My long night home from EPCOT, those darn double loading buses and the EPCOT boat...

[EastYorkDisneyFan]

Just so I understand all of this as I am from Canada and as far s I know the rules for disabled access may be deferent the the ADA ones. There have been times were people have said that if a Bus is full to wheelchairs and ECV then it is full to everyone else. Then waht hapens say in a city like New York where a bus at "Crush load" which means it is full with seats and satndies pulls up to a stop with 3 people 2 are standing one is in a wheelchair, 2 people get off the bus, would the drive stop the 2 people who are nit in a wheelchair from getting on the bus?

Another thing I don't understand is why people who want to be treated like everyone else complain hen they have to wait in a line with everyone else. Yes the new system and line seem unfair to what it was before, but are you 100% sure it is against ADA. From what I have found in looking at what I can find online regarding the issue Disney only has to provide the service were possible.

Is loading two buses at once and not being able to load wheelchairs/ ECV unfair I would say yes, is it illegal maybe not, again there seams to be a bit of a grey area to me that says it is OK for them to do this.

 

[Here we go again...]

On the downside, we did encounter four young women (20ish) sharing two ECVs (by sharing I mean literally sharing the seat, two girls riding together on each ECV) in Magic Kingdom. They got in line directly behind us and commented (to each other) on how much easier it was to ride through the parks than it was to walk, and why hadn't they thought of this on previous visits. These comments, of course, lead me to believe that the ECVs were a convenience not a necessity. I know that there are people who require mobility aids who don't have an apparent disability, but from their conversation, these girls were VERY obviously abusing the system..and they weren't even quiet about it..really bothered me. Believe me, my husband would give anything to be able to walk the parks again.

This is a tough one. I have severe disablities that will not allow me to walk through the parks all day or stand long. Riding in a wheelchair or ECV is sometimes more painful than walking. I actually had my daughters friend with us on one visit and decided it was a day I wanted to walk. I went to guest services to get a GAC. Once I had it in hand and started to walk out the door the young girl with us very loudly said "Good, now we get to CHEAT the system". Everyone turned and looked at us. I was so embarassed. I can only assume that she hears remarks like this from her parents who have said before that they wish they could "travel like us". I would gladly take a day without pain and let you have my GAC, thank you.
Maybe the person riding needed the chair but the rider just thought it was fun. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt.

Just so I understand all of this as I am from Canada and as far s I know the rules for disabled access may be deferent the the ADA ones. There have been times were people have said that if a Bus is full to wheelchairs and EVC then it is full to everyone else. Then waht hapens say in a city like New York where a bus at "Crush load" which means it is full with seats and satndies pulls up to a stop with 3 people 2 are standing one is in a wheelchair, 2 people get off the bus, would the drive stop the 2 people who are nit in a wheelchair from getting on the bus?

Another thing I don't understand is why people who want to be treated like everyone else complain hen they have to wait in a line with everyone else. Yes the new system and line seem unfair to what it was before, but are you 100% sure it is against ADA. From what I have found in looking at what I can find online regarding the issue Disney only has to provide the service were possible.

Is loading two buses at once and not being able to load wheelchairs/ ECV unfair I would say yes, is it illegal maybe not, again there seams to be a bit of a grey area to me that says it is OK for them to do this.

This is a violation of the ADA in the United States.
Please remember that many people do not just get to the front of the line because they are in a scooter. When I get there a bus is usually already loading and I wait for the next bus. By then I am entitled to be on that bus. Not by the looks of a lot of people in line, but I am.

When staying at a resort with multiple stops the biggest problem is loading when there are people on the bus. No one wants to move and I get the "if you run over my toes you are going to be sorry" look. I hate loading when there are people on the bus. But, there is never a bus that comes to a multi stop resort that is empty unless you are at the first stop. Trust me, if I could walk I would.

 

[BillSears]

...Another thing I don't understand is why people who want to be treated like everyone else complain when they have to wait in a line with everyone else....

