><TD BGCOLOR=#FFFF99 ALIGN="right" STYLE="vnd.ms-excel.numberformat:0.00"><FONT FACE="Arial">2.70</FONT></TD><TD BGCOLOR=#FFFF99 ALIGN="right" STYLE="vnd.ms-excel.numberformat:0.0%"><FONT FACE="Arial">5.5%</FONT></TD></TR><TR VALIGN="bottom"><TD BGCOLOR=#FFFF99 ALIGN="right"><FONT FACE="Arial">1995</FONT></TD><TD BGCOLOR=#FFFF99 ALIGN="right" STYLE="vnd.ms-excel.numberformat:0.00"><FONT FACE="Arial">2.84</FONT></TD><TD BGCOLOR=#FFFF99 ALIGN="right" STYLE="vnd.ms-excel.numberformat:0.0%"><FONT FACE="Arial">5.2%</FONT></TD></TR><TR VALIGN="bottom"><TD BGCOLOR=#FFFF99 ALIGN="right"><FONT FACE="Arial">1996</FONT></TD><TD BGCOLOR=#FFFF99 ALIGN="right" STYLE="vnd.ms-excel.numberformat:0.00"><FONT FACE="Arial">2.99</FONT></TD><TD BGCOLOR=#FFFF99 ALIGN="right" STYLE="vnd.ms-excel.numberformat:0.0%"><FONT FACE="Arial">5.3%</FONT></TD></TR><TR VALIGN="bottom"><TD BGCOLOR=#FFFF99 ALIGN="right"><FONT FACE="Arial">1997</FONT></TD><TD BGCOLOR=#FFFF99 ALIGN="right" STYLE="vnd.ms-excel.numberformat:0.00"><FONT FACE="Arial">3.15</FONT></TD><TD BGCOLOR=#FFFF99 ALIGN="right" STYLE="vnd.ms-excel.numberformat:0.0%"><FONT FACE="Arial">5.4%</FONT></TD></TR><TR VALIGN="bottom"><TD BGCOLOR=#FFFF99 ALIGN="right"><FONT FACE="Arial">1998</FONT></TD><TD BGCOLOR=#FFFF99 ALIGN="right" STYLE="vnd.ms-excel.numberformat:0.00"><FONT FACE="Arial">3.17</FONT></TD><TD BGCOLOR=#FFFF99 ALIGN="right" STYLE="vnd.ms-excel.numberformat:0.0%"><FONT FACE="Arial">0.6%</FONT></TD></TR><TR VALIGN="bottom"><TD BGCOLOR=#FFFF99 ALIGN="right"><FONT FACE="Arial">1999</FONT></TD><TD BGCOLOR=#FFFF99 ALIGN="right" STYLE="vnd.ms-excel.numberformat:0.00"><FONT FACE="Arial">3.16</FONT></TD><TD BGCOLOR=#FFFF99 ALIGN="right" STYLE="vnd.ms-excel.numberformat:0.0%"><FONT FACE="Arial">-0.3%</FONT></TD></TR><TR VALIGN="bottom"><TD BGCOLOR=#FFFF99 ALIGN="right"><FONT FACE="Arial">2000</FONT></TD><TD BGCOLOR=#FFFF99 ALIGN="right" STYLE="vnd.ms-excel.numberformat:0.00"><FONT FACE="Arial">3.16</FONT></TD><TD BGCOLOR=#FFFF99 ALIGN="right" STYLE="vnd.ms-excel.numberformat:0.0%"><FONT FACE="Arial">0.0%</FONT></TD></TR><TR VALIGN="bottom"><TD BGCOLOR=#FFFF99 ALIGN="right"><FONT FACE="Arial">2001</FONT></TD><TD BGCOLOR=#FFFF99 ALIGN="right" STYLE="vnd.ms-excel.numberformat:0.00"><FONT FACE="Arial">3.13</FONT></TD><TD BGCOLOR=#FFFF99 ALIGN="right" STYLE="vnd.ms-excel.numberformat:0.0%"><FONT FACE="Arial">-0.9%</FONT></TD></TR><TR VALIGN="bottom"><TD BGCOLOR=#FFFF99 ALIGN="right"><FONT FACE="Arial">2002</FONT></TD><TD BGCOLOR=#FFFF99 ALIGN="right" STYLE="vnd.ms-excel.numberformat:0.00"><FONT FACE="Arial">3.22</FONT></TD><TD BGCOLOR=#FFFF99 ALIGN="right" STYLE="vnd.ms-excel.numberformat:0.0%"><FONT FACE="Arial">2.9%</FONT></TD></TR></Table>

