Mall bans unsupervised kids/teens

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Because of they found it necessary to keep all kids out after a certain time.

So they let the kids run around crazy and didn't so much as do a darn thing but ban them?

I doubt that. Sometimes depsite the rules in place, they get abused too much and since they cannot be honored, the privilege is taken away and everyone "suffers". This is why some public schools have uniforms. ALL the kids were punished b/c of a group that caused problems.

But that isn't considered unconstitutional even though the adults aka teachers, do not have to wear uniforms.

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

That wouldn't be a personal attack, now would it?

Was your comment? Then mine wasn't either...

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

...Basically, minors have no rights under the constitution....

Nevermind...

 

[luvsJack]

I survived it too, and my DN survived it 25 years later just as well. Our family believed that hanging out at the mall was a "near occasion of sin". Sure, you might start off just hanging out with your friends, but sooner or later it's going to end up with behavior that isn't so acceptable. Best case is simply annoying other patrons and employees, worst case is shoplifting or God forbid, something violent. I worked as a mall employee for years and we HATED Friday and Saturday nights because of all the teenagers and the havoc they created.

I guess I didn't realize just how critical hanging out at the mall is...and that there are simply no other options for these poor deprived children to socialize. I guess there aren't school sporting events or activities or church groups or friend's houses for them to go to....guess all of that is gone now and the only socialization left is the Almighty Mall.

OH BULL! I hung out at the mall from about 14 until I started driving and then we hung around by driving around the mall. (yes, round and round, meeting other teens in the process ) Didn't exactly challenge our intellect but it was innocent enough. And it NEVER led to "unacceptable" behavior.

My sons hung around the mall some weekends. They played in the arcade, ate in the food court, went to the movies when they had the money and they met girls. That was it (which was exactly what me and my friends did except the meeting girls part--for us it was boys). No leading to "unacceptable" behavior.

Its not something they have to do. There should be plenty of other choices of places to go. The skating rink seems to be picking back up in popularity here. But, it just doesn't seem like a fair rule.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

That's correct - it is legal, but it is also discriminatory, just legal discrimination. To use a current example, consider Augusta. It is one of the most prestigious country clubs in America, and it hosts the Masters golf tournament every spring. Black members are not allowed.

Legal? Yes. Discriminatory? You bet your behind it is...

Oh geez....

http://www.nytimes.com/1990/09/11/s...l-admits-first-black-member.html?pagewanted=1

In any case--they are a private club and while I may not agree that what they do is correct, I cannot argue that they are free to evaluate their membership as they see fit.

Preventing a 12 year old access to a mall is not tantamount to racism.

 

[PeterPan09]

Was your comment? Then mine wasn't either...

Oh Lord no...this is an INTERNET board...who takes this seriously???

Modern life is full of little inconveniences and if you really want to have a whine-a-thon, you can find discrimination all over the place. That point has been rather well illustrated by others on this thread.

 

[golfgal]

That's correct - it is legal, but it is also discriminatory, just legal discrimination. To use a current example, consider Augusta. It is one of the most prestigious country clubs in America, and it hosts the Masters golf tournament every spring. Black members are not allowed.

Legal? Yes. Discriminatory? You bet your behind it is...

Black members are allowed, but women are not. It is exclusionary, not discriminatory, as much as I would like to be a member of Augusta I respect their RIGHT to keep their membership as they want as they are a PRIVATE organization. There are many, many, many groups that are exclusionary that are NOT discriminatory. It is a fine line, I agree but the key here is PRIVATE. Not, if they were a city run golf course, paid for out of tax dollars, different story.

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

Like what? This is the next step because anything you list will not be as effective.

Actually, I listed an option that is MORE effective at meeting all of the goals in most areas, eliminating people of any age who just hang out at malls while encouraging customers of all ages to shop in safety. Hmmm, but that won't work for some reason as yet unexplained...

 

[golfgal]

Actually, I listed an option that is MORE effective at meeting all of the goals in most areas, eliminating people of any age who just hang out at malls while encouraging customers of all ages to shop in safety. Hmmm, but that won't work for some reason as yet unexplained...

