*~* Muggles, Welcome to the Burrow! *~*

[HomeSweetDisney]

Princeton, as in not that far from where I live, Princeton!?!?!? OH-MY-GOSH!!!

Shelby

That would be the one! Maybe you'll see him around and get to ask him on a date

 

[HomeSweetDisney]

And I thought you guys may appreciate these:

 

[CobraBubbles]

Okay, OT.

This is my crackpot theory of the day...please shoot it down.

I do not need to be encouraged on my crackpot theories..ha ha. So tell me why it won't work. I've never heard this theory before...just thought it up today.

Okay, so we know there's SOMETHING with Petunia...but we don't know what...right? And at one point she mentions that Lily brought home "That HORRID boy" or something to that effect...we assume it's James...but she never says James...it could be anyone.

Anyhooo. So, my crackpot theory du jour is that Petunia had a fling with some wizarding boy, and had an illigitamate child - Pansy Parkinson...ha ha. Okay, it's just the flower thing...Petunia, Lily, and Pansy...and it got me thinking...random flower stuff. I can't remember much or anything about Pansy's background or family though..so...and I know it's quite out in left field.

But we must do SOMETHING with our brains while waiting for book 7.

 

[HomeSweetDisney]

Okay, OT.

This is my crackpot theory of the day...please shoot it down.

I do not need to be encouraged on my crackpot theories..ha ha. So tell me why it won't work. I've never heard this theory before...just thought it up today.

Okay, so we know there's SOMETHING with Petunia...but we don't know what...right? And at one point she mentions that Lily brought home "That HORRID boy" or something to that effect...we assume it's James...but she never says James...it could be anyone.

Anyhooo. So, my crackpot theory du jour is that Petunia had a fling with some wizarding boy, and had an illigitamate child - Pansy Parkinson...ha ha. Okay, it's just the flower thing...Petunia, Lily, and Pansy...and it got me thinking...random flower stuff. I can't remember much or anything about Pansy's background or family though..so...and I know it's quite out in left field.

But we must do SOMETHING with our brains while waiting for book 7.

I'm not going to shoot down your theory because at this point, I'm not counting anything out! Very perceptive of you to notice the flower theme though. I have a feeling that isn't what really happened...but you never know. It just doesn't seem to fit JKR's style. But you're right that we don't know anything about Pansy. Except that her family supports Voldemort. So....yeah. That's all I've got

 

[UnderTheMistletoe]

Wonder if that HORRID boy was Snape? Lupin?

ETA: No one would have called Sirius horrid...

 

[N&B'smom]

That would be the one! Maybe you'll see him around and get to ask him on a date

Ohhhh...good idea. Do you think my hubby would mind????

Shelby

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Well, I think that is a bit of a thought provoking question- would the person who killed LV with an AK be sent to Azkaban?

Would anyone really question Harry if he did?

There are exceptions to everything. Harry didn't get expelled from Hogwarts even though he blew up Aunt Marge; Fudge pardoned him. Maybe in the wizarding world the person who kills V would get a free pass.

The AK being unforgivable could be a social commentary on the death penalty. Perhaps JKR is presenting the idea that killing to avenge killing is never okay. (Please, no death penalty debates-- I'm just bringing up an theory.) Also, there may be other ways of taking somebody's life. The dementors have proved that the loss of a soul is tantamount to death. With V's horcruxes destroyed, his soul would cease to exist.

More over, Fawkes has played a prominent role throughout the books. If he hadn't been there, Harry would have died becuase of the Basilisk (makes me wonder why Fawkes couldn't have cried and save DD's hand ). We know that the tail feathers in both wands were from Fawke's tail.

I still think there is something that is going to happen with Fawkes. And, although Ollivander has gone into hiding, I doubt it is to make LV a new wand. If he is under his own freewill (which he may not be), I don't see him betraying the wizarding world to do so. Except that we do have that mysteriously mentioned wand on the purple, dusty pillow...

