Marble Rye Episode of Seinfeld

[tlens]

I like macaroni salad. Didn't realize that made me low class.

The things one learns on this board.

Excuse me now as I pick my teeth and spit.

 

[NotUrsula]

It could be a class thing but I think it's more what people are taught now as well. One of the first classes I took when I married my husband was an customs and courtesy class regarding military events.

I was taught and still use now that if I am invited for a dinner party and told to bring no food, I do not bring food. I bring a hostess gift. The class instructor made it clear should you bring a food to a party where it was expressed no food needed to be brought then it is considered a hostess gift and would be put away for enjoyment by the host/ess at a later time.

As it happens, I took a class like that, too (only not military-based), but I know that we both are in a heck of a minority on that. Formal etiquette training is very rare in working-class circles these days. Obviously, the Army felt the need to have to include that information in the class, so the presumption was there that it wouldn't be universally known..

And no, for another poster, the kind of party one chooses to host isn't a class-based thing. An upper-class person can hold a pot-luck anytime they like. What is class-based is not being aware that being told, "No, really, we have everything we'll need. Just come and have fun." is a polite euphemism for, "The menu for this event is set. Contributions of food to be shared are not welcome." Interpreting it that way wouldn't occur to most working-class people, because the idea that a contribution of food to share would actually be unwelcome is very often completely outside their life experience.

 

[Laugh O. Grams]

I like macaroni salad. Didn't realize that made me low class.

The things one learns on this board.

Excuse me now as I pick my teeth and spit.

I like macaroni salad too. Sorry you're projecting something unsaid and unnecessary onto yourself. It saddens me.

 

[Wendy31]

The simple answer is, it's a class thing.

I've personally never encountered a working-class party that was anything but a free-for-all in terms of food. Some people bring things, some don't; no one care, but any and all food is shared -- it's all about sharing a good time and breaking bread together. (Now, COOKING at the site of the party is always something that needs to be cleared in advance with the host, no matter who you are.) IME, most women will feel obligated to help either cook or clean if they didn't bring any food or drink to share. (Men, less so. The genders tend to split off at working-class parties, and unless the event involves cooking outdoors, the men are less likely to be involved with the food at all.)

True dinner parties, with traditional "hostess gifts" are more of a middle- and upper-class style of gathering. The trick of them is that though you don't bring anything to share, you are expected to reciprocate by inviting the hosts to a similar gathering of your own sometime soon ... which is why the traditional dinner party is dying. It's a whole lot less trouble to reciprocate with a dish than to reciprocate with another party.

The joke of the whole George/Susan romance was always about class differences and George's total ignorance about upper-middle-class norms.

As it happens, I took a class like that, too (only not military-based), but I know that we both are in a heck of a minority on that. Formal etiquette training is very rare in working-class circles these days. Obviously, the Army felt the need to have to include that information in the class, so the presumption was there that it wouldn't be universally known..

And no, for another poster, the kind of party one chooses to host isn't a class-based thing. An upper-class person can hold a pot-luck anytime they like. What is class-based is not being aware that being told, "No, really, we have everything we'll need. Just come and have fun." is a polite euphemism for, "The menu for this event is set. Contributions of food to be shared are not welcome." Interpreting it that way wouldn't occur to most working-class people, because the idea that a contribution of food to share would actually be unwelcome is very often completely outside their life experience.

I think these are good points, & kinda the way I grew up as well - both w/ the "free for all" family-type get-togethers & the more "set" dinner parties - and learning to know the difference between a potluck & a set menu.

My grandfather was a wonderful, wonderful man. He was from a poor, rural area of Alabama & grew up on a farm. He was a WWII vet & worked in an auto parts department after he married my grandmother; after he retired, he worked as a bag boy at a local grocery store - working class his whole life. After my grandmother got sick & was diagnosed w/ Alzheimer's, he taught himself to cook - his specialties were a squash casserole & a hashbrown casserole.

And, whenever he came over to my parents' house to eat, he never came empty-handed. He'd always ask if he could bring something, & my mom would always say that she had everything planned. But, still he'd bring my mom flowers or a tin of candy since she was the "hostess." At Christmas, he'd come w/ a packaged fruit cake. At Easter, he'd come in the door w/ a Easter Lily.

I like macaroni salad. Didn't realize that made me low class.

The things one learns on this board.

Excuse me now as I pick my teeth and spit.

