Major Policy Change in DVC/DCL Trade Policy UPDATE ON POST #193

[CarolAnnC]

To the nice folks who are thanking me above, you are all most welcome. I am a DVC member and I do love my ownership. I am also a DIS lover and will always be up front and notify folks here of any pertinent information that comes my way. It was purely accident that I ended up calling to make my switch on the first day of the DVC booking change. I am hoping to be able to write here one day that they have rectified the situation, and that things will be back to a more "normal" situation for those seeking to cruise on points.

We came back from Disney last night,and on the DVC tour they told us that we could go on a 5 day cruise inJuly family of 4 in2011 for 260 points total.Now reading the threads the whole sales pitch sounds wrong.We are debating wether are not to join. They also stated that the point values for the resorts and cruises havent changed in 15years and will be the same for ever is this true

That quote of points for the cruise may very well be the case. The key is that it is subject to availability, which has changed somewhat drastically over the past few days.

I would never recommend buying into DVC with cruising or trading out as the primary goal. DVC is perfect for Disney lovers who want to travel to WDW or DL. We also enjoy Vero Beach, as do many who visit Hilton Head, plus Hawaii is now coming on board for members, too.

The cruise is a trade out, and those are subject to change. Now that we see the rules of availability have changed, we will have to adapt our vacation planning. I still recommend DVC wholeheartedly, just not if DCL is your primary choice of vacation.

 

[Sammie]

To the nice folks who are thanking me above, you are all most welcome. I am a DVC member and I do love my ownership. I am also a DIS lover and will always be up front and notify folks here of any pertinent information that comes my way. It was purely accident that I ended up calling to make my switch on the first day of the DVC booking change. I am hoping to be able to write here one day that they have rectified the situation, and that things will be back to a more "normal" situation for those seeking to cruise on points

I think everyone appreciates the info. Since we can't always rely on DVC keeping us informed and must learn things the hard way through experience, we must rely on members such as yourself to fill in the blanks.

I think what is sometimes missed by some in these discussions, that those that question DVC and the management of it, are not haters of all things DVC, in fact it is because of our love for it, that we want things to be done on the up and up and for them to deliver what they promised and that includes their sales agents.

Have to wonder how many resales are from members that learned the hard way through experience how it really works.

 

[Deb & Bill]

Whatever your guide said was their sales spiel. All that matters is the POS. The only thing we're guaranteed is the right to try to make a reservation at our home resort(s). The ability to use our points to book Disney Cruise Line isn't guaranteed and can be discontinued at any time.

Seasoned members know that. But for someone looking to buy into DVC and sitting through the spiel, they hear "DVC... blah, blah, blah....DCL....blah, blah, blah....500 plus locations to use your points...blah, blah, blah". It's not until after they have signed on the dotted line, gotten and read the POS, that they finally get what is and is not guaranteed. They are hearing someone who represents Disney and DVC and Disney never lies or hardballs a sale.

And we have all heard about the members who curse the CM stating "I'm a DVC member. I'm entitled to ....."

I think what the PP was trying to point out is that just like DCL being a "perk" which may or may not be available, the HI resort being booked at 7 months by a non-resort owner is just a "perk" and not guaranteed. The word I got from Disney on the DCL moratorium was simply alot more people are booking cruises and they have reached their max allotted rooms. So it would seem to make sense that a HI resort might be viewed by people as a real great new place to try and there will be a rush of people trying to book it, which in turn means people who want to go who don't own there may find themselves out of luck when they run out of rooms... just like DCL. I am only assuming that Deb & Bill meant this, but it would seem to make sense.

That said, I think I lean towards agreeing with your observation. I would imagine there will be availability at Aulani, as long as you book as early as you can and avoid high seasons. The first year may be tough, but I guess we will just have to wait and see. I hope there is availability, we want to go!

We would buy into Aulani, but not really looking to go to Hawaii that often, so we would be back in the boat of owning points where we don't intend to go... which is clearly not the smartest thing to do

Exactly, Petraman. Thanks. I would think the people who own at Aulani would want to stay there for their first trip. And if that ties up availability at seven months out, there are going to be a lot of unhappy non-Aulani owners out there.

 

[Sammie]

I think that DVC is more of an illusion than improvement over the system you quote. The truth is that there is NO standard timeshare system any more. There are many different options, each unique. There are some generalizations one can list but there are many exceptions. I'd also quibble with the definition of owning and renting out on a limited basis as being a business.

I totally agree with the statment about illusion, and I think DVC pushes that.