Fawkes (and the phoenix archetype) has played a huge role. Is the name Fawkes significant? Guy Fawkes is significant in British history.

Also, the idea of a phoenix is rebirth and rising from the ashes. Will there be a literal rebirth in a character dying and coming back to life? (JKR has already said DD will not be coming back to life) Perhaps a metaphorical rebirth of the wizarding world? I think fire will be involved in some way; Fawke's coloring is reminicent of fire, he flashes fire when he apperates, fire causes ash...

Regarding phoenix tears and DD's hand: What if his hand was dead before Fawkes could get to it? I thought F's tears could only heal wounds, not bring life to a dead body.

Somewhat related... What spirits do you think we will see? I dont' think we've seen the last of DD or Sirius. We know they are not ghosts but I don't think they are fully gone.

Where do you think the final duel will take place?

Hmmm....Godric's Hollow is the first thing that springs to mind. It is where Harry entered the picture and would be a good place to end it all. Also works well with the final title.

One more thing... anyone else think there's something up with Trevor?!

Possibly! I didn't see the Scabbers/Wormtail twist coming.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Okay, OT.


Anyhooo. So, my crackpot theory du jour is that Petunia had a fling with some wizarding boy, and had an illigitamate child - Pansy Parkinson...ha ha. Okay, it's just the flower thing...Petunia, Lily, and Pansy...and it got me thinking...random flower stuff. I can't remember much or anything about Pansy's background or family though..so...and I know it's quite out in left field.

But we must do SOMETHING with our brains while waiting for book 7.

That is totally Harry Potter by way of Passions or another soap opera. I love it!

You do bring up a good point. There are lots of flower names; Petunia, Pansy, Lily, Lavendar, etc... I wonder if this is a style choice or something bigger.

 

[CobraBubbles]

Wonder if that HORRID boy was Snape? Lupin?

ETA: No one would have called Sirius horrid...

This has nothing to do with my crackpot theory, but I've always wondered if she was referring to Snape...who would seem rather horrid. I think Lily and Snape had to at least know each other, because of Snape's worst memory, and that fact that Lily was extremely good at potions.

Slughorn mistakenly thought Harry was good at potions thanks to the HBP, did anyone else get some tutoring???

 

[va32h]

Okay, OT.

This is my crackpot theory of the day...please shoot it down.

I do not need to be encouraged on my crackpot theories..ha ha. So tell me why it won't work. I've never heard this theory before...just thought it up today.

Okay, so we know there's SOMETHING with Petunia...but we don't know what...right? And at one point she mentions that Lily brought home "That HORRID boy" or something to that effect...we assume it's James...but she never says James...it could be anyone.

Anyhooo. So, my crackpot theory du jour is that Petunia had a fling with some wizarding boy, and had an illigitamate child - Pansy Parkinson...ha ha. Okay, it's just the flower thing...Petunia, Lily, and Pansy...and it got me thinking...random flower stuff. I can't remember much or anything about Pansy's background or family though..so...and I know it's quite out in left field.

But we must do SOMETHING with our brains while waiting for book 7.

Well you did ask...

The main reason this won't work is that JKR has said there are certain places she just won't go in the stories - teen pregnancies and illegitimate children are two of the places she won't go.

I think "That awful boy" just has to be James. He's the only person who would have any reason to be visiting Lily at her home. I know there are a lot of theories that Snape and Lily were friends, or that he loved her, but there's really not a shred of evidence in the books that Snape ever met Petunia.

The idea that Snape and Lily were friends seems to have come from the fact that they were both apparently good at Potions. But this doesn't mean they would be friendly - it could just as easily make them rivals. And we aren't even really sure that Lily is that good at potions. Slughorn says she was, but Slughorn is trying to flatter Harry and make friends with The Chosen One, so we can't entirely trust what he says.

If "that awful boy" were anyone but James, Petunia would have said "an awful boy". "That" in this context implies a boy she has mentioned before. The only wizard boy Petunia has ever made reference to knowing is James.