Nothing's wrong w/ macaroni salad. As long as it doesn't have mayo in it. And just don't bring it to a dinner when someone tells you, "Thank you for offering, but I think we have everything. Just come & enjoy!"

 

[FairestOfThemAll37]

As it happens, I took a class like that, too (only not military-based), but I know that we both are in a heck of a minority on that. Formal etiquette training is very rare in working-class circles these days.

Um, formal etiquette training is pretty rare in any circles these days.

 

[gwynne]

As it happens, I took a class like that, too (only not military-based), but I know that we both are in a heck of a minority on that. Formal etiquette training is very rare in working-class circles these days. Obviously, the Army felt the need to have to include that information in the class, so the presumption was there that it wouldn't be universally known..

And no, for another poster, the kind of party one chooses to host isn't a class-based thing. An upper-class person can hold a pot-luck anytime they like. What is class-based is not being aware that being told, "No, really, we have everything we'll need. Just come and have fun." is a polite euphemism for, "The menu for this event is set. Contributions of food to be shared are not welcome." Interpreting it that way wouldn't occur to most working-class people, because the idea that a contribution of food to share would actually be unwelcome is very often completely outside their life experience.

BBM. Dreadful manners appear lots of places.

 

[Hrhpd]

The simple answer is, it's a class thing.

I've personally never encountered a working-class party that was anything but a free-for-all in terms of food. Some people bring things, some don't; no one care, but any and all food is shared -- it's all about sharing a good time and breaking bread together. (Now, COOKING at the site of the party is always something that needs to be cleared in advance with the host, no matter who you are.) IME, most women will feel obligated to help either cook or clean if they didn't bring any food or drink to share. (Men, less so. The genders tend to split off at working-class parties, and unless the event involves cooking outdoors, the men are less likely to be involved with the food at all.)

True dinner parties, with traditional "hostess gifts" are more of a middle- and upper-class style of gathering. The trick of them is that though you don't bring anything to share, you are expected to reciprocate by inviting the hosts to a similar gathering of your own sometime soon ... which is why the traditional dinner party is dying. It's a whole lot less trouble to reciprocate with a dish than to reciprocate with another party.

The joke of the whole George/Susan romance was always about class differences and George's total ignorance about upper-middle-class norms.

I would hope that somebody with "class" would be well enough versed in the proper etiquette that your guests are more important than a "thing" like a menu. While the guest bringing the salad may have been mistaken in bringing food to a dinner party, anybody with even the modicum of etiquette knowledge and class knows that the #1 basic rule is that you never insult a guest.

A person's feelings are far more important than a silly menu. To be so self-absorbed that you are willing to hurt a guest's feelings because of your precious menu, does exhibit class, but not the kind you are thinking about. To shove the food in the refrigerator rather than putting it out shows an abysmal lack of class and demonstrates boorish behavior at its best.

Through work, I have been to plenty of truly upper crust dinner parties and I can tell you that every single hostess would put out the dish rather than risk insulting their guest. I have also been to plenty of what you label as working class (big on labels are we?) and even those working class stiffs have better manners than to put a menu above a guest's feelings.

I would ask for my money back on that etiquette class, because they did not teach the most basic of etiquette rules on how to treat guests.

 

[Skywalker]

I would ask for my money back on that etiquette class, because they did not teach the most basic of etiquette rules on how to treat guests.

Yep! I think some people get so hung up on "the letter of the law", that they forget "the spirit of the law". A good hostess knows its their job to make each guest feel comfortable. The whole point of hosting is to share your home, food and hospitality and make others feel warm and welcome and good. Otherwise, what is the point of hosting? To show off your house? To show off your mad menu planning skillz?

Its like that old saying, they might not remember what you said or did, but they will remember how you made them feel. Someone with true grace, manners, and class makes others feel good - not hurt, snubbed or awkward.

 

[Kellykins1218]

Someone with true grace, manners, and class makes others feel good - not hurt, snubbed or awkward.

 

[NewRVLady]

Yep! I think some people get so hung up on "the letter of the law", that they forget "the spirit of the law". A good hostess knows its their job to make each guest feel comfortable. The whole point of hosting is to share your home, food and hospitality and make others feel warm and welcome and good. Otherwise, what is the point of hosting? To show off your house? To show off your mad menu planning skillz?

Its like that old saying, they might not remember what you said or did, but they will remember how you made them feel. Someone with true grace, manners, and class makes others feel good - not hurt, snubbed or awkward.

