Marathon Weekend 2019

I was just wondering if AP/DVC registration would be next Thursday....

I took off work when my husband registered for 2016 Dopey. I was registering for the 10K, but I was more concerned about his Dopey lol. I won't be able to be off next week, so I've been checking every day for the last week to make sure the AP page/runDisney/Active all come up on my work computer! I don't have cell service at work either so I get so nervous about registration!!
 
Seems like you're missing something in your training potentially. If you want to get the full PR down, I'd be more than willing to sit down with you and discuss your previous training to look for places to tweak. I've had good luck thus far getting runners into the top 6-20% of marathon converter range.

Yeah I'm definitely missing, and I think it's a combination of total miles and long runs. I always manage a run or two at 18-20 miles, but it tends to be a large portion of that week's mileage. I had mostly been doing Hal Higdon's plans, but I'm looking to switch to something else, like Jack Daniels or Hanson. I think I need a greater number of 10+ mile runs, and Higdon really only gives you like 8. Hanson's beginner plan has many more.
 
Yeah I'm definitely missing, and I think it's a combination of total miles and long runs. I always manage a run or two at 18-20 miles, but it tends to be a large portion of that week's mileage. I had mostly been doing Hal Higdon's plans, but I'm looking to switch to something else, like Jack Daniels or Hanson. I think I need a greater number of 10+ mile runs, and Higdon really only gives you like 8. Hanson's beginner plan has many more.
I think there could be a lot of factors. If you are following a Hal Higdon training program I don't see how there could be that much of a drop off in time. How many days per week are you running? Are you running at the appropriate pace during your runs? Are you eating right and getting enough carbs? Hitting 18-20 miles is pretty standard in any marathon training plan. But if you combine it with a few other easy runs during the week, intervals, and a tempo run, you should be able to see results.
 

Yeah I'm definitely missing, and I think it's a combination of total miles and long runs. I always manage a run or two at 18-20 miles, but it tends to be a large portion of that week's mileage. I had mostly been doing Hal Higdon's plans, but I'm looking to switch to something else, like Jack Daniels or Hanson. I think I need a greater number of 10+ mile runs, and Higdon really only gives you like 8. Hanson's beginner plan has many more.

When was the 1:55 HM?

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How do the above paces relate to what you've been doing recently? Most Higdon plans fall in line with this pacing scheme with about 80% of training at 9:53 min/mile or slower. Many of the Higdon weekday runs around 10:15-11:00. You may not necessarily need to make a big jump in mileage or days per week of running. I wrote a plan once that cut 80 min off a PR off a special 4 day plan. And a different runner had been using Hansons for a few cycles and we switched it up and he cut his 11th marathon down from 4:34 to 3:59. So sometimes the move is the right one, and sometimes it's actually about running a little less and specializing a little more.

Tell me about the marathon experience. What paces did you start out at? At what point did the pace start to slow down/fade?
 
I’m running my first Disney race and first marathon next year and I’m very excited! Reading through the thread I’ve got a question.

Why is corral placement such an issue? I’m running a HM in August to get a time, but I’m personally not worried if I would be a couple pace groups off. What am I missing? Should I be stressed about placement?
 
I’m running my first Disney race and first marathon next year and I’m very excited! Reading through the thread I’ve got a question.

Why is corral placement such an issue? I’m running a HM in August to get a time, but I’m personally not worried if I would be a couple pace groups off. What am I missing? Should I be stressed about placement?

To some people it is really important, to others it isn’t. Part of it is because the course is less crowded in the front corrals and if you want to see characters, it helps. The corrals in the back at larger and more crowded.
 
When was the 1:55 HM?

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How do the above paces relate to what you've been doing recently? Most Higdon plans fall in line with this pacing scheme with about 80% of training at 9:53 min/mile or slower. Many of the Higdon weekday runs around 10:15-11:00. You may not necessarily need to make a big jump in mileage or days per week of running. I wrote a plan once that cut 80 min off a PR off a special 4 day plan. And a different runner had been using Hansons for a few cycles and we switched it up and he cut his 11th marathon down from 4:34 to 3:59. So sometimes the move is the right one, and sometimes it's actually about running a little less and specializing a little more.

Tell me about the marathon experience. What paces did you start out at? At what point did the pace start to slow down/fade?

Oh I'm even weirder than that. The 1:55 half was in April 2017. I did a 10k two weekends ago at 8:06/mile (50:22). I just think I'm better trained between 5-10 miles, and for my half marathons I've been able to keep it up an extra 5k.