When my daughter and I are discussing theories, our "rule" is that a workable theory should have only one "what if". If we have to speculate about a series of things in order to make the theory work, then it isn't very likely.

But I will agree that there is a definite flower connection between the sisters.

When Dumbledore arrives at the beginning of HBP to collect Harry from Privet Drive, he tells her that her agapanthus have flourished since his last visit. Agapanthus is an African Lily.

Petunia abandoned her sister, but has nourished and tended her namesake flower.... my little imaginary plot there has Petunia planting the flowers as a way of remembering her sister in a way that Vernon would never recognize.

 

[CobraBubbles]

Well you did ask...

The main reason this won't work is that JKR has said there are certain places she just won't go in the stories - teen pregnancies and illegitimate children are two of the places she won't go.

Well, I did say it was a crackpot theory I didn't really expect it to be in book 7.

I think "That awful boy" just has to be James. He's the only person who would have any reason to be visiting Lily at her home. I know there are a lot of theories that Snape and Lily were friends, or that he loved her, but there's really not a shred of evidence in the books that Snape ever met Petunia.

You are probably right about 'That awful boy' being James...just because...well, it probably was James. But if someone were particularly awful, it would make sense to distinguish them as 'THAT awful boy...' whether it was James or not...she could just be recalling a memory.

There isn't any evidence that she was friends with Snape, but there are some hints. And he did do something that made DD trust him...I'm not sure what, but it probably has something to do with the Potters...anyway, Lily and Snape may not have been friends, but he might have liked/respected her. But definitely Slughorn is a clue himself. You can't trust him...clearly he thinks Harry is good at potions...but Harry showed himself good at potions so he his flattery was not completely off. He compared Harry to his mother, could just have easily said father..etc. I bet Lily was good at potions.

Petunia abandoned her sister, but has nourished and tended her namesake flower.... my little imaginary plot there has Petunia planting the flowers as a way of remembering her sister in a way that Vernon would never recognize.

Aww, that's a nice thought

 

[AuroraBorealis]

There isn't any evidence that she was friends with Snape, but there are some hints. And he did do something that made DD trust him...I'm not sure what, but it probably has something to do with the Potters...anyway, Lily and Snape may not have been friends, but he might have liked/respected her.

Lily rescued Snape from James' bullying as seen by Harry in OOtP. Snape then calls her a Mudblood to thank her for her help. Lily is shocked by this--and calls him a name back. Her reaction seems to suggest she and Snape were cordial at the very least.

So, Snape's worst memory: That scene is a pretty bad; the humiliation in front of classmates (and possibly a girl he admired?) and then having Harry see it would definitely qualify as a bad memory. Or it could have been Harry assuming it was Snape's worst memory.

I recently noticed that Snape doesn't insult Lily like he insults James throughout the books. Could it be possible that his worst memory is how he treated Lily when she tried to be a friend? Clearly, Snape was unpopular. Maybe he regrets not pursuing friendship.

The idea that Snape and Lily were friends seems to have come from the fact that they were both apparently good at Potions. But this doesn't mean they would be friendly - it could just as easily make them rivals. And we aren't even really sure that Lily is that good at potions. Slughorn says she was, but Slughorn is trying to flatter Harry and make friends with The Chosen One, so we can't entirely trust what he says.

They could easily be rivals. But maybe Lily was good at potions because she had a relationship with Snape. Snape is, after all, the Half-Blood Prince. He could have helped her in her studies much like Harry uses his notes years later. Lily wasn't perfect, she could have taken credit for her talent without acknowledging Snape's help. This was the first we heard of her potions talent although we do know (via Ollivander) she had a wand good for charms. We also know she was a very talented witch so being good at potions (and Slughorn's hyperbole later) isn't that far out of the question.

We seen to know a lot about Lily from Slughorn but why doesn't Slughorn say much about James and any talent he had?


Via Snape's Worst Memory Harry learns his father really was arrogant. I feel this is very important for him. I also like that he was able to see his mother attempt to be kind to Snape. Even though she chose to insult him back, she at least called James out for they way he treated Snape.