Very well said!

This thread actually reminds me of MY "famous" pasta salad
For the last 10 plus years a couple of oldest son's buddies always request
He bring some to their annual Beach House trip

 

[LBIJim]

On the other hand, a guest who is so self-absorbed and boorish enough to bring unsolicted food to a gathering after specifically being requested not to deserves to get their feelings hurt. The guest is the one making things awkward and needs to be taught some manners. The hostess is being more than gracious by accepting the food and putting it in the refrigerator for later.

 

[gwynne]

On the other hand, a guest who is so self-absorbed and boorish enough to bring unsolicted food to a gathering after specifically being requested not to deserves to get their feelings hurt. The guest is the one making things awkward and needs to be taught some manners. The hostess is being more than gracious by accepting the food and putting it in the refrigerator for later.

Some folks might enjoy the opportunity to take a guest down a peg or two.
Other folks choose to look for the best in their guest, and don't feel it is necessary to judge or educate.
Different strokes....

 

[mjkacmom]

On the other hand, a guest who is so self-absorbed and boorish enough to bring unsolicted food to a gathering after specifically being requested not to deserves to get their feelings hurt. The guest is the one making things awkward and needs to be taught some manners. The hostess is being more than gracious by accepting the food and putting it in the refrigerator for later.

More than gracious? Putting it in the fridge instead of handing it back and yelling them to put it in their car? Yes, the guest should not have arrived with the macaroni salad, but I'm sure the intent was good. The dinner party would not have been ruined if the salad was on the table. As a host, you make your guests feel comfortable.

The last gathering we had was a pool party, very informal. People asked what they could bring, and I said they didn't have to bring anything, but if they chose to, we would have burgers, hot dogs, sausage, chicken, salad, and chips (planned it the night before, so it was minimal). One friend brought a whole watermelon, and when she arrived to the chaos of 30 or so people arriving, and me racing around getting ready, she apologized for not cutting it up. I reassured her it was no bother, and brought it into the kitchen, and cut it up as soon as I was able. Did I feel like cutting up a watermelon? Not really.

 

[tzolkin]

And no, for another poster, the kind of party one chooses to host isn't a class-based thing. An upper-class person can hold a pot-luck anytime they like. What is class-based is not being aware that being told, "No, really, we have everything we'll need. Just come and have fun." is a polite euphemism for, "The menu for this event is set. Contributions of food to be shared are not welcome." Interpreting it that way wouldn't occur to most working-class people, because the idea that a contribution of food to share would actually be unwelcome is very often completely outside their life experience.

I know others are jumping all over this poster, but this is absolutely correct (and why there is an argument going on about the topic here). She's not saying one is right or wrong, just that there are sociological differences.

Let's just substitute "class" with "cultural" or "regional". In some cultures, bringing food is a welcome (and even expected) way to contribute to the group and foster a sense of shared community. In other groups, it is a blatant insult to the host implying that they are incapable of providing an adequate meal.

These distinctions appear throughout the world. We all know that different behaviors are considered appropriate or unacceptable in different cultures. So I don't see why so many are getting insulted because everyone else doesn't do things their way.

If you were traveling abroad and were invited into a Muslim family's home, would you refuse to remove your shoes or insist that they serve the pork dish you brought along because that's what happens at dinners with your circle of friends? You wouldn't think they were rude or uptight or insisting that they were "better than everyone else" You would accept it as a cultural difference and move on.

 

[frndshpcptn]

I know others are jumping all over this poster, but this is absolutely correct (and why there is an argument going on about the topic here). She's not saying one is right or wrong, just that there are sociological differences.

Let's just substitute "class" with "cultural" or "regional". In some cultures, bringing food is a welcome (and even expected) way to contribute to the group and foster a sense of shared community. In other groups, it is a blatant insult to the host implying that they are incapable of providing an adequate meal.

These distinctions appear throughout the world. We all know that different behaviors are considered appropriate or unacceptable in different cultures. So I don't see why so many are getting insulted because everyone else doesn't do things their way.

If you were traveling abroad and were invited into a Muslim family's home, would you refuse to remove your shoes or insist that they serve the pork dish you brought along because that's what happens at dinners with your circle of friends? You wouldn't think they were rude or uptight or insisting that they were "better than everyone else" You would accept it as a cultural difference and move on.

I'm not sure you can just replace class with culture in this case. They are not mutually exclusive.

