Minium Wage/ McD's/ Sense of Entitlement

[Acklander]

My guess would be that most did not finish HS except for the season help who are part time while attending college.

That's what a McDonalds job was like in the old days when I was growing up. Unfortunately that's changed and it's a whole new situation out there.

 

[lizabu]

I love how so many people assume that people working minimum wage jobs ended up there because of the poor choices they made and somehow therefore deserve what they get. The reality is unless you are insanely wealthy and sometimes even then series of events can happen where you find yourself in the very same situation. How many people had this arrogant "it could never happen to me " attitude and then woke up one morning only to find their spouse had cleaned out all their accounts and maxed out their credit cards and left? Or found their investments disappear over night when the economy took a dive. I remember my BIL the millionaire who locked himself in his house for a week three years ago or so when the stock market plummeted over night.

I think if we all had a little more empathy and realized there but for the grace of God go I, this world would be a better place.

The thing is the only thing that is certain is that the future is uncertain.

 

[Colleen27]

You go right on blaming deregulation for the woes of this country. And keep heaping on new regulations (like doubling the minimum wage) and mandating health benefits. And see where it goes. Detroit is giving us a sneak peek where it might go. I contend the seeds of that economic collapse were sown many years ago as a result of regulation in the form of the Community Reinvestment Act.

I don't push education as the answer to everything. I would not suggest to a new college student that they go study sociology. Or theater. Or philosophy right now. It's a shame, because I wish there were jobs for sociology majors. But there aren't right now. You have to be smart about it. Anyone taking on substantial debt to get a sociology degree is making a mistake. I have counseled both of my sons on choosing fields they can actually get jobs in. One is starting his junior year studying to be a CPA. The other is just entering an engineering school. I have 2 nephews who just graduated college and both had great job offers upon graduation. One majored in marketing/business, the other in engineering. My third nephew is still floundering with his graphic arts degree. But just a bit of research along the way would have told him that was not a good field in this economy. It's more important than ever that our young adults make strategic decisions.

So no, "get a degree" is not good advice. "Get the right degree" is certainly good advice. But so is "study a trade". Because I don't know about you, but our plumber drives a nicer car than I do.

Detroit is, in many ways, both a unique case and a very old story. National politics had precious little to do with it, IMO. I believe we may very well be the only city in America where disinvestment in the city center went as far as it has here, with top politicians in surrounding counties saying publicly that "we don't need Detroit" and top politicians in the city saying "we don't need suburban (read: white) money". The politics of race here have improved, but still have the city council making brilliant decisions like opposing an urban-farm proposal that would put acres of vacant land to use on the grounds that it brings to mind "sharecropping" and forging ahead with closing parks rather than allowing one high-upkeep property roll into the state park system to allow the city park funds to be used solely for neighborhood parks. But at the same time, the story of Detroit is the story of every one-industry ghost town in America - too much reliance on one industry meant too little resilience when that industry declined. I know it is politically popular to blame the various acts aimed at integrating and equalizing access to housing, but it all comes back to jobs. Without them, every home loan is a bad risk and every neighborhood is vulnerable to decline. With them, people keep their homes and take pride in their communities.

As far as your take on education, the problem is that no matter how educated our young people as a whole become, we still need to have that 26+% of the workforce serving our burgers and ringing our groceries. We all try to guide our children to make choices that will keep them out of that group (and most of us want our kids to stay out of the next group too, the segment making between 100 and 200% of FPL which has an upper bound of about 44K, wich expands the "have nots" range to a majority of the workforce). And that's great for our kids if we succeed. But is it really right to simply disregard the dire straits that such a large segment of our workforce is in?

My guess would be that most did not finish HS except for the season help who are part time while attending college.

That's what a McDonalds job was like in the old days when I was growing up. Unfortunately that's changed and it's a whole new situation out there.

Exactly. I know a licensed builder and a former plumber who work at Lowes, a certified teacher who cashiers at CVS, several former IT professionals who work at Radio Shack or Best Buy because credential inflation pushed them out of the workforce (certification/associates degrees were good enough when they got their jobs, but not to land a comparable job in today's economy). These aren't high school drop outs. They aren't even high school grads with no further skills/training. Some are trying to pay back student loans on minimum wage because they borrowed to get the degree that was supposed to get them a good job, and others are tradesmen who worked in fields that have contracted too sharply to find work that matches their skillset.

 

[luvsJack]

Of course not. That would be silly. I'm just saying I've seen an awful lot of it around here.