2. DVC is treated just like any other real estate you might own and would be treated according to your will.

3. Generally most members probably think using DVC points for anything other than stays at DVC resorts is not an efficient usage of points. However, if you search the posts you will find many instances where people love using points for concierge stays. This is more a personal choice. You can easily compare the point cost for a stay, factor in your dues for those points, and them compare that to what a cash ressie would be at one of those resorts. Don't forget to include the $75 ressie fee when you do this. You can also trade for other condos thru II, but in this case you must trade a week's worth of points for a full week elsewhere. (no daily ressies allowed)

4. Home resort has no bearing on using points outside of DVC resorts. So the cruise line, or concierge collection etc are not affected by home resort. Your home resort does give you an 11-month booking advantage. You can book your home resort points at your home resort 11-months ahead, but you can only book your points at a different resort only 7-months ahead. This is important if you expect to be going during busy seasons on a regular basis. If you are very flexible, or go off-season, then home resort is not as important. However, keep in mind some resorts have high popularity (BWV has high demand, and it is expected BCV will also, because of the locations). BWV has a standard view room which is fewer points than preferred view. So these standard view rooms tend to reserve first. They may not be available at 7-months for certain times of the year. The advice always given here is that you should purchase your points for the resort you plan on staying at the most often.

Hope this helps.


Now, let me list all the CONS to DVC membership next.

...

Well, guess that's it.

 

[Richyams]

I think Disney's experience in running hotels allowed them to make very accurate estimates of replacement and refurbishment schedules. I am very comfortable, especially knowing that by law they can't make a profit on mantainence fees, with the future of these fees.

Going in off season does not minimize the importance of 'home resort'. Off season for WDW is high season for DVC. Home resort is very important. Definitely buy where you intend to stay most.

Home resort has nothing to do with non-DVC stays. As far as cruises, Concierge Collection, World of Disney(or whatever they are calling non-DVC resort hotels, AKL, CR, GF, etc), points is points. Home resort is meaningless for points spent on these things.

While the points are high and renting your points out at $10 and then using the cash for a cruise or some other non-DVC stay will usually end in saving money, many of us couldn't be bothered. Its worth it to make the phone call and reservation. While the vast majority of our stays have been at OKW, we have used points for other things. We cruised once, we stayed at The Plaza in NYC and in October we are staying in an AKL COncierge room. Buying points to use strictly for non-DVC things is probably a bad idea, but having the options for an occasional change is invaluable.

We have been members since '92 and think it was the best money we ever spent.

 

[Granny]

snicker-doodle....caskbill and Richyams have done a great job answering your questions, so I'll just try to address the decision process itself.

If you look at DVC by the numbers, here's how it makes sense:

1. You want to travel to WDW often in the next 40 years (at least every 3 years). You can trade out your points to other locations, but most feel that doing this regularly is not the best use of DVC points.

2. You believe that staying on-site is critical to your WDW vacation experience. If not, you can probably shop for cheaper accommodations every year, though you will not be guaranteed a consistency of quality. Also, while hotel rooms in the Orlando area are discounting presently due to reduced tourist traffic, I think it is safe to say that the inflation rate on hotel room rates will be much higher over the next 40 years than the annual dues increases.

3. You like to stay at resorts which are a "step up" from budget....either moderates or deluxe resorts. If you normally look for the lowest cost place to stay (budget hotels, etc) on vacations, DVC will probably not fit that description. On the other hand, if the quality of the accommodations is seen as an integral part of your vacation enjoyment, the DVC resorts are awesome.


Here's how it made sense for my family. We would "save up" to go to WDW every other year and stay in deluxe accommodations because it makes the vacation SO much better. We never thought we could afford any of Disney's "home away from home" accommodations due to the prices. That was just wishful thinking.

DVC made such luxurious accommodations possible and affordable for us.

One other benefit....it definitely "forces" us to take more high quality vacations. For me, getting away from work always seemed to be difficult, but DVC forces me to think about vacation planning more, and I find that somehow my company survives without me while I'm on vacation. So DVC not only enhanced our vacations, it made them more frequent and of much higher enjoyment.

DVC is not for everyone. But it is rare that you hear "buyers remorse" from DVC members.