I don't mind waiting in line, I'm fine with that. What I don't like is waiting in line, getting to the front and then watching 100 people who were BEHIND me in line get on 4 different buses and leave while I had to wait in a second line. If they can find a solution so that when you get to the front of the line you board the bus no matter if you are walking or using a wheelchair/ECV then we'd all be very happy.

The double loading of buses and not loading a wheelchair/ECV on a bus if the bus has already started loading have to be stopped. Those 2 practices guarantee that wheelchair/ECV users will have a longer wait than those who can walk onto a bus.

 

[lovetoscrap]

. There have been times were people have said that if a Bus is full to wheelchairs and ECV then it is full to everyone else.


Is loading two buses at once and not being able to load wheelchairs/ ECV unfair I would say yes, is it illegal maybe not, again there seams to be a bit of a grey area to me that says it is OK for them to do this.

I keep wondering about this statement. I swear that Sue mentioned not too long ago that, while this is what keeps being said, she couldn't find a reference to it. Does someone have the actual ADA section/wording that says that if the handicapped person can not be put on the bus then no one else can either and the bus must leave with no further passengers?

It would be helpful to know either way with the actual wording of the ADA to back it up.

 

[pampam]

I keep wondering about this statement. I swear that Sue mentioned not too long ago that, while this is what keeps being said, she couldn't find a reference to it. Does someone have the actual ADA section/wording that says that if the handicapped person can not be put on the bus then no one else can either and the bus must leave with no further passengers?

It would be helpful to know either way with the actual wording of the ADA to back it up.

I too am wondering this. I looked for 2 hours this morning on the ADA website and any other place I could think of to print it out, but I haven't seen it. I'm not saying it isn't there, I just cant find it.

 

[SueM in MN]

I too am wondering this. I looked for 2 hours this morning on the ADA website and any other place I could think of to print it out, but I haven't seen it. I'm not saying it isn't there, I just cant find it.

I had been told that by a bus driver in a PM and he had even emailed me a link to a reference for it. So, I did actually see it in writing in an officisl sort of way. As a result, I did post that information in the past
About 2 years ago, I looked for documentation of it because I lost the original link. Since I can no longer prove it because I lost the link, I am no longer posting it and actually did post a disclaimer several times in the last 2 years.
I have tried to find it again, but my searches have not brought up
anything. I know it is not in the ADA or Federal Transportation Rules. It may have been in an agreement to a complaint, but I have not been able to find it.

 

[lovetoscrap]

I had been told that by a bus driver in a PM and he had even emailed me a link to a reference for it. So, I did actually see it in writing in an officisl sort of way. As a result, I did post that information in the past
About 2 years ago, I looked for documentation of it because I lost the original link. Since I can no longer prove it because I lost the link, I am no longer posting it and actually did post a disclaimer several times in the last 2 years.
I have tried to find it again, but my searches have not brought up
anything. I know it is not in the ADA or Federal Transportation Rules. It may have been in an agreement to a complaint, but I have not been able to find it.

So really the idea that a bus must leave everyone behind if the wc can't be loaded is/was only a Disney policy and is NOT an ADA requirement.

I think this is a very important distinction because it seems that it gets stated here as an ADA law when it is mentioned, and so it really is an important thing to realize that we don't have a leg to stand on (or a wheel to sit on!) legally as far as this. And without a reference to it in writing it really is an idea that should be set aside in these discussions and just focus on how access can be fair. Otherwise we, as a group, start to look bad if we try to force the issue using this unproven statement as the basis of the argument.

 

[peemagg]

I did find on the Federal Transportation site that when they double load buses it is against the law, because it is discrimination due to the fact that the second bus is inaccessable to the disabled. I will find it again later and copy and post it here if anyone wants me to.

