Monorail automation process to begin--huh?

[doconeill]

It has been reported they will still have someone in there incase of a override problem. The disney monorails are different than those monorails. what disney really needs to do is spend money on a new set of trains. these are over 20 years old and are showing their age.

Interestingly, the Las Vegas Monorail trainsets (and the ones Bombadier currently offers) were based on the Mark VI designs that WDW still uses and Bombadier built based on ALWEG specifications - the main difference being updated electrical systems and the option of fully automated train control.

Trainsets _should_ last longer than 20 years, given the typical mid-life overhaul. The uniqueness of the Mark VIs/monorails in general may shorten that a bit. They more than likely need that mid-life overhaul which I don't believe they've gotten.

However, with Bombardier currently selling trainsets to a couple other customers, the time might be right to purchase new, at least if the specs haven't strayed too far. One concern might be that the whole electrical system might require updating to accommodate new trainsets - I believe they had issues when the Mark VIs were introduced. That could mean having to take the whole system down during the transition - no way to sneak

Exactly, remove human error that can result in death and lawsuits and improve the service and shorten wait times.

Bill

Sure, if you're willing to entrust your life and wellbeing to our new electronic overlords...

 

[steve76]

The monorail at Tokyo Disney is also automated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Co53a3JD5R4
(not my video!)

 

[rteetz]

Interestingly, the Las Vegas Monorail trainsets (and the ones Bombadier currently offers) were based on the Mark VI designs that WDW still uses and Bombadier built based on ALWEG specifications - the main difference being updated electrical systems and the option of fully automated train control.

Trainsets _should_ last longer than 20 years, given the typical mid-life overhaul. The uniqueness of the Mark VIs/monorails in general may shorten that a bit. They more than likely need that mid-life overhaul which I don't believe they've gotten.

However, with Bombardier currently selling trainsets to a couple other customers, the time might be right to purchase new, at least if the specs haven't strayed too far. One concern might be that the whole electrical system might require updating to accommodate new trainsets - I believe they had issues when the Mark VIs were introduced. That could mean having to take the whole system down during the transition - no way to sneak



Sure, if you're willing to entrust your life and wellbeing to our new electronic overlords...

I agree the monorails should last more than 20 years when you take care of them and update them but disney hasn't done that when they really need to. The interiors of these trains need help and unfortunately the updating we all hope for isn't happening anytime soon. When you have trains that are used every day by thousands and thousands of people they need to be cleaned and fixed up every once in a while.

 

[bethifoody]

Former monorail pilot here, who happened to be working when the Mark IVs were retired & Mark VIs were brought online. I even worked a testing shift or two (not much more than that.)

First the idea of total automation (read: no cast member on board) is horrifying. Especially given the age & condition of those trains, there should be a pilot on board any time the train leaves the station, IMNSHO.

No real issues w/ the beam/electrical system when Mark VIs were brought online - they ran simultaneously w/ the Mark IVs for a time. There IS an anticollision system built into the trains - it's called (wait for it..) the Mapo system. When it works, if one train gets too close to another, it stops automatically. The accident that took Austen's life happened because of human carelessness, nothing more. When trains are being switched from one line to another, the Mapo system is bypassed by the driver. In my day, the driver of the train in the station would have been in his cab, ready to move if he had to. Not only that, a platform worker would've had a kill switch on his person - if he saw/heard that train coming, he would've killed power to the beam, stopping the train. And finally, the Central lead would have been in the Central console/booth during a switch, monitoring the situation. (And you'll pardon me for saying so, but the pilot of the train being switched should have known he was NOT where he was supposed to be, almost immediately.)

 

[Bracho]

In Las Vegas the monorail cars are just like Disneyworld. They are 100% automatic, everything. They save so much money having it that way.

I understand wanting to speed up service but I hope that's all it is. They have been cutting out a lot of extra positions, bands, little side shows.. over the last 4-6 years. So yeah to faster service!

 

[doconeill]

Former monorail pilot here, who happened to be working when the Mark IVs were retired & Mark VIs were brought online. I even worked a testing shift or two (not much more than that.)

First the idea of total automation (read: no cast member on board) is horrifying. Especially given the age & condition of those trains, there should be a pilot on board any time the train leaves the station, IMNSHO.