And there's nothing wrong with a minimum wage job. But if that's what he ends up with, I will encourage him to keep a good work record, show up on time, work hard, and keep applying for better jobs. And as long as he's working, he's welcome to come sleep on my sofa. Between shifts.

What I won't do is tell him to bully his minimum wage employer into giving him more money just because he "deserves" it.

I worked a minimum wage job (or barely above) right out of college myself until I got the job I wanted with an advertising agency. But that was just to pay the bills and get started. I went home at night and worked on submitting resumes. I was newly married, so we had two low paying jobs. We drove 2 very old cars without a/c. We didn't have cell phones. (Oh, wait. That was 1985. Only the president of the ad agency had a mobile phone). But we llived in a small inexpensive apartment and just made ends meet.

I worked a minimum wage job at about that same time. $3.35 an hour. I was a single mom. I received $150 a month in food stamps.

I managed to pay our bills and keep clothes on us and the $150 went a long way for groceries. But, you know, that paycheck went a lot further then.

Our light bill was $60-70 a month, water was $15. I was lucky, I didn't pay rent. Had gas heat, bought one tank a year, it was less than $60. I bought the boys' clothes at KMart or Walmart. They would have shorts and shirts for $3 or less and even those would go on clearance. They got shoes twice a year.

I have seen single moms and families try to live on minimum wage now. It just doesn't happen. I feel so blessed every day that no one in my own family is having to deal with that.

But I remember feeling so stuck in that job. I couldn't miss time to look for something else and if I did luck up and get a week day off, I didn't have the gas money to go job hunting. I finally spent a day going through the phone book calling places to see if they had an opening. Lucked out and called a restaurant that was owned and managed by the family of someone I went to school with, they remembered me and hired me over the phone.

From there, I went into management and then back to school, into child care and all the way to where I am now.

So, I know the struggle and know what it takes to get out of it. But I also know the trapped feeling in a job like that. And I know that the fact of "just find something else" or "just go back to school" isn't as easy as some make it sound to be.

 

[carrie1626]

I really enjoy the complexity of everyone's thought's on this subject.
I'm going to try to keep in line with the original post I started.
I would also like to add that:

A job at McD's , the jobs that are being discussed, the jobs where the workers on walking out on, were never intended to be a job worthy of a living wage.
I am equating a living wage to Shelter, Food and Transportation, basic necessities. That does NOt mean, paying for Cable, Cell phone bill, Cigarettes. Or Nike Air Jordans, PINK splashed on your rear, or a multitude of Tattoos. It's basic NEEDS vs WANTS.

Many people have too many WANTS and they want their employer to subsidize it.

Because a person has applied for a job by their choice and been hired at McD's for what-ever reason ( laid off and all they could find, college grad and all they could find, single parent and all they could find) does NOT mean that McD's is responsible to meet that person"s individual financial responsibilities. It is the individuals responsibility to reduce their debts as much as they can and live within the financial column which they are in.

 

[luvsJack]

I really enjoy the complexity of everyone's thought's on this subject.
I'm going to try to keep in line with the original post I started.
I would also like to add that:

A job at McD's , the jobs that are being discussed, the jobs where the workers on walking out on, were never intended to be a job worthy of a living wage.
I am equating a living wage to Shelter, Food and Transportation, basic necessities. That does NOt mean, paying for Cable, Cell phone bill, Cigarettes. Or Nike Air Jordans, PINK splashed on your rear, or a multitude of Tattoos. It's basic NEEDS vs WANTS.

Many people have too many WANTS and they want their employer to subsidize it.

Because a person has applied for a job by their choice and been hired at McD's for what-ever reason ( laid off and all they could find, college grad and all they could find, single parent and all they could find) does NOT mean that McD's is responsible to meet that person"s individual financial responsibilities. It is the individuals responsibility to reduce their debts as much as they can and live within the financial column which they are in.

And there you go again, assuming they want anything more than the basic necessities. Why do you bring up things like tattoos or Jordans or PINK on the rear?

 

[carrie1626]

So yes a study was done that if McDonalds paid a living wage that all menu items would go up an average of 47 cents. That doesn't sound like a lot.

However that assumes that only McDonalds raised wages. Not the companies that supply their products.

Oh and if McDonalds was the only one that did this then it still wouldn't work because everyone would go to burger king and wendy's.

So all those saying that "the few times I go to McDonalds I would pay more for a living wage" Well that would only fix McDonalds, but your grocery stores and the stores you buy your clothes, don't pay $15 an hour either so if that was the minimum wage everything you have would cost a few cents more. If literally everything you purchase went up by even 10% that might no longer be ok with you.

