Mass Shooting at Orlando Club

[pigletto]

"We talk about Canada and Australia and their gun laws but please correct if I'm wrong but I don't believe I've ever seen a Radical Muslim talk about the "Canadian Devil" or the "do away with the Australian way of life".

You're wrong. While not on the same scale, we too have acts of terror committed and attempted on our soil. It's a threat to us as well. Major terrorist plots thwarted. http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/via-rail-terror-sentences-1.3240050

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Ontario_terrorism_plot

A young Corporal gunned down in front of our parliment in 2014.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_shootings_at_Parliament_Hill,_Ottawa

Just to name a few. This is an attack on a Western way of life. Not just Americans.
And this isn't just about our gun laws. It's about foreign policy as well. And we can't address those giant freaking elephants in the room without getting political which isn't allowed.

So I will say once again, I am terribly saddened that these innocent people lost their lives. It's an absolute tragedy and my heart is so heavy for all that knew and loved them.

 

[CandleontheWater]

If guns weren't available, "they" would use something else. Lets see...hmmm maybe a bomb made from a pressure cooker? That might take out a few. Or let's see maybe we could use their airplanes as missiles. Or maybe they have something new in the works. Guns aren't the problem, they are the weapon. We don't blame the car when a drunk driver gets behind the wheel.

Of course they could try something else, but compare the death toll of the Boston bombing to last nights gun massacre. It is much harder to make and properly execute an explosive devise than it is to pull a trigger.

When it comes to planes, yes the death toll was much higher on Sept 11th than last night, but there was a complete overhaul of airport security, an overhaul that has evolved as threats have evolved (shoe removal, liquid ban) and it has been successful.

Despite near daily mass shootings, there has been no effort to overhaul gun laws or improve gun safety and we are less safe today because of it. Could you imagine the backlash if the TSA had just thrown up their hands and said "there is nothing we can do, mental health is the real problem" after 9-11, yet that is what we just accept when it comes to guns.

 

[Teresa Pitman]

I do think restricting guns would help simply because they are the easiest way to kill a lot of people quickly. Those pressure cooker bombs for example were certainly horrible, but they didn't kill very many people. I remember that the day of the Sandy Hook killing, there was a man in China who went into a school and started attacking the children - but only had a knife. So some children were cut and hurt, but none died. To me, that's the difference.

Yes we need to deal with mental illness and the issue of radicalization, but in the meantime reducing access to these deadly weapons would be a big help in reducing the number of deaths.

 

[longboard55]

So here is my rant for the day:

I read through just a few pages and it appears every one is jumping on "gun violence". Has anyone actually said this is an Islamic terrorism issue?

It's not a "gay" issue. It's radical Islamic terrorism. They hate gays but got news for you - they hate us all - ALL OF US, equally. They hate us.

And I'm frankly appalled that people are using Sandy Hook and "mental health" in this thread. It's not a mental health issue. Radical Islamic folks hate us! Hate us! HATE US!

We talk about Canada and Australia and their gun laws but please correct if I'm wrong but I don't believe I've ever seen a Radical Muslim talk about the "Canadian Devil" or the "do away with the Australian way of life".

I think you can throw in a good causation v correlation argument here.

How about this for gun control: no Muslim can buy a gun? And if you've ever seen a shrink then you can't buy a gun (So to make this happen we pretty much need to forget about HIPPA Compliance. Yeah, that's not going to open a box owned by Pandora). It's really not simple.

I really just processed this conversation. My daughters best friend is a gay man. He was over this morning and he and I had talked at length and not once did it become a "gay issue". He related to this in a different way than I due to the connection (if that makes sense), but we talked in terms of human tragedy and suffering. It just breaks my heart to see this happen.

We can have all the gun control in the world but we're really only addressing the symptom and not the disease and are being intellectually dishonest to say otherwise.

Rant off.

My prayers are with all those touched by this horrible event; those who lost their life, those injured, and the families and loved ones left to try and live with the aftermath.

when you say terrorist, it implies this was an organized attack by ISIS similar to 911. It was not, it was a shooting by someone who was mentally ill. If he was white Irish catholic he would have been labeled mentally ill from the start.