How do you determine who is just 'hanging" out vs shopping???

 

[luvsJack]

So they let the kids run around crazy and didn't so much as do a darn thing but ban them?

I doubt that. Sometimes depsite the rules in place, they get abused too much and since they cannot be honored, the privilege is taken away and everyone "suffers". This is why some public schools have uniforms. ALL the kids were punished b/c of a group that caused problems.

But that isn't considered unconstitutional even though the adults aka teachers, do not have to wear uniforms.

Were the kids running around like crazy?

Maybe the problems there are worse than the problems here?

I just know what they do here and that it worked and wondered what would be the big problem with doing that.

I still think the age is too high. Telling a 16 or 17 year old they can work there but they can't shop there on weekend nights is just silly.

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

Black members are allowed, but women are not.

Sorry, you are correct. They sought out a black person or two to allow as members. They still ban women, and have an effective ban on black men.

It is exclusionary, not discriminatory, as much as I would like to be a member of Augusta I respect their RIGHT to keep their membership as they want as they are a PRIVATE organization...

LOL - call it whatever you want - it is wrong. I'll call it discriminatory because the exclusion is based on prejudice...

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Nevermind...

Versus getting all...bent out of shape over all of us being so obtuse, can you please cite any reference that proves your "opinion" to be factual. Thus far, most everything you thrown out--while very valid opinions, have little basis in fact.

You just rather spout off and tell us we being obtuse.

You claimed age discrimination was illegal--now you are saying there is such a thing as "legal discrimination".

You even claimed it was declared UNCONSTITUIONAL, but have failed to produce the court case that did just that.

It's hard to keep up when you flip back and forth between this isue being legal and illegal.

 

[FireDancer]

Where do you all suggest that teens DO hang out? Not (necessarily) being snarky, I really am wondering (looking for suggestions, in fact.)

Anywhere on the face of the Earth where they are not prohibited to do so. A friend's house, a public park (provided they are not breaking curfew laws), Boys and Girls clubs or other teen-friendly clubs.

But does she only have to go to the mall from 4-9 on Friday night and Saturday night? She can go by herself ANY OTHER TIME, except for these 10 hours/week.

This is the point that is getting missed. It isn't a ban, it is a restriction. If they need something they can go before the ban kicks in.

Minors are discriminated upon regularly and legally.

Age restrictions are not illegal but are both legally and constitutionally enforced. There is a restriction built right on into the constitution for voting. There are age restrictions that are legislated against gambling, drinking, driving, consenting to sex, entering a contract, and many other things. There are privately enforced age restrictions against many other things. For example, most race organizers have a minimum age for running a marathon, there is a minimum age for renting a car or hotel room. Having any age minimum is de facto age restriction just like limiting mall access.

Private industry, which is what we are dealing with here, has a wider range of discretion when dealing with constitutional restriction. Someone can be fired for saying something by a private institution that they can not be arrested for by the police or government. In this light a law restriction mall access may be deemed unconstitutional while a rule by the mall itself can not be. Rules do not carry the same weight as laws.

In the end it just is what it is. If enough people are outraged by the rule they will boycot the mall and the revenue will fall forcing the rule to be reversed. If they are not they will continue to shop under the current restrictions and life will go on.

 

[golfgal]

Nevermind...

Versus getting all...bent out of shape over all of us being so obtuse, can you please cite any reference that proves your "opinion" to be factual. Thus far, most everything you thrown out--while very valid opinions, have little basis in fact.

You just rather spout off and tell us we being obtuse.

You claimed age discrimination was illegal--now you are saying there is such a thing as "legal discrimination".

You even claimed it was declared UNCONSTITUIONAL, but have failed to produce the court case that did just that.

It's hard to keep up when you flip back and forth between this isue being legal and illegal.

What she said. Please quote specific passages in the actual CONSTITUTION that gives rights to minors.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Were the kids running around like crazy?

