Mass Shooting at Orlando Club

[wilkeliza]

So, where would we get the rumors and speculation for the message board if the news organizations weren't reporting it?

You use to have to dig for news and rumors. Now we have "trusted" news sources reporting anything and everything they hear and reporters doing shady stuff to get the first report buzz.

 

[cabanafrau]

Agree. Some guys play for the Yankees, some play for the Dodgers -- but they're all baseball players. Look at any mass movement -- good or bad -- and you will see dozens, often hundreds of independent sub-groups. They are competitors internally within the movement, but they share the cause.

Speaking of the radical Islamic groups specifically, yes they do fight against each other -- the Sunnis and Shia have been fighting for more than 1,000 years and will probably fight for 1,000 more. But there are some people they all agree on hating -- with Western Civilization being the primary target. Lucky us.

But when a killer calls 9-1-1 during his killing binge to proclaim his allegiance to the "caliph" I can't think of any more compelling indication of his true state of mind, his true motives, or his true allegiance. He didn't rant against gays (that we know of), although I can't imagine anyone believing he didn't hate them! But his motivation for killing was his radical Islamic beliefs, whether he clearly understood the different flavors or not.

No level of mental or verbal gymnastics can change that fact, no matter how hard some of us contort our words and thoughts to make his horrible murders seem to be something they are not. This was a mass murder in the name of radical Islam.

I'm sure we are all mature enough to recognize that the most radical elements within any religion or political philosophy do NOT represent the true beliefs of that group -- but it's silly to pretend this is something it's not for fear of "offending" somebody.

I don't think we know what this was yet. Gathering facts and hopefully reaching a level of objective evidence that answers the question truthfully is more important than any agendas of a predetermined conclusion. Making calls in the midst of the carnage could just as easily been an outstanding way to hide something he may have been struggling with -- and die in a way he thought would finally garner dad's approval.

Sifting through facts to hopefully reach the truth, whatever it may be, should never be dismissed as verbal gymnastics -- unless one is determined to control the outcome oneself.

 

[cabanafrau]

You use to have to dig for news and rumors. Now we have "trusted" news sources reporting anything and everything they hear and reporters doing shady stuff to get the first report buzz.

It's a 24/7 news cycle, they've got airwaves to fill.

 

[bcla]

It also seems he claimed to allied with every Middle Eastern organization this side of OPEC over the past few years, and yet it seems he had very little understanding who they actually were and what there various philosophies were.

Splitting hairs perhaps, but OPEC isn't Middle Eastern.

 

[JaxDad]

It's a 24/7 news cycle, they've got airwaves to fill.

Yes. My point is that the original post included rumors and speculation, then it called the news organizations disgraceful for having rumors and speculation! We should all recognize that there will always be a LOT of rumor and speculation on huge stories like this one, especially in the age of social media. And people will choose to believe what they want to believe, because they can always find a "news" source to back it up. On the message board, we can share those and debate and hopefully be open-minded and not too thin-skinned.

 

[cabanafrau]

Yes. My point is that the original post included rumors and speculation, then it called the news organizations disgraceful for having rumors and speculation! We should all recognize that there will always be a LOT of rumor and speculation on huge stories like this one, especially in the age of social media. And people will choose to believe what they want to believe, because they can always find a "news" source to back it up. On the message board, we can share those and debate and hopefully be open-minded and not too thin-skimmed.

Oh, I agree. I was just commenting how in the past the rumors seemed to be vetted more before being dumped into the news cycle, which was partially a factor of the news cycle not being in our eyeballs and ears 24/7. There were 3 or 4 television news shows a day, half hourly news reports on radio and daily newspapers. We used to take more time to digest our news updates and reporters had more time to vet them before feeding us.

 

[CPanther95]

Yes. My point is that the original post included rumors and speculation, then it called the news organizations disgraceful for having rumors and speculation! We should all recognize that there will always be a LOT of rumor and speculation on huge stories like this one, especially in the age of social media. And people will choose to believe what they want to believe, because they can always find a "news" source to back it up. On the message board, we can share those and debate and hopefully be open-minded and not too thin-skimmed.

Still need to be careful what we post. There's a good chance one of the news agencies will use our speculation as the source for their next report.

 

[Liberty Belle]

I'm wondering, though, if the "seeing two men kissing thing" is even true. Maybe his dad just said that to make people think his son wasn't gay, afterall?

 

[cabanafrau]

I'm wondering, though, if the "seeing two men kissing thing" is even true. Maybe his dad just said that to make people think his son wasn't gay, afterall?