 

[mrsksomeday]

I did find on the Federal Transportation site that when they double load buses it is against the law, because it is discrimination due to the fact that the second bus is inaccessable to the disabled. I will find it again later and copy and post it here if anyone wants me to.

Please post that .

 

[dclfun]

Can't post a link right now, but the place to report violations to the government is the Department of Justice.
You can google it and find a link to make complaints pretty easily.

Thanks Sue! Here's the info I found. I would prefer to address the issue directly with Disney, and don't feel that I personally could file a complaint as I haven't had an issue myself (yet). But for anyone else who has.....

Title III prohibits discrimination based on disability in public accommodations. Private entities covered by title III include places of lodging, establishments serving food and drink, places of exhibition or entertainment, places of public gathering, sales or rental establishments, service establishments, stations used for specified public transportation, places of public display or collection, places of recreation, places of education, social service center establishments, and places of exercise or recreation. Title III also covers commercial facilities (such as warehouses, factories, and office buildings), private transportation services, and licensing and testing practices.

If you feel you or another person have been discriminated against by an entity covered by title III, send a letter to the Department of Justice, at the address below, including the following information:

- The name of the business, organization, or institution that you believe has discriminated;
- A description of the act or acts of discrimination, the date or dates of the discriminatory acts, and the name or names of the individuals who you believe discriminated; and
- Other information that you believe necessary to support your complaint. Please send copies of relevant documents. Do not send original documents. (Retain them.)

Sign and send the letter to the address below:

U.S. Department of Justice
950 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW
Civil Rights Division
Disability Rights - NYAVE
Washington, D.C. 20530

 

[cm8]

Thanks Sue! Here's the info I found. I would prefer to address the issue directly with Disney, and don't feel that I personally could file a complaint as I haven't had an issue myself (yet). But for anyone else who has.....

Title III prohibits discrimination based on disability in public accommodations. Private entities covered by title III include places of lodging, establishments serving food and drink, places of exhibition or entertainment, places of public gathering, sales or rental establishments, service establishments, stations used for specified public transportation, places of public display or collection, places of recreation, places of education, social service center establishments, and places of exercise or recreation. Title III also covers commercial facilities (such as warehouses, factories, and office buildings), private transportation services, and licensing and testing practices.

If you feel you or another person have been discriminated against by an entity covered by title III, send a letter to the Department of Justice, at the address below, including the following information:

- The name of the business, organization, or institution that you believe has discriminated;
- A description of the act or acts of discrimination, the date or dates of the discriminatory acts, and the name or names of the individuals who you believe discriminated; and
- Other information that you believe necessary to support your complaint. Please send copies of relevant documents. Do not send original documents. (Retain them.)

Sign and send the letter to the address below:

U.S. Department of Justice
950 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW
Civil Rights Division
Disability Rights - NYAVE
Washington, D.C. 20530

Thanks!!!

 

[EastYorkDisneyFan]

Title III prohibits discrimination based on disability in public accommodations. Private entities covered by title III include places of lodging, establishments serving food and drink, places of exhibition or entertainment, places of public gathering, sales or rental establishments, service establishments, stations used for specified public transportation, places of public display or collection, places of recreation, places of education, social service center establishments, and places of exercise or recreation. Title III also covers commercial facilities (such as warehouses, factories, and office buildings), private transportation services, and licensing and testing practices.

If you feel you or another person have been discriminated against by an entity covered by title III, send a letter to the Department of Justice, at the address below, including the following information:

- The name of the business, organization, or institution that you believe has discriminated;
- A description of the act or acts of discrimination, the date or dates of the discriminatory acts, and the name or names of the individuals who you believe discriminated; and
- Other information that you believe necessary to support your complaint. Please send copies of relevant documents. Do not send original documents. (Retain them.)