 

[tinman]

My wife and I are the people who go to Disney world every 5-7 years.We are no sure if we should join the DVC.What we are looking at are the other resort accomodations in Hawaii or outside of the Disney resort network. We tend to go on a vacation every year and wonder if this is worth joining.financially it is not an issue,and we also were looking into RCI which i know Disney partners with.

 

[tinman]

Also would you recommend buying direct from DVC or a reseller

 

[Deb & Bill]

My wife and I are the people who go to Disney world every 5-7 years.We are no sure if we should join the DVC.What we are looking at are the other resort accomodations in Hawaii or outside of the Disney resort network. We tend to go on a vacation every year and wonder if this is worth joining.financially it is not an issue,and we also were looking into RCI which i know Disney partners with.

If you only go to WDW every 5-7 years, DVC would not be the best for you. There are cheaper timeshares out there that will give you what you want.

 

[Dean]

My wife and I are the people who go to Disney world every 5-7 years.We are no sure if we should join the DVC.What we are looking at are the other resort accomodations in Hawaii or outside of the Disney resort network. We tend to go on a vacation every year and wonder if this is worth joining.financially it is not an issue,and we also were looking into RCI which i know Disney partners with.

IMO your situation would not be a good one to buy DVC unless you were looking at non WDW DVC resorts most every year and I got the impression that was not your situation. I'd just rent from an owner or use cash for a DVC resort for the situation of once every 5-7 years. As noted, you might have been able to cruise in 2011 for 260 points for 4 for 5 days but it's subject to availability with a recent change highlighting the limitations. And it could either change dramatically or be eliminated in the future, possibly with no notice. Plus look at the value of 260 points plus buy in plus yearly fees. Even if you eliminate the time value of the buy in, that 5 day cruise would cost your somewhere in the neighborhood of $4K (value of the underlying points + yearly fees).

I totally agree with the illusion, and I think DVC pushes that.

Let me expand. I realize that many see DVC as different than a timeshare. I also realize that many of the events over the past 2-3 years have highlighted the fact that it is simply a nice timeshare that happens to be in a good location. Reservations have become increasingly more difficult for some situations, financial realities have been highlighted (valet parking), some have become disillusioned (IMO) because they had put DVC on a pedestal and now it has come back closer to earth.

 

[JimMIA]

...and then I remember "One of the most exciting ways to use your points other than your home resort at WDW is to book an amazing Disney Cruise!"

Yep. You know what's ironic? Recently at the BLT meetings, they've really been pumping using your points in the "network" of options outside of DVC resorts themselves. It's almost comical that they now seem to be eliminating probably the most popular "network" option.

If they are still using cruising as an alleged "benefit" to sell DVC, I think that might be a fruitful deceptive trade practice claim for someone who believed the tale.

Or possibly a good thing to complain to the Florida DPR Timeshare Division about if they are still promising a cruising option when, in fact, no such option currently exists for more than a year.

 

[Cmbar]

Also would you recommend buying direct from DVC or a reseller

If you decide to buy DVC (which I don't recommend if you aren't avid Disney WORLD goers) Unless you want to buy Hawaii I would recommend buying resale. Of course I am a bit bias right now since I am ticked at DVC but we bought at BLT through Disney ONLY because they didn't have resales yet. But I wish I had waited and saved the thousands of dollars I could have saved. Then maybe I could pay for my Dream Cruise I was going to take before they took their "perk" away for this year.

You will have to do a lot research about DVC before jumping in. We go to Disney every year and have for the last 8 or so years. We bought because, well it seemed logical. But now we are a bit tired of the same ole parks so we wanted to branch out with our points but it isn't easy to do anything but book your home resort at 11 months and even that has to be done right away. I am very dissappointed in the "actual workings" of DVC. When we bought DVC they changed the point charts on us within a few months. Which we were told NEVER happened. I asked three times and was told they don't change the point charts.

To hear that they are STILL telling people that makes me crazy.


I can understand maybe you not getting the most up to date information about the Cruise, but to still be telling people the point charts don't change after they have changed them the last two years in a row is and OUTRIGHT LIE. No "sales spiel" it is a lie to actually say that in a presentation. Boy that ticks me off.

 

[Dean]

Yep. You know what's ironic? Recently at the BLT meetings, they've really been pumping using your points in the "network" of options outside of DVC resorts themselves. It's almost comical that they now seem to be eliminating probably the most popular "network" option.

If they are still using cruising as an alleged "benefit" to sell DVC, I think that might be a fruitful deceptive trade practice claim for someone who believed the tale.

