Moveon.org Petraeus ad ------

The rest did not even know John Kerry. And that is the truth.

No, that's not what Snopes says. It says of the quotes that only one of those men served under Kerry's command. It doesn't say that the rest did not even know him. It says that how well they knew him is questionable, but then goes on to give only one example, that of Rear Admiral Hoffman.



If you read a little bit further on.....of the med who were quoted as berating Kerry....only ONE served with him.

Of the ones complimenting Kerry....all of them worked with Kerry .

For the purposes of debating the Swiftboat Ads, I don't think this particular Snopes article is very on-point. The quotes they are referencing, except for one, are references to the betrayal these men felt over Kerry's post-war activities, not his conduct while in Vietnam. Kerry's statements and actions after the war are a matter of public record, and fact, not something that's debatable. These men are expressing their opinion of those actions, not his actions in combat.
 
Just lke the Swift Boat ads.

The Swift Boat adds were created by men who served with Kerry or saw first hand what Kerry did and didn't do. Big difference. What has George Soros seen and done?
 
No, that's not what Snopes says. It says of the quotes that only one of those men served under Kerry's command. It doesn't say that the rest did not even know him. It says that how well they knew him is questionable, but then goes on to give only one example, that of Rear Admiral Hoffman.


Okay, I'll bite. Even if they "knew" him, they did not serve with him or be able to comment on his actions during any swiftboat action, because they were not there with him on board to observe a darn thing. The ads, if I remember correctly, infered that they served with him..... They were swiftboaters, they did indeed serve, but not with him. Big difference.
 
I am sorry, but they certainly gave the appearance (when the ads were aired) that they served with him. Saying that they are swift boat veterans and airing specific crap about Kerry certainly gives tha impression. And believe me, I am no fan of Kerry.
 

The Swift Boat adds were created by men who served with Kerry or saw first hand what Kerry did and didn't do. Big difference. What has George Soros seen and done?


As I said to Bet, you're playing semantics.
 
PetraeusNYTad.jpg


I hear alot of upset folks out there over the "Betrayus" ad in the New Yoork TImes.

Fine. I don't like this kind of crap either.It is intentionally devisive and does not encourage constructive dialog. Thankfully we do have our Democratic leadership coming out against it.

?

But none of the Democratic presidential candidates, including the senior senator from my own state of Ct., Chris Dodd.
 
Okay, I'll bite. Even if they "knew" him, they did not serve with him or be able to comment on his actions during any swiftboat action, because they were not there with him on board to observe a darn thing. The ads, if I remember correctly, infered that they served with him..... They were swiftboaters, they did indeed serve, but not with him. Big difference.

Interesting how people are somehow forgetting exactly what those ads tried to imply. :sad2:
 
Okay, I'll bite. Even if they "knew" him, they did not serve with him or be able to comment on his actions during any swiftboat action, because they were not there with him on board to observe a darn thing. The ads, if I remember correctly, infered that they served with him..... They were swiftboaters, they did indeed serve, but not with him. Big difference.


Go back and read the quotes on the Snopes page. They are referring to his actions after Vietnam, which are not in dispute.
 
Republican-funded Group Attacks Kerry's War Record
August 6, 2004
Updated: August 22, 2004
Ad features vets who claim Kerry "lied" to get Vietnam medals. But other witnesses disagree -- and so do Navy records.

Summary
A group funded by the biggest Republican campaign donor in Texas began running an attack ad Aug. 5 in which former Swift Boat veterans claim Kerry lied to get one of his two decorations for bravery and two of his three purple hearts.

But the veterans who accuse Kerry are contradicted by Kerry's former crewmen, and by Navy records.

One of the accusers says he was on another boat "a few yards" away during the incident which won Kerry the Bronze Star, but the former Army lieutenant whom Kerry plucked from the water that day backs Kerry's account. In an Aug. 10 opinion piece in the conservative Wall Street Journal, Rassmann (a Republican himself) wrote that the ad was "launched by people without decency" who are "lying" and "should hang their heads in shame."

And on Aug. 19, Navy records came to light also contradicting the accusers. One of the veterans who says Kerry wasn't under fire was himself awarded a Bronze Star for aiding others "in the face of enemy fire" during the same incident.

Analysis
"Swift Boat Veterans for Truth" is a group formed March 23 after Kerry wrapped up the Democratic nomination. It held a news conference May 4 denigrating Kerry's military record and his later anti-war pronouncements during the 1970's. The group began running an attack ad Aug. 5 in which 13 veterans variously say Kerry is "not being honest" and "is lying about his record."

Read the rest at http://www.factcheck.org/article231.html
 
Go back and read the quotes on the Snopes page. They are referring to his actions after Vietnam, which are not in dispute.


Did the swiftboat ads themselves concentrate on his post war activities?
 