No real issues w/ the beam/electrical system when Mark VIs were brought online - they ran simultaneously w/ the Mark IVs for a time. There IS an anticollision system built into the trains - it's called (wait for it..) the Mapo system. When it works, if one train gets too close to another, it stops automatically. The accident that took Austen's life happened because of human carelessness, nothing more. When trains are being switched from one line to another, the Mapo system is bypassed by the driver. In my day, the driver of the train in the station would have been in his cab, ready to move if he had to. Not only that, a platform worker would've had a kill switch on his person - if he saw/heard that train coming, he would've killed power to the beam, stopping the train. And finally, the Central lead would have been in the Central console/booth during a switch, monitoring the situation. (And you'll pardon me for saying so, but the pilot of the train being switched should have known he was NOT where he was supposed to be, almost immediately.)

As mentioned, as far as is known there will still be a pilot on board. I'm familiar with MAPO, and how often they seem to need to override it these days. More than likely overrides will still be needed.


I forget where I heard of power issues...it wasn't with the trainsets themselves, but the increased load the MVIs placed on the system...something about problems having the full set of MVIs operating that they needed to resolve.

 

[hedberg1661]

Former monorail pilot here, who happened to be working when the Mark IVs were retired & Mark VIs were brought online. I even worked a testing shift or two (not much more than that.)

First the idea of total automation (read: no cast member on board) is horrifying. Especially given the age & condition of those trains, there should be a pilot on board any time the train leaves the station, IMNSHO.

No real issues w/ the beam/electrical system when Mark VIs were brought online - they ran simultaneously w/ the Mark IVs for a time. There IS an anticollision system built into the trains - it's called (wait for it..) the Mapo system. When it works, if one train gets too close to another, it stops automatically. The accident that took Austen's life happened because of human carelessness, nothing more. When trains are being switched from one line to another, the Mapo system is bypassed by the driver. In my day, the driver of the train in the station would have been in his cab, ready to move if he had to. Not only that, a platform worker would've had a kill switch on his person - if he saw/heard that train coming, he would've killed power to the beam, stopping the train. And finally, the Central lead would have been in the Central console/booth during a switch, monitoring the situation. (And you'll pardon me for saying so, but the pilot of the train being switched should have known he was NOT where he was supposed to be, almost immediately.)

Great post. Question for you since you have some intimate experience with the Monorails... Why is Disney still using these outdated trains? They have money...we all spend it there. They should be able to create/build/buy new trains. My understanding is these are custom trains so they would require an entirely new design...so why don't they do it?

A side note...when on the Monorail and you get the recording that says the monorail system was modernized or upgraded in something like 1991 (sorry can't remember the date). Ok rant over! Thanks!

 

[JoWiJo]

This debate reminds me of the comment commercial airline pilots have made on a couple of TV productions. Namely, that modern airlines are becoming so automated that in the future they will only have one pilot and a dog in the cockpit. The pilot will strictly be there in the event that something goes wrong, so they can reach for the controls. The dog will be there to bite the pilot's hands if they try to do so.

I've got mixed feelings about this. Automated trains are nothing new. They've been around for decades. At least, on-the-ground ground systems have been. Still, computers can't know everything and make rational decisions. At best, they can have pre-programmed generic responses to electronically perceived issues that may be the wrong thing to do in a given scenario. That is why I feel that the monorails need an emergency pilot if they go this way.

But would Disney staff the monorails with pilots for emergencies? From what I've read, traversing the rail is a delicate thing to do at the curves. The monorails are not as simple as stop and go. Standby pilots would need to be trained on how to move along the track just the same way the current pilots do. Over time as new pilots come in, it will increasingly become a headache to accomplish adequate training. Worse, it would be potentially dangerous (or at least damaging to the trains) as pilots will have little time actually piloting the trains along the tracks if and when a problem does arise.

Also, I'm not sure that having a pilot on hand, just in case, would be a safety net once they work out the kinks of a system. A pilot would become extremely bored at the job and could easily lose focus, defeating the purpose of being in the cab in the first place. Yet they do need a CM somewhere on the train for emergency evacuations.