Oh, and one other thing for the numbers guy....you could always buy into DVC and use it for a few years and then resell it. The trend won't last forever, but those who bought OKW in 1992 can now sell those points for more than they paid for them. As DVC continues to build and raise prices, the resale market continues to rise as well. So the risk associated with this vacation investment is substantially lower than other timeshares that mostly rapidly decrease in value over the years.

Good luck in your decision!

 

[PamOKW]

. As you can see, after 9 years, the dues have increased a total of 25.8%....

Just to take a little closer look at the numbers.....the majority of this increase took place in the first few years of DVC's existence. DVC seems to have gotten a very good grasp on how to manage expenses and has kept the dues rate almost steady since 1997. Looking at the chart, you can see in 1997 dues were $3.15 compared to 2002 when they were $3.22. That's a $.07 or 2% increase over the last 5 years.

If you look at the rack rate room increases, you'll see a much more dramatic increase. An OKW 1-bedroom during Regular season in 1997 went for $305. The 2003 rate is $385. That's an $80 or 27% increase. Simiilar increases can be found throughout WDW.

 

[zulaya]

I think a lot of your questions have been answered, but let me point out one more thing. Of all the DVCers on this board, I think you would find just about everyone would say, "I wish I had bought DVC sooner." I know I felt that way once we joined this past March and now, I am searching for a resale contract at OKW because I want the flexibility of taking my extended family every 3 years or so to a Grand Villa.

Renting points has its advantages, and while I view myself as a trustworthy person who has rented points, I know if I was always renting, it would bother me that someone else always had CONTROL of my vacation reservation. It's a personal thing with me; I just don't like giving control up--especially for my vacations!

Another thing about renting, if you choose to go at a busy DVC time of year, you may have difficulty finding a reservation with the location and room size that you want. Again, renters are at the mercy of the availability of points and DVC rooms available. Why take the chance year after year that you may not get what you want?

Also, have your DH look at the dues schedule posted above. Not only did the dues not double over the last 10 years, over a couple years, dues actually went down! DVC would not have the success they have had if they did not treat their members fairly. You'd see people dumping their contracts on the resale market if they were so upset about dues, etc.

Hopefully, once you get there in December (I know, you probably hope to get this resolved before then) your DH will be able to experience for himself the "magic" of DVC. I know, cliche, but I can't find another word for it that would sum up the way I feel about it.

Good luck and hope to "welcome" you "home" as a new DVC member soon.

 

[ripleysmom]

Yeah what they said.....

The only other thing that I will add is that you really need to see the accommodations to truly understand what all the fuss is about, especially the one bedrooms and up. Find some pix of those, show them to your hubby and tell him that this is where you could be staying for about the price of a moderate (once your points are paid off, of course).

Until you see the accommodations, you truly cannot appreciate what a deal DVC really is IMHO.

 

[Peter Johnson]

I too was a doubter when DW wanted us to go to the preview in March 1992. After seeing the preview and running the numbers, I was a believer. It was certainly the most cost-effective way to take frequent vacations to WDW and stay on property.

But out of all the benefits we'ge gotten from owning DVC, the most important was unforseen at the time we joined, yet gets more important each year:

DVC forces us to take vacations.

As Granny said, we found it hard to take meaningful vacations before DVC. Now we go each May and December for 12 days. We truly believe that those long vacations increase our quality of life year round.

It has also saved us a ton of money, allowed us to stay in deluxe accomodations, and gives us something to look forward to. We don't have kids, so we'll just have to tough it out till the end. Watch out for us -- by 2041 we'll be crazed octogenarians with our canes and wheelchairs

 

[SusanD]

My husband was also reluctant at first. He found the Disboards and I discovered the DVC resales. If numbers are a prime consideration I would suggest you check out the resales through the Timeshare Store or other reputable brokers.

We were able to purchase more points than we originally planned for far less money than buying from Disney. It was a simple process and the benefits are no different than buying from disney (except financing).

Don't forget that it is wise to buy where you want to stay. The 11 month booking window is important when you are traveling at peak times.

 

[mikesmom]

My DH is also a numbers man - an accountant AND economist, he crunched those numbers 'til they cried out in pain! Everyone has given you good information, but here are a couple of more thoughts:

Until we bought at DVC, we had stayed offsite for several trips so we compared to those numbers. If you stay at something more than the $59 specials (not always available) the rates offsie an get up there. We generally tried to get something with a little extra room because of our teenage son. Embassy Suites, Quality Suites, etc. tended to be around the $110 - $120. From posting s on these boards, I see HIFS runs in that range. PLUS, you have to add on Florida taxes, which I believe are over 11%. Offsite rooms have risen steadily over the last 10 years (except for last year, and that was unusual circumstances). At those prices, DH figured we'd be ahead of the game in 5 or 6 years.