The desire Snape has for revenge and the predisposition to hate Harry verses the connection Snape has to James for saving his life is interesting. I think this explains a lot about why Snape is mean to Harry but has, on several occasions, helped protect him (or at least not kill him at an opportune time.) Perhaps Snape has some lingering respect for Lily as well. He at least doesn't seem to hate her as much as he hates James.

I really, really want to know DD's ironclad reason for trusting Snape! We know DD is not perfect; he has been wrong and made some bad decisions. How can we know for sure his trust in Snape is infallible?

 

[U2_rocks!]

You do bring up a good point. There are lots of flower names; Petunia, Pansy, Lily, Lavendar, etc... I wonder if this is a style choice or something bigger.

I would suspect a style choice - I think it is fairly popular for the English to name children after flowers. Certainly I have known of a fair number of English ladies with flower names.

 

[SueM in MN]

I really, really want to know DD's ironclad reason for trusting Snape! We know DD is not perfect; he has been wrong and made some bad decisions. How can we know for sure his trust in Snape is infallible?

I had posted earlier what I think the ironclad reason was.

I think when Snape heard the prophesy and went to LV with it, he had no idea who the prophesy referred to or what the consequences of taking the news to LV would be. He had been sent by LV to try to get a job at Hogwarts (maybe to try to get ahold of some particular item there to make a Horcux, maybe to put one there??). Anyway, Snape happened to be at the right place at the right time to hear part of the prophesy. At that time, he was still a Death Eater and he made the easy choice that would make him useful/bring him glory with LV.

We know from the books that James had saved Snape from going thru the whomping willow and coming face to face with Lupin as a werewolf. That meant a bond formed between the 2 of them like the bond that now exits between Harry and Peter Pettigrew. Sirius said in the books that no one knew about James saving Snape except those involved.

I think that when Snape found out that LV killed James and Lilly (and almost killed Harry), he was truely horrified and thought of the consequences of his actions for the first time. His actions had caused the death of Lily, who he may have liked and admired (or at least, she was one of the few people who was at all kind to him). His actions also caused the death of James, who he had a magical bond to protect. We do know some things about that type of magical bond from what DD told Harry after Harry saved Peter. What we do kn ow is that it is a very old and powerful type of magic.

I think that Snape went to DD after this admitted everything (including the fact that James had saved him in the past), and said how sorry he was for having helped LV.

DD did share part of that reason with Harry - not the exact words, but the gist of it "Snape said he was sorry for your parent's death and his part in it and I believed him."
DD would have had no reason to share the part about Snape having been saved by James with anyone. It was an 'embarrasing' incident that there would be no reason for him to share with the other members of the order. DD doesn't know that Sirius mentioned it to Harry as far as we know. DD would have no reason to mention the incident to Harry though because he doesn't need to know it and it only adds negative things to his knowledge of his father.

It's been said over and over how Harry looks just like his father and has his mother's eyes. If Snape is truely sorry for what he did that caused their deaths, every time he sees Harry, he sees Lily's eyes looking at him from James' body. He takes that out on Harry.

I think at some point in the next book, Harry will put 2 and 2 together and understand that Snape (who he hates) had the same type of bond with James (who Snape hated) as Harry has with Peter Pettigrew (who Harry hates because of his role in Harry's parent's death and LV's new rise to power).

I think this all makes sense because it takes all things we know from different parts of the books and puts them together in a way that makes sense.

 

[SueM in MN]

When Dumbledore arrives at the beginning of HBP to collect Harry from Privet Drive, he tells her that her agapanthus have flourished since his last visit. Agapanthus is an African Lily.

Petunia abandoned her sister, but has nourished and tended her namesake flower.... my little imaginary plot there has Petunia planting the flowers as a way of remembering her sister in a way that Vernon would never recognize.

I always meant to look that flower up because I thought it would be important. Thanks for the information.