On the lighter side, if they remove all the pilots, we won't get any more YouTube videos of pilots stopping for ducks or squirrels on the tracks. Automated trains surely won't stop for animals.

 

[disneynutz]

Having automated controls for people movers isn't anything new. If Disney can cut costs and improve service either with or without a pilot, they will do it.

As far as having a CM on board for emergency evacuations, they can't move from car to car and all you can do is fall to the ground if you can get the doors open. I don't see how this makes any sense.

Bill

 

[doconeill]

Having automated controls for people movers isn't anything new. If Disney can cut costs and improve service either with or without a pilot, they will do it.

As far as having a CM on board for emergency evacuations, they can't move from car to car and all you can do is fall to the ground if you can get the doors open. I don't see how this makes any sense.

Bill

Evacuation is through the roof hatches. It's been done once before.

 

[disneynutz]

Evacuation is through the roof hatches. It's been done once before.

Where do you go once you get on the roof?

I guess it depends on what the legal requirements are. If the permitting authority requires a pilot or CM to assist in an emergency, that's what Disney will probably provide.

Bill

 

[bethifoody]

My guess as to why they won't get new, upgraded trains? They don't want to spend the money. Or maybe new trains will come once the rest of the system is upgraded for automation? Who knows? (Certainly not me! lol)

Yes, evacuations can be done through roof hatches; the cabs had a rope that could attach to a hook just above the windshield, so people could 'repel' down the windshield to walk along the beam, where they would ultimately be rescued by a cherry picker. (It's been 25 years, mind you!)

 

[ColoradoDisney]

Denver International Airport's underground train system is completely automated with no onboard pilots or any kind of staff. Of course, the system was designed from the beginning to be automated. It has been going nearly 20 years without any accidents that I am aware of.

A few years ago, I thought staying at a monorail resorts was a huge advantage. Now with the limited hours, I am less inclined. I would rather stay at Wilderness Lodge and take the boat or stay at a Boardwalk hotel and walk to EPCOT.

I would like to see Disney improve the walking access to Magic Kingdom. I like having the option of walking back from EPCOT or Hollywood Studios to the Boardwalk hotels. There should be an option to walk from GF, Poly, and WL to the MK. All of these hotels are less than a mile from the main gate of MK.

 

[rteetz]

Denver International Airport's underground train system is completely automated with no onboard pilots or any kind of staff. Of course, the system was designed from the beginning to be automated. It has been going nearly 20 years without any accidents that I am aware of.

A few years ago, I thought staying at a monorail resorts was a huge advantage. Now with the limited hours, I am less inclined. I would rather stay at Wilderness Lodge and take the boat or stay at a Boardwalk hotel and walk to EPCOT.

I would like to see Disney improve the walking access to Magic Kingdom. I like having the option of walking back from EPCOT or Hollywood Studios to the Boardwalk hotels. There should be an option to walk from GF, Poly, and WL to the MK. All of these hotels are less than a mile from the main gate of MK.

Well for right now the new hours are temporary for the automation process.

At Mk they aren't so focused on the walking portion except for the contemporary because you have the other options like boat and monorail.

The only other resort I see getting a walking way is, GF the WL and Poly are in places where i don't see a walkway happening.

 

[manning]

"welcome to monorail blue. For your safety this monorail is completely automated to eliminate any possible errors. The computer will now take over. Sit back and enjoy your journey journey journey."

 

[Andrew015]

Denver International Airport's underground train system is completely automated with no onboard pilots or any kind of staff.

You can look a lot closer to "home" for the same thing... MCO's monorail is completely automated as well...

I would like to see Disney improve the walking access to Magic Kingdom. I like having the option of walking back from EPCOT or Hollywood Studios to the Boardwalk hotels. There should be an option to walk from GF, Poly, and WL to the MK. All of these hotels are less than a mile from the main gate of MK.

There are some logistical issues that would make these walkways difficult to build, but not impossible. But IMHO, that is not the primary reason why we do not have them today. I don't believe these walkways will ever happen, and I feel that this is purposefully done. I think the intention is to limit traffic from off-property folks who might abuse things like parking, pool hopping, etc., and also to help keep these flagship resorts more "private".