And those that would really get hurt? Those that did learn a skill and better themselves or worked for a few years and got raises and now make 10-15 an hour... because all of a sudden they are now making minimum wage and will have the buying power of minimum wage. So you just made things much worse for them.

Or and the person making $20 an hour... that could afford to not only live but a few luxuries... they didn't get a raise when the minimum wage went up so its like they took a pay cut. Now they are just making ends meet too.

Those that are still making plenty of money that have enough to save some and can spend on things that aren't really needed... they just saw sticker shock prices went up a ton, they don't feel financially secure anymore. So they stop spending on things they don't need, they save more just in case.

All of this tanks the economy.

So yes one or two companies if they have a product that is unique enough that people would pay more for it and not just go to a competitor could raise their wages and not hurt the economy but everyone cannot.

It is truth that your right not everyone has the ability to go to college or learn some of the harder more useful skills that would pay. However it is also truth that someone will always be on the bottom and make the least, someone will always have very very little compared to everyone else in a society. Those people in our society actually do pretty well... so if I was going to be willing to pay more for some goods and services it wouldnt' be to raise the situations of those at McDonalds I would want to spend my money on those that could be helped most with it. Those in other countries where the bottom of their society means you don't even get to have food, clothing, running water, etc.

You said, what I'm thinking totally!!

 

[okeydokey]

My guess would be that most did not finish HS except for the season help who are part time while attending college.

Your guess would be wrong.

 

[ironpig70]

I have a question for everybody.

What is a living wage?

I have worked with guys making $30 an hour and working 6-7 days a week pulling up to 12 hours a day for 6-9 months straight and they are living hand to mouth.

Yes these are highly skilled workers and they are just as broke as the folks at McDonalds.

So at what point do we say enough is enough.

 

[carrie1626]

And there you go again, assuming they want anything more than the basic necessities. Why do you bring up things like tattoos or Jordans or PINK on the rear?

I have a pretty good idea of how much tattoos costs and they are a WANT, no basic living necessity there.
A top line lingerie store's clothing is more about being Cool, In, the I have to have it factor. It's just another example of a WANT, not a basic living necessity.

I still stand by my opinion. And I also believe the employees at McD's and have no other basic requirements who walked off the job because they aren't making $15 an hour still do not deserve $15 an hour for the job they chose to apply for and do.

 

[luvsJack]

I have a question for everybody.

What is a living wage?

I have worked with guys making $30 an hour and working 6-7 days a week pulling up to 12 hours a day for 6-9 months straight and they are living hand to mouth.

Yes these are highly skilled workers and they are just as broke as the folks at McDonalds.

So at what point do we say enough is enough.

Why are the living hand to mouth?

Sounds like those guys are living that way by their choice or because of choices they make.

Making a wage that SHOULD pay your rent/mortgage, pay for transportation and for food and clothes, but you don't make it do that is the fault of the employee. Making a wage that will in no way pay those things is something else.

 

[luvsJack]

I have a pretty good idea of how much tattoos costs and they are a WANT, no basic living necessity there.
A top line lingerie store's clothing is more about being Cool, In, the I have to have it factor. It's just another example of a WANT, not a basic living necessity.

I still stand by my opinion. And I also believe the employees at McD's and have no other basic requirements who walked off the job because they aren't making $15 an hour still do not deserve $15 an hour for the job they chose to apply for and do.

LOL, I know how much they cost too. And I know those things are a want not a need. That's not what I asked you. How do you know they all want these things?

Many apply for the job because they are desperate to have a job of any kind. Sometimes it not about choice.

 

[carrie1626]

I have a question for everybody.

What is a living wage?

I have worked with guys making $30 an hour and working 6-7 days a week pulling up to 12 hours a day for 6-9 months straight and they are living hand to mouth.

Yes these are highly skilled workers and they are just as broke as the folks at McDonalds.

So at what point do we say enough is enough.

AWESOME point.

It begs the answer of:

WHERE did this figure of $15 come from. Because obviously every single person who works at McD's and is part of this walk out HAS A DIFFERENT FINANCIAL NEED.

 

[manning]

We give up capitalism for socialism.

It's been done before in the old Soviet Union.

Back in the early '80 my wife's uncle came for a visit from Poland. One day we were in a store and she saw him standing there in wonder. Asked why he said here you stand in line to pay, in Poland we stand in line to get the items.

Socialism, right.