 

[ashley0139]

So here is my rant for the day:

I read through just a few pages and it appears every one is jumping on "gun violence". Has anyone actually said this is an Islamic terrorism issue?

It's not a "gay" issue. It's radical Islamic terrorism. They hate gays but got news for you - they hate us all - ALL OF US, equally. They hate us.

And I'm frankly appalled that people are using Sandy Hook and "mental health" in this thread. It's not a mental health issue. Radical Islamic folks hate us! Hate us! HATE US!

We talk about Canada and Australia and their gun laws but please correct if I'm wrong but I don't believe I've ever seen a Radical Muslim talk about the "Canadian Devil" or the "do away with the Australian way of life".

I think you can throw in a good causation v correlation argument here.

How about this for gun control: no Muslim can buy a gun? And if you've ever seen a shrink then you can't buy a gun (So to make this happen we pretty much need to forget about HIPPA Compliance. Yeah, that's not going to open a box owned by Pandora). It's really not simple.

I really just processed this conversation. My daughters best friend is a gay man. He was over this morning and he and I had talked at length and not once did it become a "gay issue". He related to this in a different way than I due to the connection (if that makes sense), but we talked in terms of human tragedy and suffering. It just breaks my heart to see this happen.

We can have all the gun control in the world but we're really only addressing the symptom and not the disease and are being intellectually dishonest to say otherwise.

Rant off.

My prayers are with all those touched by this horrible event; those who lost their life, those injured, and the families and loved ones left to try and live with the aftermath.

This one in particular was absolutely a gay issue. His father said that earlier in the week he saw two men kissing in Miami and it made him angry, and that was likely the instigator. Do you think it was random that it was a gay club he shot up? It wasn't. He specifically targeted gay people. The issue now is twofold - radical Islamic terrorism and targeting LGBT. It doesn't have to be one or the other. But don't pretend it's random he happened to walk into a gay club and kill 50 people. It wasn't.

 

[ashley0139]

when you say terrorist, it implies this was an organized attack by ISIS similar to 911. It was not, it was a shooting by someone who was mentally ill. If he was white Irish catholic he would have been labeled mentally ill from the start.

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2016/06/12/orlando-nightclub-shooting/

 

[kimblebee]

Not let Muslims buy guns??

But...how...not...

I can't even.

 

[JoeA]

when you say terrorist, it implies this was an organized attack by ISIS similar to 911. It was not, it was a shooting by someone who was mentally ill. If he was white Irish catholic he would have been labeled mentally ill from the start.

And if he had a wheels he'd be a wheelbarrow. But he called 911 and pledged allegiance to ISIS so that makes him a terrorist in my book.

 

[JoeA]

Not let Muslims buy guns??

But...how...not...

I can't even.

That's my point. Unathomable, right?

 

[pat fan]

How about a law that precludes people like this whack job from getting a gun? (Those on a terrorist watch list?)

As far as I know he wasn't on a terrorist watch list.

Not to the poster I quoted, but in general, I juts popped back on here and the tone of this thread has gone down drastically. Why? People, don't tear at one another! The 2cnd Amendment is not going away, leave that argument. Can we focus on the victims and the fact this was a TERRORIST attack on American soil? Again?

 

[mnrose]

Or we can amend the amendment to the constitution. As we all learned in elementary school, it was intentionally developed to be amended, and so that's what I am working towards. It may well not happen, and we may even need to break up the nation into one for those who care and one for those who do not, but that's the path forward that I see and what I recently left my primary career to help advance. And of course we will likely have a realignment in the Supreme Court's balance in six months that will almost certainly change what many see as vast judicial overreach in D.C. vs. Heller...At which point, since you are clearly such a strict constitutionalist, I know you'll fall into line when we come for your guns.