Yes, renting points probably IS the way to go now. But I notice the word is spreading fast about DVC on the "Resorts" and "Budget" board. I figure it's just a matter of time until critical mass is reached and there are more folks trying to rent than want to rent out. At that point, it may not be so easy OR the price of rental will go up.

DVC saves you money. Even if you don't cook at all, having a kitchen to keep drinks, snacks, breakfast items, leftovers, etc has a very saving effecton the food budget. Granted, we have a teenager and the snacks and drinks can mount up.

 

[erikthewise]

snicker-doodle,

If you wish, I could email you a spreadsheet I recently used to convince myself it's cost effective, not in 40 years but in 10 to 15. (You'd have to give me your address as I can't do attachments through the board's email system.)

But I never believed it was ALL about numbers -- that was just one aspect of it. Do you want to go to WDW every year or two and stay onsite in high-quality resorts? Are you willing to make a modest commitment to doing so? (Modest in comparison to actually buying a vacation home!) Do you prefer having rooms with 700+ sq ft to those with 350-400 sq ft?

In the short run it would be cheaper to rent points, if you don't mind being at the low end of the food chain. I decided I preferred to be a member rather than living off other people's points. Our plans this year have required multiple calls to Member Services and use of waiting lists, and they've been great! If you rent, everything has to be done through a third party; you can't call Member Services.

Though I haven't done that analysis, I suspect that in the long run, it's cheaper to be a member. Even renters have to keep paying for the points, year after year. It's kind of like buying a car rather than leasing one; it really pays off after it's paid for!

The idea of annual fees doubling is just plain misguided IMHO. I expect fees to stabilize around $4 per point per year, or perhaps even lower. The growth rates you see for annual fees are more a result of being low to start with than anything else.

 

[joepoe]

As an investment, it sures is beating heck out of my 401k the past three years. LOL!

Secondly, we love taking nice family vacations, and this is a great way to "pre-pay" for those vacations and really cut down on the cost of top-notch accomodations over the next forty years-in fact, that cost is zero after 7-10 yrs.

 

[Simba's Mom]

More support here. DH was like yours-a numbers man. He's an engineering manager and the word "vacation" wasn't much in his vocabulary. He just tolerated my Disney obsession, and only agreed to buy DVC, I think, to please me (didn't even take the sales tour). Well, all that changed after he took his first trip to DVC (specifically OKW). Since we've returned, we bought a new bedspread (on his recommendation) because "it said 'Old Key West' " to him. And the word "vacation" (along with "Disne" and "Old Key West") has come from his lips unsolicited at least 3 times. Who is this man? He LOOKS like my husband!

 

[gracelrm]

You mentioned 3 DD. If they are still young, you may fit in a standard hotel room without much problem, but as they get older - there's no way! That was one of the selling points to me (although it didn't take much to convince me!). I have three children too and right now with one being a baby we could still fit into standard sized rooms, but in another year or two that won't work. Now we get the 1-bedroom villas and enjoy breakfast in our room and place to store snacks, drinks, etc... which helps to cut down the cost of our trip. Soon we'll need the two bedrooms as the kids grow and where else are you going to find such wonderful accomodations. Oh and don't forget - more bedrooms mean more bathrooms and you did say you had 3 daughters!!!!!! Have your husband invision sharing one bathroom with 3 teenage daughters - surely this alone would help to convince him!

 

[RAD]

DW and I like to stay at premium resorts and after, but the prices keep climbing and we found that we had to cut back on the number of days we stayed vs. what we wanted to stay. Since we visit WDW at least once a year, looking at current hotel prices and how they've increased and what type of accomidations (we love the 1BR's) we took the plunge. Are we sorry we did, no. In 12 weeks we're taking a large number of family members to BWV for six days. I check on the Disney web site for what they quote as room rates and using their numbers we would be spending over $15,000 for the number/types of rooms we're getting. Yes, we had to bank 1/3 of our points and borrow from the next year but there's no way we could do this without DVC. Forget the numbers, go with the heart.