In my "culture" I wouldn't bring a dish to a formal, catered, seated dinner. No need, food already taken care of. I'd bring a hostess gift instead.

Holiday dinners are not formal (any longer, they were back in the day when I was a child). So in this case, yes I'd bring something - as would people bring if I were hosting in my home. Everyone makes something that different people love during the holidays and all food is welcome.

BBQs - bring for sure.

Most "dinner parties" on a weekend are at a restaurant b/c most of my circle doesn't have the time to prep and cook and we often just go out. So no dishes there either.

 

[NotUrsula]

I would hope that somebody with "class" would be well enough versed in the proper etiquette that your guests are more important than a "thing" like a menu. While the guest bringing the salad may have been mistaken in bringing food to a dinner party, anybody with even the modicum of etiquette knowledge and class knows that the #1 basic rule is that you never insult a guest.

A person's feelings are far more important than a silly menu. To be so self-absorbed that you are willing to hurt a guest's feelings because of your precious menu, does exhibit class, but not the kind you are thinking about. To shove the food in the refrigerator rather than putting it out shows an abysmal lack of class and demonstrates boorish behavior at its best.

Through work, I have been to plenty of truly upper crust dinner parties and I can tell you that every single hostess would put out the dish rather than risk insulting their guest. I have also been to plenty of what you label as working class (big on labels are we?) and even those working class stiffs have better manners than to put a menu above a guest's feelings.

I would ask for my money back on that etiquette class, because they did not teach the most basic of etiquette rules on how to treat guests.

Um ...what?

You seem to have missed it, but I actually didn't say that I thought either side was correct, or that either side was rude. I was talking about why differences of opinion on this issue exist, and that most often the expectation of what is normal or even what is obvious is tied to a person's background.

FTR, I *am* working-class, or more accurately, I'm what some people call a 'Tweener; someone from a working-class family who was the oddball who pursued higher education and ended up working in a profession -- in my case, as an academic. I know this stuff from personal experience of spending a lot of my lifetime as a fish out of water.

Obviously, the Seinfeld thing was taken to huge extremes for laughs (trying to sneak in and replace the loaf of bread), but I guarantee you that the idea for the bit came from some writer's experience of someone not understanding the dynamic in a similar situation.

If you are asking how I personally feel about the idea of someone getting annoyed because a guest brought unexpected food after being hinted away from it (notice I didn't say "after being told in no uncertain terms that it was not wanted"), then my answer is that I personally would think that the annoyed host was being ungracious. I welcome anything anyone brings, and I wouldn't dream of not sharing it with the group ... but then, my family background makes that pretty much a given.

I actually was in a similar situation just this Christmas at a family gathering; we had a HUGE surplus of bread because three different people decided it would be a good idea to bring some. What did we do? We cut the loaves and used part of each contribution, of course. If one person's bread was going to end up going stale, then everyone's would.

 

[LBIJim]

More than gracious? Putting it in the fridge instead of handing it back and yelling them to put it in their car? Yes, the guest should not have arrived with the macaroni salad, but I'm sure the intent was good. The dinner party would not have been ruined if the salad was on the table. As a host, you make your guests feel comfortable.

.

Yes, the hostess was gracious by accepting the uninvited food. Perhaps she SHOULD have yelled at the guest and told them to put it back in the car. That might be the only way for some boorish guests to get a clue. **

No, in almost all cases an uninvited food item won't ruin a party. But a guest should be equally gracious if the hostess decides not to serve it, but rather save it for later.

** I'm not referring to the macaroni salad incident. Some other poster said she specifically requested that her guests NOT bring anything, but someone did anyway. I guess the subtle hint wasn't enough; maybe the hostess should have resorted to telling them "in no uncertain terms.")

 

[Gumbo4x4]

I think anyone who worries about a macaroni salad "clashing" with her standing rib roast had damn well better be prepared to serve up the best rib roast in the history of rib roasts.

 

[LBIJim]

I think anyone who worries about a macaroni salad "clashing" with her standing rib roast had damn well better be prepared to serve up the best rib roast in the history of rib roasts.

No doubt the standing rib roast was crème de la crème. The hostess was doing the macaroni salad bringer a FAVOR by shoving it into the back of the refrigerator. She was sparing her the embarrassment of being associated with such a plebeian dish. Just imagine the horror if the haut monde had seen it among the other delicacies!!!