Maybe the problems there are worse than the problems here?

I just know what they do here and that it worked and wondered what would be the big problem with doing that.

I still think the age is too high. Telling a 16 or 17 year old they can work there but they can't shop there on weekend nights is just silly.

None of us really know. But it doesn't stop folks from calling the move extreme when they were not the mall management or shop store owners or shoppers having to deal with it.

Oh--and I could sell beer and wine in a grocery store at 17. But I wasn't allowed to buy it myself or drink it.

 

[golfgal]

Sorry, you are correct. They sought out a black person or two to allow as members. They still ban women, and have an effective ban on black men.

LOL - call it whatever you want - it is wrong. I'll call it discriminatory because the exclusion is based on prejudice...

See, it is NOT wrong--you don't have to agree with it but it doesn't make it wrong. Their club, their rules. This HAS been held up in courts of law all over the country and the supreme court.

Also, there are plenty of WHITE men they won't allow in either, like Bill Gates.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Age restrictions are not only illegal but are both legally and constitutionally enforced.

I think I know what you mean--but it sounds like you are calling it both illegal and legal at the same time.

 

[gina2000]

I think it's difficult to shepherd a group out the door and off the property. We have a pretty large group of teens who hang out side the movie entrance to the mall. They smoke, leaving their butts littering the ground. They curse which probably isn't an image the mall wishes to create. The thing that bothers me the most, though, is that these are not just teenagers but kids under the age of 21 who cannot hang in a bar.

Personally none of it would bother me except that they've taken to speeding up and down the ramps of the mall's garage. That's where my tolerance ends. It's dangerous for anyone walking to or from a car.

Having said that, my son does hang at the mall with his friends. He has specific instructions and hell hath no fury should he disregard those rules.

I think there is a fine line that needs to be walked here. Our mall choose to do nothing which I think is wrong. However, banning everyone probably isn't necessary. Enforcing rules probably would help. As it stands, security hangs outside with the kids and while that prevents fights, problems such as the ramp racing haven't been addressed and sorely need to be.

 

[PeterPan09]

OH BULL! I hung out at the mall from about 14 until I started driving and then we hung around by driving around the mall. (yes, round and round, meeting other teens in the process ) Didn't exactly challenge our intellect but it was innocent enough. And it NEVER led to "unacceptable" behavior.

My sons hung around the mall some weekends. They played in the arcade, ate in the food court, went to the movies when they had the money and they met girls. That was it (which was exactly what me and my friends did except the meeting girls part--for us it was boys). No leading to "unacceptable" behavior.

Its not something they have to do. There should be plenty of other choices of places to go. The skating rink seems to be picking back up in popularity here. But, it just doesn't seem like a fair rule.

Sorry, guess you're not Catholic. A "near occasion of sin" doesn't mean that the situation will absolutely, positively and in all cases lead to bad choices, it just means that the conditions are more favorable for bad choices.

I'm sure there are plenty of kids who hang out at the mall who never do anything untoward...but for my family that was just a waste of time. We had sports teams we played on, music lessons to take and practice for, friend's houses to visit and friends who hung out at our house. It seems sad to me that not being able to hang out at the mall on two nights a week without an adult is viewed as such a deprivation to today's teens.

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

How do you determine who is just 'hanging" out vs shopping???

Many shopping malls have loitering rules in place. The rules differ, but one mall about 30 minutes from here has guards walking in the common areas looking for this specifically. The security team warns the person (or group of people) suspected of just "hanging". They can then either move on or risk being told to leave. If they are told to leave and refuse, the police are called. There is no age limit - just a no loitering rule. There are no loitering signs posted everywhere, with the ordinance number and a list of fines. It works at that mall, and that is in NJ (where the kids can be a bit "problematic").

I am not saying that it can work everywhere, but I support this over discriminatory rules that sweep the good kids out the door with the bad. And I would never just drop my kids off someplace like this to hang with other kids, so this isn't personal. It is about doing the right thing for everyone, not doing something, anything, to stop a problem...