My full marathon experience has been MCM in 2013 (5:19), NYC in 2014 (5:12), Chicago in 2016 (5:32 but I woke up sick at 4AM) and Dopey 2018 (6:19, using a run/walk and struggling to get the wife across the finish line). I can maintain a sub-11 pace for the first 15-17 miles and then the wheels tend to fall off. Part of me wonders if I run the first half too slow and it zaps my energy for the last 9-11 miles, or if I just need to run more at 15-20 miles and more total miles. I'll say that my weekly milage during those training cycles tended to be at or under 40 MPW/4 runs per week. I've been pretty consistently doing 5 runs per week and keeping at least one of those a speed workout. I ran 114 miles in March with an average pace of 9:12/mile, but the longest run was only 9 miles.
 
Why is corral placement such an issue? I’m running a HM in August to get a time, but I’m personally not worried if I would be a couple pace groups off. What am I missing? Should I be stressed about placement?
I've never understood all the stress and drama about corral placement... but I'm also a slower runner who won't ever be in the front corrals, so my perspective is different, I'm sure, from someone who is faster.

Personally, I want to be placed in a corral with people who more or less move at the same pace I do. Being in a corral full of people faster than me isn't real fun, and neither is feeling "stuck" with 1,000s of people moving slower. The best way to make that happen is to provide an accurate estimated finish time. And if that estimated finish time requires Proof of Time, making sure that gets submitted properly.

The problem we're having lately is that rD/Track Shack uses a calculation to determine whether or not PoT supports and estimated finish time, but they won't reveal what that calculation is. So for folks like me, whose PoT time is right on the cusp of being required or not, or of matching a certain corral placement time or not, it's hard to figure out.
 
Oh I'm even weirder than that. The 1:55 half was in April 2017. I did a 10k two weekends ago at 8:06/mile (50:22). I just think I'm better trained between 5-10 miles, and for my half marathons I've been able to keep it up an extra 5k.

My full marathon experience has been MCM in 2013 (5:19), NYC in 2014 (5:12), Chicago in 2016 (5:32 but I woke up sick at 4AM) and Dopey 2018 (6:19, using a run/walk and struggling to get the wife across the finish line). I can maintain a sub-11 pace for the first 15-17 miles and then the wheels tend to fall off. Part of me wonders if I run the first half too slow and it zaps my energy for the last 9-11 miles, or if I just need to run more at 15-20 miles and more total miles. I'll say that my weekly milage during those training cycles tended to be at or under 40 MPW/4 runs per week. I've been pretty consistently doing 5 runs per week and keeping at least one of those a speed workout. I ran 114 miles in March with an average pace of 9:12/mile, but the longest run was only 9 miles.

So I think we've got your answer.

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Your 10k suggests the following pacing structure. With 80% at 9:35 or slower. I write training plans for 5k, 10k, HM, or M (or anything in between). The common thread amongst the plans is the idea of 80% easy and 20% hard. While not advertised, many of the other traditional plans (Hansons, Galloway, Daniels, Higdon, Gaudette, Fitzgerald, etc.) follow a similar periodization of pacing (80/20). One of the only ones that doesn't is FIRST, but that has its own special characteristics that make up for it. When writing a plan regardless of distance that comes out around 80/20, my plans average weekly/monthly pace is very very close to the EB pace I schedule. So that means I would guess your average weekly pace should be around a 9:55-10:00 min/mile. But you're at a 9:12 min/mile. So I'd venture to guess you're training far too fast. Your average pace would be more indicative of appropriately paced training for someone at a 1:42 HM or a 46 min 10k.

So why can you succeed at the 10k and HM, but struggle with the M given this possible issue? Two reasons.

1) Those slower paces are paramount to eliciting the adaptations for a M. You can get away with the faster pacing structure on a 10k and HM because it doesn't have quite the same endurance demand that a M does. Primarily it comes down to Running Economy and the ability to maintain the Lactate Threshold at a set pace for a longer period of time. The worse off the RE, the faster the LT pace can shift and thus the "doom clock" gets started. Running slower improves RE. These slower paces also allow the body to actually adapt to the training. Instead of always being so focused on recovering from a stimulus, the body can instead adapt because of it.

2) Because it would seem you're training too quickly, then you carry more fatigue into your race events. Too much fatigue into a 10k or a HM, and you can survive it. Too much fatigue carried into a M, and it'll crush you real quick.

It's possible running an 11 min/mile is also hurting your racing experience, especially if that's not a pace your regularly train at. Different paces put different demands on the muscles, bones, feet, etc. Running at a pace that you haven't trained at for an extremely long duration is going to lead to fatigue to muscles that haven't been trained for that. I generally recommend trying to race a M somewhere between M pace and EB pace. If someone is doing several marathons in the course of a year (like 5), then running at a slower pace like EA then becomes a good option as well.

When I look at training, I look at durations. For endurance events, there are several windows of adaptations. A 60 min or less window, a 60-90 min window, and a 90-150 min window. The 60 min or less window is good for maintaining fatigue or recovering. A 60-90 min window is a good endurance booster. A 90-150 min window is a good running economy booster when the pacing is on target. Train too fast or for too long on some of these windows/pace and it shifts the adaptation/recovery response. You end up in the dreaded "Survive the training, instead of thriving because of it".
 