Sign and send the letter to the address below:

U.S. Department of Justice
950 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW
Civil Rights Division
Disability Rights - NYAVE
Washington, D.C. 20530

Here's the way I look at it, it seams to be a bit of a grey area as most of the time when they are double loading a bus the first bus is usually loading the Wheelchairs that are there. The second bus that pulls up is often directed by the bus supervisor that they have standing at the entrance to the bus loops to direct buses where to go. When this happens as I said before they do this as a crowd control measure as they don't want crowds getting unruly in the very tight areas that some of the bus stop queues are.

Like I said before it may seam unfair to the people in a wheelchair or ECV that got there just after the first bus pulled up and has closed it's rear doors, and you may have to wait for another one. Also from what I understand from reading the above info and what I have here from Disney Bus drivers, the loading of Wheelchairs and EVC first is there policy to accommodate them in a safe meaner. No where in the above does it say anything about priority boarding of buses for Wheelchairs or EVCs.

Just remember the first of the 5 keys of the Walt Disney Co. is Safety as the safety of everyone is more important then anyone else.

 

[mrsksomeday]

Like I said before it may seam unfair to the people in a wheelchair or ECV that got there just after the first bus pulled up and has closed it's rear doors, and you may have to wait for another one. Also from what I understand from reading the above info and what I have here from Disney Bus drivers, the loading of Wheelchairs and EVC first is there policy to accommodate them in a safe meaner. No where in the above does it say anything about priority boarding of buses for Wheelchairs or EVCs.

Just remember the first of the 5 keys of the Walt Disney Co. is Safety as the safety of everyone is more important then anyone else.

If my DBF and I go through the regular line, get to the front and I being an able bodied person can board while he has to watch 4 busses load and leave before he is able to board is ridiculous. That is NOT fair and equal access. This is discrimination and I will be very vocal about it. There was NOTHING wrong with the old way they did things. It is still that way at 3 of the other parks at WDW as far as I know.

Disney needs to explain to their guests that there are only 2 or 3 wheelchair/ecv accessible areas on each bus compared to many more able bodied sections. Why not put a little PSA on their channel when you turn the TV on in the rooms? If they can loop Stacy over and over again, they can add her saying a little something about the bus situation.

I am still mad that Bill Sears and Maroo had to sit there while many other people loaded and left. It is unacceptable.

 

[bookwormde]

The bypass if not able to accommodate came about as an acceptable alternative to having to greatly increase the number of HC spots. It became a known acceptable methodology to be in compliance, although it has never been formally added to the law or appendix (as far as I have been able to find). I have seen a copy of the ruling (I think it was actually a consent decree). It is not a requirement but an option to remain compliant when on a regular basis the infrastructure (busses) do to have adequate HC capacity.
Each bus is considered separately, so if the first bus cannot accommodate all then once they have loaded who they can accommodate they must bypass, If a second bus pull up and can accommodate the balance then the first bus may continue loading, If the second bus cannot accommodate all then they also must bypass.
This accommodating was intended to avoid making it impractical for the provider to not accommodate on an ongoing basis.

bookwormde

 

[peemagg]

Here is what I found on the Federal Transit Administration site under Title 49 section 37 subtitle A.


Sec. 37.5 Nondiscrimination.

(a) No entity shall discriminate against an individual with a
disability in connection with the provision of transportation service.
(b) Notwithstanding the provision of any special transportation
service to individuals with disabilities, an entity shall not, on the
basis of disability, deny to any individual with a disability the
opportunity to use the entity's transportation service for the general
public, if the individual is capable of using that service.
(c) An entity shall not require an individual with a disability to
use designated priority seats, if the individual does not choose to use
these seats.
(d) An entity shall not impose special charges, not authorized by
this part, on individuals with disabilities, including individuals who
use wheelchairs, for providing services required by this part or
otherwise necessary to accommodate them.
(e) An entity shall not require that an individual with disabilities
be accompanied by an attendant.
(f) Private entities that are primarily engaged in the business of
transporting people and whose operations affect commerce shall not
discriminate against any individual on the basis of disability in the
full and equal enjoyment of specified transportation services. This
obligation includes, with respect to the provision of transportation
services, compliance with the requirements of the rules of the
Department of Justice concerning eligibility criteria, making reasonable
modifications, providing auxiliary aids and services, and removing
barriers (28 CFR 36.301-36.306).
(g) An entity shall not refuse to serve an individual with a
disability or require anything contrary to this part because its
insurance company conditions coverage or rates on the absence of
individuals with disabilities or requirements contrary to this part.
(h) It is not discrimination under this part for an entity to refuse
to provide