 

[Disney On The Bayou]

Ask him how much money did he make or save the last time the family has gone to the movies. How much money did he make or save the last time he went to Walt Disney World. Do you see where I’m going? If he is up tight about spending this money on DVC up front do you ever think he is going to pay those rates yearly to use DVC resorts on a cash basis? NO WAY. You and your family will just simply missed this opportunity. I was explaining to my brother one time about DVC, I told him that this year if I would have paid cash for all my reservations, that it would have cost me $11,345. He looked at me and said, "You didn't save that money, because for that price you would not have made so many reservations". That's the point, he's right, I would have never been to WDW 6 times this year and have another trip planned for Christmas. But with DVC I have chosen to live a life style where that is possible and doesn't effect my financial situation. Its a lifestyle, not an investment, he can go through all the numbers and it comes down to "Do I want live a lifestyle that forces me to go at least once every year and enjoy a wonderful vacation with my family and friends?" I've seen it so many times before, we don’t have to join DVC to go to WDW, we can go whenever we want. And time and time again, there comes another excuse to push back that trip... that never comes. Good luck!

 

[OKWKirt]

Being an engineer I loved playing with the numbers before we bought in 1997. Prior to that I didn't give much thought to timeshares, now we have three. Prior to 1994 I didn't give much thought to staying onsite because it was too expensive, now I don't want to stay offsite. In June we stayed offsite for three days then four at OKW. I had high anxiety and a headache until we got to OKW and then I was "home" and felt great (two welcome homes at the front gate sure helped). Back to the numbers - I calculated the payback on my investment using OKW rack rates and came up with 5 years, which is what most people come up with. I then said that would be nice but without DVC I would stay at the moderates (we stayed at CBR, DI, and DXL) so I used their rack rates and came up with an 8 year payback. I thought 8 years was a great payback and we would be staying in luxurious accomodations instead of the moderates. Now when we travel we are so spoiled with one and two bedroom units with kitchen and living room that we hate staying in a regular hotel room. Without DVC, and my other timeshares, I would never pay $400 a night for a room but using points you don't realize what you are paying because it is paid for and your only paying dues.

 

[Mouse Ears]

I am one of the numbers guys. I have lurked around these boards for quite a while without joining. I am now finally in the process of buying points at Beach Club Villas. I wish I would have done it when I first looked and the price was around $60 per point.

Here are some of my reasons for deciding to do it.

- We have 3 daughters (5 and under) and can't imagine staying in a normal room with them (sharing 1 bathroom!) and getting 2 rooms at a budget hotel is not as nice as a two-bedroom suite.

- Although I have never been to any of the DVC resorts, I love the looks of them and the Beach Club theme, location, and pool is hard to beat.

- We can buy the minimum number of points and borrow or bank to achieve trips every 1 1/2 to 2 years, still allowing for vacations elsewhere in the off years.

- We will just add-on if I decide I need more points.

- If it doesn't work out after 5-6 years, I will just sell my points and probably will break even. The value of the resort points has consistently gone up since Disney has kept their resorts in top shape and the demand for DVC continues to be strong. My only concern here is that more 'home away from home resorts' might spread out the demand somewhat over the years, but not so far.

- I ran the numbers myself. I found that the internal rate of return for DVC is around 6-10% depending on your assumptions for inflation of room rates and dues costs. Further, the 'real' cost of the 1 BR DVC resort is roughly equivalent to that of the moderates (plus tax of course).

In all, I view it as a great prepaid vacation option since I know that we will want to visit WDW at least every 2-3 years and stay in suite accomodations on property. Since that is my goal, DVC is undoubtably the way to go. So, now I'm just not-so-patiently waiting for all my paperwork to go through.

Good luck!

M.E.

 

[caverill]

All the about posters have made excellent points!

One comment on saving money...

I have found since we joined DVC, we don't "save" money. We just spend it in a better way . Since the "room" is paid for, we splurge on better meals, more gifts, etc.

I have also found we enjoy our vacation much more. We don't rush around each theme park trying to do everything. We know we will be back soon. Last year we actually went two days without visiting a theme park during our stay.

Also, the flexibility of DVC gives you many options. We have stayed at our home (BWV), VB, and also used our points to stay at the Grand Hotel on Mackinac Island.

Not staying at a DVC hotel will cost more points, but I really doubt we would have experienced the Grand Hotel without being DVC members (and it was well worth the points!).

 

[llp479]

We joined in 98. One of the biggest reasons, was DD #3. Our girls are now 8,8, and 5. There is NO WAY we can stay in a regular "hotel" room any longer. As for getting two rooms, most newer resorts don't have adjoining rooms, which means if you're luck enough to get to rooms next door to each other, you and your DH end up sleeping in seperate rooms!

We love DVC so much, we bought a resale at OKW this past Feb.