EVERYONE heard what he had to say about the men that served in Viet Nam. That trumps it all as far as I am concerned....that and his "three purple hearts and your out", trick.
 
EVERYONE heard what he had to say about the men that served in Viet Nam. That trumps it all as far as I am concerned....that and his "three purple hearts and your out", trick.


The Swiftboat ads were dirty politics to the eighth degree. Just like Willie Horton.
 
EVERYONE heard what he had to say about the men that served in Viet Nam. That trumps it all as far as I am concerned....that and his "three purple hearts and your out", trick.

What exactly did he say Dawn that trumps everything else he'd done. Sources too please.
 
When all else fails, deflect.

It's pretty damn simple. It's either wrong to question military service or it's not. This Petraeus is off limits, but it was OK for Kerry, stuff is the biggest load of crap I've read in some time.
 
The swift boat ads were tacky. This ad is tacky. It rubs both ways.....


Just like Willie Horton.


Just an FYI, the Willie Horton issue first arose during the Democratic Primaries against Dukakis, not by the Republicans..............
 
Just an FYI, the Willie Horton issue first arose during the Democratic Primaries against Dukakis, not by the Republicans..............


The RNC brought it to, shall we say, a new level. Pandering to fear is never right, no matter who does it.
 
What exactly did he say Dawn that trumps everything else he'd done. Sources too please.

Well documented and easy to find. This is just one of many sources;

s spokesman for Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW), Kerry never once protested the Hanoi communist's war crimes although he knew of them at the time. However, he did march under the Vietnamese communists banner with Jane Fonda protesting the U.S. involvement in the war, and praising Ho Chi Minh.

Kerry also testified the Senate Foreign Relations Committee in 1971 that American servicemen in Vietnam committed atrocities, reminiscent of Genghis Khan, and that these acts were "not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command calling all Vietnam Veterans, those who were killed, and those still fighting in Vietnam war criminals.

On April 18, 1971, Kerry appeared on NBC's "Meet the Press" stating "Yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities..." Whether this was a mea culpa by Kerry, only he knows; however, his testimony was largely based on fabrications by purported Vietnam combat veterans presented at the Jane Fonda-funded Winter Soldier Investigation.

A great share of these purported combat veterans were phonies and proven to have never been in the military, or if so, never having served in Vietnam, or if having served in Vietnam had never seen combat.

Kerry's fabrications gave aid-and comfort to the enemy, and were used by the North Vietnamese communists as the basis to torture and demoralize American POWs.

While I was a POW in Hanoi, we were lectured repeatedly by the communist political officers regarding John Kerry's testimony before congress in which he accused us of being "war criminals."

We were told that as such, we were going to be tried in Nuremberg-like war crimes trials and "we would be held forever." Many others were tortured as a result of Kerry's testimony.

As a Senator, Kerry has fought harder for the Vietnamese communists than he ever did against them during his four months as a Swift Boat commander. Kerry's picture hangs in the Vietnamese communist's war museum in Ho Chi Minh City (formerly Saigon), in which he is immortalized in tribute to aiding the communists in winning the war.

In 2001, Kerry single-handed prevented the Vietnam Human Rights Act from going to the floor of the Senate for a democratic up or down vote after passing the House 410-1.

On June 21, Vietnamese News Agency (the mouthpiece for Hanoi's communist party) cited presidential candidate John Kerry's 1971 fabricated testimony as proof that the U.S. committed war crimes in the conduct of the Vietnam War and compared this to the US treatment of prisoners at the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq.

Ironically, in the same article, the Vietnamese communists had the audacity to claim, "they treated captured U.S. troops humanely" during the Vietnam War.

If Senator Biden is so concerned over adhering to the Geneva Conventions on Prisoners, why then hasn't he called for war crimes trials for the North Vietnamese communist criminals instead of continually rewarding Hanoi with taxpayers dollars?


END


Michael Benge spent 11 years in Viet Nam, over five years as a Prisoner of War-1968-73. While serving as a civilian Foreign Service Officer, he was captured in South Viet Nam by the North Vietnamese and held in numerous camps in South Viet Nam, Cambodia, Laos, and North Viet Nam. He spent 27 months in solitary confinement and one year in a "black box." For efforts in rescuing several Americans prior to capture, he received the State Department's highest award for heroism and a second one for valor.
 
When all else fails, deflect.

It's pretty damn simple. It's either wrong to question military service or it's not. This Petraeus is off limits, but it was OK for Kerry, stuff is the biggest load of crap I've read in some time.

Sometimes a good pair of hip waders comes in handy around here.
 
What I don't understand is all this energy expended towards Bush.

He is a non issue. He can't run anymore. He will be gone.

If this was his first term I can see people attacking him.


We got a war to win, so let's use all our energy to win it.
 


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