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I’m running my first Disney race and first marathon next year and I’m very excited! Reading through the thread I’ve got a question.

Why is corral placement such an issue? I’m running a HM in August to get a time, but I’m personally not worried if I would be a couple pace groups off. What am I missing? Should I be stressed about placement?

Seriously, Don't stress, it's not worth it in my opinion. If you can run a race to get Proof of Time if it will put you in one of the corrals that require it. If you can't, you can still run your race from anywhere ( or at least that's what I've heard as personally I've never started in the back so can't say for sure).

But I like corral placement so I'm starting with people of like paces, that's truly the point of it. However, there are many people who want to stop for characters and such and whose paces may not be as quick so want more of a buffer in front of the sweepers. Or quiet frankly their pace is over 16 min/mile even without stops and they want the buffer. Unfortunately, at Disney people will use fake times, bib mules, jump corrals (been smashed before by gals doing this) or whatever to get out of the back ones to give themselves that extra time.

But really it's not worth the stress & drama some will make of it.
 
The problem we're having lately is that rD/Track Shack uses a calculation to determine whether or not PoT supports and estimated finish time, but they won't reveal what that calculation is. So for folks like me, whose PoT time is right on the cusp of being required or not, or of matching a certain corral placement time or not, it's hard to figure out.

I could be totally wrong here - tbh PoT makes my brain hurt - but knowing the calculation doesn’t really matter unless you’re trying for a certain corral and you know what gets you into that corral. The important part would be are they doing that calculation the same for everyone so you are being seeded with like people and ahead or behind of others appropriately. It seems that maybe they aren’t. Now knowing that calculation would allow you to prove that out so there is that.

I think the other place Disney has messed up is in going to fewer and larger corrals. It’s opened up people being jammed in with a lot of different paces and making more people much more conscious of the system and the process of how they are corralled.
 
I think the other place Disney has messed up is in going to fewer and larger corrals. It’s opened up people being jammed in with a lot of different paces and making more people much more conscious of the system and the process of how they are corralled.
^THAT is exactly why the calculation matters to me right now. My 10K time is sooooo close to the cutoff between the 2:45 and under corrals and the gigantic 2:46-3:00 corral, exactly how it's calculated into a half time makes a difference. Not knowing what calculation rD uses, I had no idea if submitting my 10K time would support a sub-2:45 estimated finish time - and if it didn't, I could potentially land in the last corral (because that's where they put folks who didn't submit PoT that supports their estimated finish time when it's required.) If my PoT time were a little faster or a little slower, the exact calculation wouldn't matter.

When I first started running WDW races, we only had a few corrals and they were all big. Cutoff for requiring PoT was 3:00 for the halfs. It was okay. Then they moved to having lots of smaller corrals and the PoT cutoff moved to 2:45 - it all worked much better IMO. Now they've gone to fewer corrals, but instead of distributing people fairly evenly, they lump aaaaaall of the 2:46-3:00 (no PoT required) people into one huge corral. Not terrific. I've done my time in that giant corral the past couple years and I'm ready to get out now, lol!
 
^THAT is exactly why the calculation matters to me right now. My 10K time is sooooo close to the cutoff between the 2:45 and under corrals and the gigantic 2:46-3:00 corral, exactly how it's calculated into a half time makes a difference. Not knowing what calculation rD uses, I had no idea if submitting my 10K time would support a sub-2:45 estimated finish time - and if it didn't, I could potentially land in the last corral (because that's where they put folks who didn't submit PoT that supports their estimated finish time when it's required.) If my PoT time were a little faster or a little slower, the exact calculation wouldn't matter.

I don't think you need to worry about this happening. If you're truly right on the line, they're not going to penalize you for a PoT which suggests 2:46 and an estimated time of 2:44. The people who will get put into the last corral will be the ones who submit an estimated time of 2:30 and a PoT of 2:55, for example.
 
Lurking in...

Do you think they moved to bigger later corrals because so many people figured out the loophole that if you put a time of 2:45 with no POT irregardless of your ability that you'd have a leg up on people who used accurate slower times? So instead of making 3 or 4 corrals all with 2:45 and having people in the back of those corrals ask why they couldn't be in the farther up 2:45 corrals, that Disney just said "Okay, one GIANT 2:45"?

This has probably been brought up before.

I wonder why they don't just have people submit POT's for a larger range of times. Like POT cutoff for 3 hours for the half etc. Just a thought.
 
Back when rD moved to a 2:45 cutoff for PoT (for halfs), PoT was submitted through rD, not Active. And when you entered your PoT time - say a 10K time for a rD half - it told you right there what time they estimated for your half time. So you could then select the correct estimated finish bracket. No mystery, no guessing - everything you needed was right there! This new(ish) mysteriousness about how they calculate is just silly and a PITA for us, as well as rD/Track Shack.
 












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