How can I help? If Heller isn't overturned to give back the clear meaning of the express words of the 2nd Amendment (and BTW, the way it was interpreted by the Supreme Court for a LONG time before Heller), then I'm all in favor of amending the Constitution. And, I'll bet the majority of Americans would, in fact, agree to reasonable restrictions on gun ownership. Such as no large capacity magazines, no high capacity rifles which can take out many people in short order, no guns issued to people on terrorist watch lists, no guns issued to people who are mentally ill, etc

And, you know what? I see someone up above has proposed that we ban all Muslims from owning guns. I'm all in favor of that, so long as every time there is a mass shooting in this country, we ban all people of the same race /ethnicity/whatever from owning guns too. At the rate mass shootings go in this country, it would take about a week to get everyone banned from owning guns. So, if a white guy engages in a mass shooting, no white guys could own guns after that. Any Christians? Then, no Christians. Any person of Hispanic background, then no Hispanics. Let's paint with that broad brush.

 

[IndyRnRfan]

Of course they could try something else, but compare the death toll of the Boston bombing to last nights gun massacre. It is much harder to make and properly execute an explosive devise than it is to pull a trigger.

When it comes to planes, yes the death toll was much higher on Sept 11th than last night, but there was a complete overhaul of airport security, an overhaul that has evolved as threats have evolved (shoe removal, liquid ban) and it has been successful.

Despite near daily mass shootings, there has been no effort to overhaul gun laws or improve gun safety and we are less safe today because of it. Could you imagine the backlash if the TSA had just thrown up their hands and said "there is nothing we can do, mental health is the real problem" after 9-11, yet that is what we just accept when it comes to guns.

You do have proof to back up this claim don't you?

Gun deaths today are roughly the same as it was in 1979 and there was no issue with gun control and it was actually a little easier back then to acquire said weapons. Since the mid 90's privately owned guns have increased some 56%yet gun homocides have decreased some 49%.
https://www.aei.org/publication/chart-of-the-day-more-guns-less-gun-violence-between-1993-and-2013/

 

[JoeA]

This one in particular was absolutely a gay issue. His father said that earlier in the week he saw two men kissing in Miami and it made him angry, and that was likely the instigator. Do you think it was random that it was a gay club he shot up? It wasn't. He specifically targeted gay people. The issue now is twofold - radical Islamic terrorism and targeting LGBT. It doesn't have to be one or the other. But don't pretend it's random he happened to walk into a gay club and kill 50 people. It wasn't.

I'm not. He targeted that place. That's a given. His beliefs taught him to hate gays. And I'd start looking hard at dear old dad, too. Something about the apple and the tree come immediately to mind.

 

[mnrose]

As far as I know he wasn't on a terrorist watch list.

Not to the poster I quoted, but in general, I juts popped back on here and the tone of this thread has gone down drastically. Why? People, don't tear at one another! The 2cnd Amendment is not going away, leave that argument. Can we focus on the victims and the fact this was a TERRORIST attack on American soil? Again?

And, that's what those of us for REASONABLE restrictions on gun ownership are focused on. The terrorist attack occurred, at least in part, BECAUSE this whack job had easy access to high capacity magazines and a semi-automatic rifle. Easy, legal access. Some of us, no...I'll bet the MAJORITY of Americans...are against such things PRECISELY because it will keep happening again.

 

[gottaluvPluto]

This is really not a gun issue. Most of US mass shootings are gang violence. This shooting involved a person growing up with the mentality that gay people should die. When people are raised that certain people need to die because of their beliefs ... they will find a way to kill.

Taking away guns will not solve the problems we face and it won't make it easier for people not to kill.

Prayers go out to the family, friends and the communities that they were in.

 

[JoeA]

"We talk about Canada and Australia and their gun laws but please correct if I'm wrong but I don't believe I've ever seen a Radical Muslim talk about the "Canadian Devil" or the "do away with the Australian way of life".

You're wrong. While not on the same scale, we too have acts of terror committed and attempted on our soil. It's a threat to us as well. Major terrorist plots thwarted. http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/via-rail-terror-sentences-1.3240050

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Ontario_terrorism_plot

A young Corporal gunned down in front of our parliment in 2014.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_shootings_at_Parliament_Hill,_Ottawa

Just to name a few. This is an attack on a Western way of life. Not just Americans.
And this isn't just about our gun laws. It's about foreign policy as well. And we can't address those giant freaking elephants in the room without getting political which isn't allowed.