I also think Petunia's poor treatment of Harry might be connected with him looking just like his father ('that horrid boy').

The other thing we have to think about is that what we know about Petunia's thoughts of Lily are what she said after Lilly died (basically that she was jealous of the special treatment Lily got from being a 'freak' and going to that 'freak school'). We DON'T know how she felt at the time. Are the things she says now about Lily are colored by her knowledge that being a witch and being married to 'that horrid boy' were directly responsible for her death?

 

[CobraBubbles]

They could easily be rivals. But maybe Lily was good at potions because she had a relationship with Snape. Snape is, after all, the Half-Blood Prince. He could have helped her in her studies much like Harry uses his notes years later. Lily wasn't perfect, she could have taken credit for her talent without acknowledging Snape's help. This was the first we heard of her potions talent although we do know (via Ollivander) she had a wand good for charms. We also know she was a very talented witch so being good at potions (and Slughorn's hyperbole later) isn't that far out of the question.

I definitely think that Slughorn was a huge clue. He raved about Harry's skills, although he had none, and kept saying that he was just like his mother. It brings a parallel to the mind, at the very least. Harry was really good at potions (but not really), maybe Lily wasn't that good at potions either without some help that Slughorn never knew about.

Via Snape's Worst Memory Harry learns his father really was arrogant. I feel this is very important for him. I also like that he was able to see his mother attempt to be kind to Snape. Even though she chose to insult him back, she at least called James out for they way he treated Snape.

That wasn't in there for no reason at all. Lily tried to help. Snape's reaction seemed just lashing out, out of sheer embarassment. Sometimes people who are ridiculed a lot end up taking it out on people who try to help them, because they can't really distinguish friends from enemies anymore. Clearly he had a horrible time at school. Perhaps the weight of this memory weighs so heavily (as his worst) because perhaps it was a turning point in his and Lily's relationship (using that word loosely). Maybe they were acquaintance/friends but that scene ruined anything that could have been. Whatever the repercussions to that scene were (defriending Lily, wanting revenge on James or Sirius, killing his morale, etc) they probably greatly affect his decision to become a DE. So, that's probably why it is his worst memory.

The desire Snape has for revenge and the predisposition to hate Harry verses the connection Snape has to James for saving his life is interesting. I think this explains a lot about why Snape is mean to Harry but has, on several occasions, helped protect him (or at least not kill him at an opportune time.) Perhaps Snape has some lingering respect for Lily as well. He at least doesn't seem to hate her as much as he hates James.

It never says that Snape does hate Lily, but definitely that he hates James. If he did like/respect Lily, how horrible for him that she ended up with James.

I really, really want to know DD's ironclad reason for trusting Snape! We know DD is not perfect; he has been wrong and made some bad decisions. How can we know for sure his trust in Snape is infallible?

I don't think DD is wrong on this one. I can't wait to find out what his ironclad reason is, but I'm sure it has to do with James and Lily. When he told the prophesy to Voldemort he ensured James and Lily's death, but he didn't KNOW that when he told. He felt really bad when he found out it was them. Because of James? I doubt it, but maybe partly. Was it just an act? That's what Harry thinks, and Harry is ALWAYS wrong. Or was it because of Lily? In any case, shortly after Snape was working for DD, so something happened in that short time.


I can't wait to find out!

 

[Daxx]

Do you think Snape loved Lilly, longed for her from far (perhaps unbeknownst to her) and had hopes/dreams/desires of marrying Lilly and the fact that Lilly married James, the person that Snape loathed most, only adds fuel to his fire towards Harry?

For some reason, I can picture Snape skulking around outside the church as Lilly and James tied the knot and watched them from a tree, feeling v. sorry for himself that he didn't get "his girl".

ETA -- do you think Snape was hoping to, one day, ask James for a huge favor for saving James's life and never got the chance and now is mad that he never got to do that and takes it out on Harry?

 

[va32h]

I also think Petunia's poor treatment of Harry might be connected with him looking just like his father ('that horrid boy').