[[Page 418]]

service to an individual with disabilities because that individual
engages in violent, seriously disruptive, or illegal conduct. However,
an entity shall not refuse to provide service to an individual with
disabilities solely because the individual's disability results in
appearance or involuntary behavior that may offend, annoy, or
inconvenience employees of the entity or other persons.

By them double loading buses they are in fact then breaking the law according to this, because they are not allowing those who are handicapped to use the services of that bus as they are entitled.

 

[lovetoscrap]

I have seen a copy of the ruling (I think it was actually a consent decree). It is not a requirement but an option to remain compliant when on a regular basis the infrastructure (busses) do to have adequate HC capacity.

bookwormde

Without having an actual copy of this it really is just hearsay and I know I am not comfortable asserting my perceived rights based on something someone said on the internet. I really would love to see this in writing within the text of law or a legal finding.

Here is what I found on the Federal Transit Administration site under Title 49 section 37 subtitle A.


Sec. 37.5 Nondiscrimination.

(a) No entity shall discriminate against an individual with a
disability in connection with the provision of transportation service.
(b) Notwithstanding the provision of any special transportation
service to individuals with disabilities, an entity shall not, on the
basis of disability, deny to any individual with a disability the
opportunity to use the entity's transportation service for the general
public, if the individual is capable of using that service.


By them double loading buses they are in fact then breaking the law according to this, because they are not allowing those who are handicapped to use the services of that bus as they are entitled.

I am not reading this the same way. Double loading does not "deny us the opportunity to use the entity's transportation service". We are fully allowed and accommodated on their transportation service (with a few exceptions), just not on that specific bus and there is a promise that another bus will be provided in a timely manner.

I did some researching on this yesterday and found several legal cases against city transportation systems that were not providing equal services. In those cases they specifically allow that buses that do not have a working lift may continue to be in service (for 3 days) and may tell a hc user they will have to wait for another bus. In these a bus must be provided within 30 minutes, or a private ride within an hour. This is certainly in conflict with the idea that if the bus can not load a wheelchair then no one else may be loaded. I guess I don't see much difference between the bus double loading and a bus being in service that has an inoperable lift. Both are being sent into service specifically knowing that they will not be able to load any wheelchairs and that another bus will have to be available, which Disney does.

I am not saying that any of this is fair, I just don't want arguments made based on incorrect information, this weakens the ability for us to get changes made. My main complaint with Disney buses isn't the loading at the end of the night, it is trying to get on a bus at a resort that is part of multiple stops. We like to stay at All Star Movies and we now just drive. I know that there is no way I am getting on to a bus in the mornings.

 

[kathyk2]

I think if a lift doesn't work when a driver starts his day the bus is supposed to be pulled out of service. If a lift breaks down during the day alternate transportation should be provivided. I would still document every time every time you have to wait longer than able bodied passengers. I belong to a committee trying to improve accessable transportation in my hometown. Disabled passengers used to have similar complaints about not being able to use the fixed route buses. When mangement received enough complaints the problems disappeared.

 

[EastYorkDisneyFan]

Just keep in mind Disney often has more people waiting at a bus stop at certain times the a city transportation company does. I think it may make more sense to look at the bus stops at the parks the same way you would a subway train or even the monorail because of the large amount of people being moved. If your in a Wheelchair or ECV waiting for a subway and the platform is crowded and you can't get on because it is full with people standing is it the subway system "breaking the law" because you can't board?