So I will say once again, I am terribly saddened that these innocent people lost their lives. It's an absolute tragedy and my heart is so heavy for all that knew and loved them.

Thanks for the post and the links.

 

[Goofy_Disney_Dad]

 

[A Mickeyfan]

He was a team member at Universal on the Harry Potter and the Forbidden Journey ride, Universal closed the ride down early tonight when word came.

RIP ..prayers for the Universal community and his family

 

[pat fan]

And, that's what those of us for REASONABLE restrictions on gun ownership are focused on. The terrorist attack occurred, at least in part, BECAUSE this whack job had easy access to high capacity magazines and a semi-automatic rifle. Easy, legal access. Some of us, no...I'll bet the MAJORITY of Americans...are against such things PRECISELY because it will keep happening again.

Does anyone actually know for sure what weapons he had and what the mags were? There's been talk, but there always is, and in my experience, the actual solid facts don't come out til later. Not that it really matters, it's just people are flying all over with we should do this or that and we don't really have all the facts yet. I know we want to blame someone, something, but it's not really productive without the solid facts.

 

[andiraye]

So here is my rant for the day:

I read through just a few pages and it appears every one is jumping on "gun violence". Has anyone actually said this is an Islamic terrorism issue?

It's not a "gay" issue. It's radical Islamic terrorism. They hate gays but got news for you - they hate us all - ALL OF US, equally. They hate us.

And I'm frankly appalled that people are using Sandy Hook and "mental health" in this thread. It's not a mental health issue. Radical Islamic folks hate us! Hate us! HATE US!

We talk about Canada and Australia and their gun laws but please correct if I'm wrong but I don't believe I've ever seen a Radical Muslim talk about the "Canadian Devil" or the "do away with the Australian way of life".

I think you can throw in a good causation v correlation argument here.

How about this for gun control: no Muslim can buy a gun? And if you've ever seen a shrink then you can't buy a gun (So to make this happen we pretty much need to forget about HIPPA Compliance. Yeah, that's not going to open a box owned by Pandora). It's really not simple.

I really just processed this conversation. My daughters best friend is a gay man. He was over this morning and he and I had talked at length and not once did it become a "gay issue". He related to this in a different way than I due to the connection (if that makes sense), but we talked in terms of human tragedy and suffering. It just breaks my heart to see this happen.

We can have all the gun control in the world but we're really only addressing the symptom and not the disease and are being intellectually dishonest to say otherwise.

Rant off.

My prayers are with all those touched by this horrible event; those who lost their life, those injured, and the families and loved ones left to try and live with the aftermath.

I agree with you that if this is definitively tied to Islamic terrorist groups (which looks likely but hasn't been confirmed) it is different from some other acts of gun violence -- there would clearly be certain very specific motives behind it that relate to particular geopolitical forces. And because of that preventing it from happening requires some different steps. How we deal with terrorist groups like ISIS and their recruiting tactics and propaganda throughout the world is a big issue.

However, I do think there is some overlap between homegrown Islamic terrorism utilizing guns and other acts of mass gun violence. In my mind it is that overlapping space in the Venn diagrams from high school.

Common to both types of violence are (1) people who are (or feel) marginalized and ostracized, (2) anger/hate/rage and (3) easy access (whether legal or black market) to guns.

I think in both cases part of the conversation needs to take into account mental health issues and access to weapons.

Please understand that by talking about ostracizatiin and mental health I am NOT excusing any of the acts or saying that the perpetrators should not be held responsible under any legal standard involving not knowing right from wrong. The acts are evil. But mental health services can help with the depression and anger that can lead people to become prey to cults and other fringe groups.

Also please understand that I am not suggesting that focusing on these two areas would completely solve both problems. Rather, I'm saying that these two areas are necessary parts of policy reform that happens to address part of both problems. But both problems require other, different steps too.