Or possibly a good thing to complain to the Florida DPR Timeshare Division about if they are still promising a cruising option when, in fact, no such option currently exists for more than a year.

Given that it's still an option, that it clearly says subject to availability, that the info clearly states it can be changed or eliminated at any point and that the paperwork acknowledges that verbal representations are not binding; I see no traction to such a complaint. In terms of the complaints they get, this wouldn't even be a molehill compared to a mountain, more a grain of sand.

 

[Sammie]

IMO your situation would not be a good one to buy DVC unless you were looking at non WDW DVC resorts most every year and I got the impression that was not your situation. I'd just rent from an owner or use cash for a DVC resort for the situation of once every 5-7 years. As noted, you might have been able to cruise in 2011 for 260 points for 4 for 5 days but it's subject to availability with a recent change highlighting the limitations. And it could either change dramatically or be eliminated in the future, possibly with no notice. Plus look at the value of 260 points plus buy in plus yearly fees. Even if you eliminate the time value of the buy in, that 5 day cruise would cost your somewhere in the neighborhood of $4K (value of the underlying points + yearly fees).

Let me expand. I realize that many see DVC as different than a timeshare. I also realize that many of the events over the past 2-3 years have highlighted the fact that it is simply a nice timeshare that happens to be in a good location. Reservations have become increasingly more difficult for some situations, financial realities have been highlighted (valet parking), some have become disillusioned (IMO) because they had put DVC on a pedestal and now it has come back closer to earth.

I agree Dean, but for years, DVC put themselves on that pedestal as a very good marketing tool. Their mantra was they were not just your average timeshare, they were different and they were better. For years you would never hear DVC even mention the word timeshare.

For many if they saw DVC as being different, better, put them on pedestal, it is because that is what was sold to them by DVC.

More and more it seems to be just smoke and mirrors. I am not saying what they do offer is a bad product, because its not, but it is not what they sell you.

 

[Cmbar]

Let me expand. I realize that many see DVC as different than a timeshare. I also realize that many of the events over the past 2-3 years have highlighted the fact that it is simply a nice timeshare that happens to be in a good location. Reservations have become increasingly more difficult for some situations, financial realities have been highlighted (valet parking), some have become disillusioned (IMO) because they had put DVC on a pedestal and now it has come back closer to earth.

EDITED...yeah what Sammie said!!! Guess we think the same thing about DVC sales staff!

I agree Dean, but I believe the ones putting Disney on a pedestal was Disney sales staff. I went to four different presentations because my DH didn't want to buy. I also sat in a presentation just this past January for my sister and BIL. For the first three presentations they said the same thing about the charts this last time they said the charts won't change, but I challenged him because they had just changed them last year. I was dissappointed that I had to challenge him (he did come clean and mention something about adjustments). I wanted my Dsis to buy in so I didn't highlight all these recent problems but now I am really dissappointed I encouraged them. They at least bought resale and saved a ton of money.....

But today my Dsis called all excited because my nephew got engaged today and she was all excited because she has a ton of points for next year and wanted to book a cruise for them for their honeymoon sometime next August (they haven't set the actual date). I was so sad since I had to tell her she won't be able to do that for them. She bought DVC points this year and has yet to use them and now she can't go on the April cruise with us or give her son a cruise for a wedding present. I know this is not DVC fault or problem since they didn't promise us they can cruise, but it is still dissappointing. Sorry I know I am venting a lot today.

 

[Brian Noble]

I totally agree with the statment about illusion, and I think DVC pushes that.

Every timeshare, everywhere, is selling exactly this. They sell mostly to people on vacation, and they are selling the promise of bottling that feeling forever. The only difference between DVC and everyone else is that Disney maintains the illusion better than most.

Anyone who thought differently was most likely snorting pixie dust. But, they wanted to believe. They are just as culpable.

 

[Goofy DVC]

Well I've read 20 great pages of posts, information and insghts. For me I try to keep things simple. I've learned 2 things:
1.) DVC membership has grown to be so big that it is becoming impossible for DVD to maintain all the perks. The membership can "flood" a perk causing a crisis for Disney. Their response seems to be to eliminate that perk. I'm sure there will be more to follow.
2.) Disney's communication regarding these issues STINKS.