 

[maroo]

I just want to say that I do have confidence that Disney will do evaluations on this...

I got a survey and this was part of what they were asking about...so it seems like they are at least listening.

I have such a hard time giving Disney a hard time for this, because on so many other things they are INCREDIBLE and go way above and beyond what would be required of them to allow those who have disabilities of all kinds to enjoy the parks.

I think the long waits will be rare...and don't want someone reading this really going out of their way to avoid the bus altogether because they are afraid of the wait. For the most part - especially in the middle of the day - the bus will be just like it has always been for us.

But I think those that are going should document - well - what happens, time of day, where it happened and we should call as soon as it happens and let them know the outcome. And what difference it made in our vacation experience. Hopefully they won't do the construction on the rest of the queues until they see how this is really going to work.

I do think they are trying to be fair...It just is not working in all cases - as we see here for sure.

 

[SueM in MN]

So really the idea that a bus must leave everyone behind if the wc can't be loaded is/was only a Disney policy and is NOT an ADA requirement.

I think this is a very important distinction because it seems that it gets stated here as an ADA law when it is mentioned, and so it really is an important thing to realize that we don't have a leg to stand on (or a wheel to sit on!) legally as far as this. And without a reference to it in writing it really is an idea that should be set aside in these discussions and just focus on how access can be fair. Otherwise we, as a group, start to look bad if we try to force the issue using this unproven statement as the basis of the argument.

No, it was not just Disney policy.
What I read sounded like the same as what bookwormed was talking about.
It was a settlement made as a complaint against the polices and practices of a bus company (I don’t remember who it was against). Those settlements become law that applies to other companies doing similar things.

So, it’s not in the ADA, but would still apply to companies in similar situations. For example, someone made a complaint or suit against a theater for not having accessible seating except in the very first row. That led to a ruling that theaters (not just the one in the suit) have to provide accessible seating with similar sightlines to the sightlines of guests who are not using wheelchairs/ECVs.

Just keep in mind Disney often has more people waiting at a bus stop at certain times the a city transportation company does. I think it may make more sense to look at the bus stops at the parks the same way you would a subway train or even the monorail because of the large amount of people being moved. If your in a Wheelchair or ECV waiting for a subway and the platform is crowded and you can't get on because it is full with people standing is it the subway system "breaking the law" because you can't board?

I don’t think that is a comparable situation because riders on the subway go where ever they fit. So, it doesn’t matter when someone with a wheelchair boards. If there is space for them to board, there is not a specific spot where they are required to park.

Bus: maximum of 2-3 specific spots per bus where someone using a wheelchair/ECV can ride on the bus. Accessible loading is thru the back door (city buses are mostly thru the front door). The guest using a wheelchair must be able to have enough room to get onto the bus, get to the wheelchair spot and have enough room for the driver to tie down the wheelchair.

WDW monorail: cars are accessible and the person with a wheelchair or ECV could park in any monorail car, but since there is quite a bump to get over to get in and out of the monorail car, the stations are set up so that guests using wheelchairs/ECVs are directed to a specific monorail car. The portable ramp is stored right by that car. After loading guests waiting with wheelchair/ECVs, CMs fill that car last so that any more people using ECVs and wheelchairs have an equal chance to get a monorail spot compared to people walking up.
Orlando Airport trams: entry is level to the floor and there is no special treatment for anyone. Guests with wheelchairs/ECVs can ride where ever there is room to park and have an equal chance to get on compared to everyone else. So it doesn’t matter when they board.

Subway: From what I have seen, most are similar to the Orlando Airport Trams with no specific spot where a person using a wheelchair must be located inside the train in order to ride. Only certain subway stations as accessible (see this from the MTA - New York as an example). Once riders get to the subway train waiting area, they are on the same basis as other riders - no gap to get on and they can ride anywhere there is enough space to park the wheelchair.