Those working at McD can get a better paying job by getting some training in a trade. There are companies looking for people who have a training in a trade, and the pay is good. It's possible to make 6 figures.

I know someone who is an auto tech (mechanic). He enjoys it, makes good money and the shop is super clean.

 

[kaytieeldr]

My guess would be that most did not finish HS except for the season help who are part time while attending college.

Your guess would be wrong.

Many low-paying service industry jobs are held by college-educated persons, or persons with many years' experience working in a field, who lost jobs and still can't get well-paying or reasonably well-paying jobs in this so-called "recovering" economy.

 

[carrie1626]

LOL, I know how much they cost too. And I know those things are a want not a need. That's not what I asked you. How do you know they all want these things?



Many apply for the job because they are desperate to have a job of any kind. Sometimes it not about choice.

I'm not going to debate my choice of words. My examples come from the TV stations in my area and the coverage they give and the McD's in the area of which I live.


I would bet that the persons desperate for any job are not walking off the job they have and picketing for $15 an hour. They will be the ones who still have their jobs after all the walk outs are fired.

 

[luvsJack]

I'm not going to debate my choice of words. My examples come from the TV stations in my area and the coverage they give and the McD's in the area of which I live.


I would bet that the persons desperate for any job are not walking off the job they have and picketing for $15 an hour. They will be the ones who still have their jobs after all the walk outs are fired.

I didn't realize that asking you a question was debating.

Are the folks on the picket lines running around with lots of tattoos and PINK on their rear? Its just a question as to why you decided they wanted those things and not to just be able to pay their light bill.

Not walking off the job doesn't make those people any less deserving of a living wage.

Have you ever lived on minimum wage?

 

[carrie1626]

I didn't realize that asking you a question was debating.

Are the folks on the picket lines running around with lots of tattoos and PINK on their rear? Its just a question as to why you decided they wanted those things and not to just be able to pay their light bill.

Not walking off the job doesn't make those people any less doesn't mean we can debate
I just want to let you know, I have absolutely no hard feelings. I love the discussion going on.

 

[Tiggeroo]

We are creating a society where there is an enormous gap between the very wealthy and the very poor. The leap from have-not to have is getting more difficult to make and the slip down to a have-not is easier. In order to feel more secure in our upper middle class position we judge those who can't get there.
You should understand that a growing class of poor is a pre-curser to uprisings and revolt. It leads to crime, the type of crime where a person doesn't really care if they get hurt or caught.
In addition in a market economy you depend on people to buy their goods. Henry Ford paid his employees a living wage and built affordable cars. He reduced his turnover, increased morale and became more successful then competitors who paid less. In addition his employees could afford to not only buy his cars but to buy homes, take little vacations and support their local businesses. A fair wage makes sense for everybody. After all operating expenses and taxes McD's makes 4.9 Billion. And this is a company that can afford to find ways to deduct things small businesses can't. Their CEO is in the top 50 paid CEO's at 20.71 million. You are saying that they can't restructure their profits to pay their employees a fair wage? They can't make sure that most workers have health insurance?
I don't believe in forcing corporations to pay more but it boggles the mind that a company and so many individuals can get insanely and disgustingly wealthy of the backs of those who have few advantages. What would happen if McD's took 1billion less a year in profits, paid their CEO 5 million less, raised the prices 15 percent and channeled that into increased pay?

 

[carrie1626]

I didn't realize that asking you a question was debating.

Are the folks on the picket lines running around with lots of tattoos and PINK on their rear? Its just a question as to why you decided they wanted those things and not to just be able to pay their light bill.

Not walking off the job doesn't make those people any less deserving of a living wage.

Have you ever lived on minimum wage?

I've never had it made. I dropped out of nursing school , still 18, young and dumb. Never had a plan more than a day in advance. Lived w a boyfriend and back then yeah, it was 2 young screw-ups making minimum wage. I didn't have a car so either walked, took a bus or asked for ride to work. It was mostly bus. Rain, snow and summer heat. It did me good all that walking. calories burned. Fast forward, moved back home from the 5 yr abusive A**Hole and working PT and met my now husband. never did buy a car of my own. Still was taking a bus to work. My husband was laid off when I met him-economic times were in the hole then too. Our first apt was as small as they come, smelled like cat Pi** but it was all we could afford.

I could go on and on. It took a long time before better times happened. One major contribution was me going back to school . I was over 40 by then.
YEAH, I know what it's like to not have enough money.
I spent many, many days regretting that 18 yr old decision of mine ,quitting nursing school. but it wasn't for me.