 

[doconeill]

Most automated systems I am aware of are short-haul, closed-run, shuttle-type systems like the MCO trams. I'm not sure in what mode the Las Vegas monorail runs - it is a stub-end system, no turnaround loops. Are the platforms center platform and you can board on either side for either direction and one train per beam? (i.e. shuttle) Or do they switch the trains at each end?

What might make the WDW loops unique is the operation of multiple trains on the same beam, PLUS the system is not entirely closed, with trains entering and exiting from the loops via switches that require motion in the opposite direction to normal travel.

 

[MonorailDriver]

If I may interject, automation means the trains will operate with as little human interaction as possible. There WILL BE a pilot in the cab with the ability to over-ride the system "just in case". There will be cast members on the platforms to ensure orderly bordering and exiting, however most of the system will be controlled from one central location, which I believe is the control tower on the EPCOT platform.

Why aren't they just getting new trains???
New trains are expensive and the monorail system at WDW just doesn't service that many people on a given day, nor is it the main mode of transportation for most people, it is simply an option, (unless you are staying at a MK resort and going to the MK). The majority of people are arriving from on property hotels by bus to the MK. Also realize the amount of wear and tear these things receive. They are CONSTANTLY running and the investment into something that is just going to get beat up isn't worth it at this point. They replaced the trains at DL a few years back you must realize that it is more of an attraction there, with the station being inside the park. Many people in DL ride it for the sake of riding it, not to get somewhere. Furthermore if there is going to be a form of transportation property wide that is not busses, I believe it would be a people mover system of some kind. Logistics for this would be difficult I'm sure, but doesn't Disney like doing the impossible?

Disclaimer, I am not a monorail driver, just a dreamer. I do ask a lot of questions and I have someone in the know who is connected to the monorails.

 

[rteetz]

If I may interject, automation means the trains will operate with as little human interaction as possible. There WILL BE a pilot in the cab with the ability to over-ride the system "just in case". There will be cast members on the platforms to ensure orderly bordering and exiting, however most of the system will be controlled from one central location, which I believe is the control tower on the EPCOT platform. Why aren't they just getting new trains??? New trains are expensive and the monorail system at WDW just doesn't service that many people on a given day, nor is it the main mode of transportation for most people, it is simply an option, (unless you are staying at a MK resort and going to the MK). The majority of people are arriving from on property hotels by bus to the MK. Also realize the amount of wear and tear these things receive. They are CONSTANTLY running and the investment into something that is just going to get beat up isn't worth it at this point. They replaced the trains at DL a few years back you must realize that it is more of an attraction there, with the station being inside the park. Many people in DL ride it for the sake of riding it, not to get somewhere. Furthermore if there is going to be a form of transportation property wide that is not busses, I believe it would be a people mover system of some kind. Logistics for this would be difficult I'm sure, but doesn't Disney like doing the impossible? Disclaimer, I am not a monorail driver, just a dreamer. I do ask a lot of questions and I have someone in the know who is connected to the monorails.

Everything you said is correct. These trains see a lot of wear and tear and it's showing. I'm not saying they necessarily need new trains but some refurb work needs to be done soon. I also think the trains are used more than you think, lost of people make it certain to ride the monorail at least once. Yes its transportation at WDW but some see it as an attraction as well. As far as we know a pilot will still be on board incase of override situations. People always ask why doesn't disney expand the monorail also. That would cost billions just for track than you need to add more trains because you have more track its a thing that will most likely never happen. New trains I could see happen in another decade or so if they don't start taking better care of them.

 

[loriandmatt]

Yes, evacuations can be done through roof hatches; the cabs had a rope that could attach to a hook just above the windshield, so people could 'repel' down the windshield to walk along the beam, where they would ultimately be rescued by a cherry picker. (It's been 25 years, mind you!)

SWEET GRAVEY THAT SOUNDS HORRIFIYING!!!! I don't ever want to have to do this. roof hatch would be ok if it got you to the ground by means of an inflatable slide. repel down the windshield and then walk along the beam - sheesh! I (or one of my kids) would be the one person to slip and kill myself.


by the way, can I say - thank you monorail driver. we have solicited a few pics and autographs from various divers over the years. my then 5 year old thought you were more interesting than any character. "how cool is that!!?!?!? he/she gets to drive the monorail!"