 

[tjkraz]

"Every great getaway has a moment when you want to pack it up and stay. That's how I ended up with a timeshare in Port Arthur, Texas." - Jack Donaghy

 

[Sammie]

Well I've read 20 great pages of posts, information and insghts. For me I try to keep things simple. I've learned 2 things:
1.) DVC membership has grown to be so big that it is becoming impossible for DVD to maintain all the perks. The membership can "flood" a perk causing a crisis for Disney. Their response seems to be to eliminate that perk. I'm sure there will be more to follow.
2.) Disney's communication regarding these issues STINKS.

Well said

 

[tinman]

This is why I waited for the last day of my trip to take the tour.So I could get honest opinions from DVC members,without them bothering me all week. We vacations somewhere every year,but right now we are Disneyed out for a while,and the kids will be in college in the next three years.So we are looking foward to vacationing without them. Thanks for all the responses everyone!!!!

 

[adminjedi]

Well I've read 20 great pages of posts, information and insghts. For me I try to keep things simple. I've learned 2 things:
1.) DVC membership has grown to be so big that it is becoming impossible for DVD to maintain all the perks. The membership can "flood" a perk causing a crisis for Disney. Their response seems to be to eliminate that perk. I'm sure there will be more to follow.
2.) Disney's communication regarding these issues STINKS.

I think in regard to your point 1., you have learned what a lot of people commenting on this disboard think, not necessarily what is true of DVC.
There are a lot of assumptions at work. We do know that some perks have been discontinued over the years, and we know the DCL perk was told to a few members as currently on hold. How do we know the "why" is due to membership size? Maybe it was due to the large number of "free cruises" with the purchase incentives? My guess, it is most likely an economic decision having nothing to do with size of DVC membership. Also, apparently it is not discontinued, but on hold.

Regarding communication...they have communicated the change to those calling in. They are slow on posting the change on the website.

 

[tjkraz]

Have to wonder how many resales are from members that learned the hard way through experience how it really works.

Probably not many. DVC's overall approval ratings have remained quite strong over the years. The opinions voiced here aren't terribly indicative of those shared by the bulk of membership. To many people, DVC is just something which gives them the ability to pick up the phone and book a reservation once per year. It's not something to be dissected. I don't think most owners spend their time critiquing the sales staff or contemplating ulterior motives of the program's president.

Yet even here, where people seem to be most critical, it's rare that we hear of anyone selling contracts simply because of some disenchantment with DVC management.

I'm sure some have decided that DVC isn't a good match for them but DVC will never be all things to all people. The sales staff can only do so much to point people in the right direction, and obviously they have a vested interest in pointing toward a particular direction.

I agree Dean, but for years, DVC put themselves on that pedestal as a very good marketing tool. Their mantra was they were not just your average timeshare, they were different and they were better. For years you would never hear DVC even mention the word timeshare.

For many if they saw DVC as being different, better, put them on pedestal, it is because that is what was sold to them by DVC.

More and more it seems to be just smoke and mirrors. I am not saying what they do offer is a bad product, because its not, but it is not what they sell you.

You know, I've read this at least 5 times and am really not sure what you are trying to say.

Regardless of whether DVC thinks it is "better" or portrays itself as "better", it's up to the customer to decide whether it really is "better" or not. Travel habits and expectations vary from one individual to the next and folks have always had to decide for themselves whether the match is correct or not.

And personally I still don't see DVC's marketing tactics as being any different than they were a decade ago. Sure it's aggravating to hear about outright lies during a sales pitch but the occurrence is hardly new. On the boards alone we've always had reports of Guides making questionable statements. People were told they could buy any resort and "easily" book elsewhere at 7 months. Buyers were given every impression that they could get BWV Standard, BCV or OKW Grand Villas at 7 months. No attempt made by the Guide to illustrate the impact of higher Vero dues. For years we've heard variations of "points can never change" and it's just in the last 2 years that those comments have come home to roost.

Well I've read 20 great pages of posts, information and insghts. For me I try to keep things simple. I've learned 2 things:
1.) DVC membership has grown to be so big that it is becoming impossible for DVD to maintain all the perks. The membership can "flood" a perk causing a crisis for Disney. Their response seems to be to eliminate that perk. I'm sure there will be more to follow.
2.) Disney's communication regarding these issues STINKS.

Not sure there is really any evidence of #1. Valet parking was effectively taken away by a third party and in this case we still don't really know why DCL bookings have been curbed. And whatever the cause, DCL hasn't been discontinued altogether.

Off the top of my head, I can't really think of any other perks which have been eliminated because they were too popular.

I do agree with #2--as would most people--although I think it's pretty obvious why they don't go out of their way to highlight negative changes.