The other thing we have to think about is that what we know about Petunia's thoughts of Lily are what she said after Lilly died (basically that she was jealous of the special treatment Lily got from being a 'freak' and going to that 'freak school'). We DON'T know how she felt at the time. Are the things she says now about Lily are colored by her knowledge that being a witch and being married to 'that horrid boy' were directly responsible for her death?

*Smacks self on head*

I can't believe I never thought of that! Of course! I never even thought about Petunia associating Harry with James.

As mean and spiteful as Petunia is, somewhere deep down, maybe very very very deep down, I think she does love and mourn her sister. Just the way she acted when Dumbledore said Harry would be of age at 17, not 18. She cares, but decades of Vernon, and her desperate need to conform, have just pushed it too far down.

I've never thought that Snape loved Lily because I just couldn't see him loving anybody. Snape seems to have contempt for any kind of emotion. I also read a JKR interview where she expressed a great deal of surprise that anyone would see Snape as a romantic hero - she thought they were seeing Snape as Alan Rickman more than as Snape, and something to the effect of "who would want to be loved by Snape."

But Snape sure is carrying around a guilty conscience about something. I would love to see the other memories that Snape removed from his head before those Occlumency lessons!

Maybe he still feels guilty about killing James and Lily, even if he did not particularly love her. It's still a big psychological step to go from hating someone to wanting them dead. Look at Draco in HBP. All his life he's talked the DE talk, but when given the task to actually murder someone, even someone he doesn't like, he can't bring himself to do it.

If I were being completely wild with my theorizing, I might guess that Snape was actually at Godric's Hollow with Voldemort and was genuinely horrified at watching two murders and an attempted murder take place. After all, someone told Dumbledore what happened at GH....

 

[CobraBubbles]

*Smacks self on head*

I can't believe I never thought of that! Of course! I never even thought about Petunia associating Harry with James.

As mean and spiteful as Petunia is, somewhere deep down, maybe very very very deep down, I think she does love and mourn her sister. Just the way she acted when Dumbledore said Harry would be of age at 17, not 18. She cares, but decades of Vernon, and her desperate need to conform, have just pushed it too far down.

I agree. I think that Petunia isn't all bad, and that she mourns here sister.

I've never thought that Snape loved Lily because I just couldn't see him loving anybody. Snape seems to have contempt for any kind of emotion. I also read a JKR interview where she expressed a great deal of surprise that anyone would see Snape as a romantic hero - she thought they were seeing Snape as Alan Rickman more than as Snape, and something to the effect of "who would want to be loved by Snape."

I read that interview, too. I felt her answer was more of a coy way NOT to give a real answer. Irrelevant at that...a lot of people are loved by people who they could care less about. You don't really choose who falls in love with you.

But Snape sure is carrying around a guilty conscience about something. I would love to see the other memories that Snape removed from his head before those Occlumency lessons!

I was thinking about that this morning. I could read a whole book of just memories from Snape's pensieve.

If I were being completely wild with my theorizing, I might guess that Snape was actually at Godric's Hollow with Voldemort and was genuinely horrified at watching two murders and an attempted murder take place. After all, someone told Dumbledore what happened at GH....

I suspect that Snape may have been at Godric's Hollow...or someone else was, because of an answer JKR gave in an interview. She circumvented the question of if anyone else was there or not. Maybe someone knows the exact answer...

 

[N&B'smom]

I also have always thought of Snape having an interest in Lily and being totally bitter about her ending up with James. Obviously a lot of people on this board can picture him in a romantic light since they all think he's sexy. I am really looking forward to getting some answers in this last book. I think I'm most interested to find out once and for all who had Snape's loyalty.

I'm re-reading the HBP right now because I read it so long ago and I just can't remember all the details.

I also believe that Petunia has some softness in her heart for her sister, I think it's a situation of jealousy and perhaps just not understanding since she herself had no magical powers. Those two things caused a rift between her and Lily, obviously she had a problem with James as well.

Shelby