It seems like a strong possibility dad would rather have dead jihadist murderer for a son than dead homosexual son. Father had homophobic rants on social media until they appeared in mainstream media reports and were taken down.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Haven't seen that anywhere. Do you have a link?

http://www.ibtimes.co.in/isis-leader-al-baghdadi-killed-air-strike-report-682585

 

[JimMIA]

I'm wondering, though, if the "seeing two men kissing thing" is even true. Maybe his dad just said that to make people think his son wasn't gay, afterall?

Who knows? Obviously we have to consider the possibility that any family member of the shooter talking to the media right now has some agenda.

But based on my experience, I can't imagine someone seeing two guys kiss, then waiting several weeks, and then committing a mass murder of different people in a different city. If he was seriously upset by the PDA between two men, I would expect his response to be to confront them right then. It's just illogical that he would wait, and then hit a gay club 200+ miles from the gay men he saw in Miami.

I have no doubt he hated gays -- obviously none of us know why. We'll probably never know for sure, but clearly Pulse was not a random target selection.

OTOH...why did he also apparently case Disney Springs?

I actually think this horrible tragedy was a "twofer" -- both a radical Islamist terrorist attack, and a hate crime against gays. As many have posted in this thread, there are numerous cases of radical Islamists targeting gays worldwide. Neither mass murder nor killing gays is out of character for them.

 

[Magpie]

I'm wondering, though, if the "seeing two men kissing thing" is even true. Maybe his dad just said that to make people think his son wasn't gay, afterall?

Or, if it is true, it could be because Dad convinced the shooter at some young and impressionable age, that "gay" is something you can catch, like a disease.

I'm reminded of a boy I dated, in late teens. He was SO homophobic... any mention of someone being gay made him feel nauseous. He complained constantly about men "hitting on" him. Said he couldn't use a public bathroom without some guy trying to pick him up. He felt pursued and attacked, but at the same time, he insisted on going around (in the late 80's) wearing tiny ripped off jean shorts and mesh sports shirts that showed his (very nicely muscled) belly. That was definitely not how most straight guys dressed, at the time. The only thing he was missing was the single earring and the bandanna in his back pocket.

His mum was weird, too. First time he brought me to his house, his mum basically shut us up alone together in the basement, like she was hoping we'd make babies, or something. Which was odd, considering he was from a conservative Palestinian family, with a dad who was a Freemason. I told my mum and she said I was the "practice girlfriend" and that boys like him didn't marry girls like me. His parents would make sure he married a nice Palestinian girl.

I broke up with him, but we worked together, so we still hung out. A couple months later, I expressed mild interest in a mutual acquaintance, and he flipped out. Accused me of being one of "those women" who come between men, and break up male friendships. Which are the only real friendships, apparently.

At the time, I remember thinking, "He's crazy! And probably gay."

It's got to be horrible growing up in a prejudiced family. It's a kind of child abuse, I think!

 

[CPanther95]

It seems like a strong possibility dad would rather have dead jihadist murderer for a son than dead homosexual son. Father had homophobic rants on social media until they appeared in mainstream media reports and were taken down.

Seems either way, Dad failed as a parent.

 

[King Schultz]

Yes. My point is that the original post included rumors and speculation, then it called the news organizations disgraceful for having rumors and speculation! We should all recognize that there will always be a LOT of rumor and speculation on huge stories like this one, especially in the age of social media. And people will choose to believe what they want to believe, because they can always find a "news" source to back it up. On the message board, we can share those and debate and hopefully be open-minded and not too thin-skinned.

If you don't think professional news organizations are under more of an obligation to vet what they report than a person who posts on a message board, that's fine by me.

I disagree, but it's just my opinion.

 

[JimMIA]

http://www.ibtimes.co.in/isis-leader-al-baghdadi-killed-air-strike-report-682585

Interesting, thanks. Hopefully it's true.

 

[JaxDad]

If you don't think professional news organizations are under more of an obligation to vet what they report than a person who posts on a message board, that's fine by me.

I disagree, but it's just my opinion.

I have no idea how you got that from my posts...

Of course I think professional news organizations should vet their stories, but they don't, and I simply recognize that reality.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Interesting, thanks. Hopefully it's true.

It looks like there is some skepticism about the report. Who knows.

 

[lifesavacation]

I can't excuse the wife even if she is talking now:
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/or...ife-tried-talk-him-out-orlando-attack-n592051

She knew what he was planning and even drove him to the club to check it out. I don't think it matters if she was afraid. She had the power to stop this horrible attack.

I'm absolutely stunned that she knew he was planning this and did nothing! Where is her humanity?

 

[King Schultz]

I have no idea how you got that from my posts...

Of course I think professional news organizations should vet their stories, but they don't, and I simply recognize that reality.

Oh, I admit I didn't get that from what you said.




I apologize for not understanding.

 

[JaxDad]

Oh, I admit I didn't get that from what you said.




I apologize for not understanding.

No prob!