LOVE or HATE FP+ Anyone's mind been changed ??

It's a supply thing. To take out that 1st hour, takes out 10% or so of the Fast Passes. As to what benefit to schedule so early, I think to Jimmy it would be a benefit. He saw 75-min waits to TT at 9:30!
If Epcot is open 9-9 then losing one hour of FP+ is not 10%. Besides getting FP+ for just after rope drop doesn't help visitors. They might not know that of course.

Universal has nothing to do with this conversation in my opinion. If you would like to bring it in no problem. We can compare Disney to a park that is growing attendance at a much faster rate and has shown what building new attractions at regular intervals can accomplish!
I hope that Universal can be left out of the discussion. What Universal does should have no influence on Disney. Or does it? :magnify:
 
Very true. Yet I don't think there is an unlimited supply of new less-educated or pollyannaish guests to support that attendance growth for years to come. And with increased costs come increased expectations. The effects don't manifest themselves all at once, but more like a ball of twine that slowly unravels over time.

Yes, Disney is a business. So I can't help but think what the hot topics on these boards would be right now if that business hadn't decided to spend upwards of $2B on MM+/FP+ and another $5B on a park on the other side of the world but instead put some of that love back into Epcot, Hollywood Studios, even more new attractions at MK, and double or triple the Avatar effort at AK.

But they didn't. Because they are a business and they've decided to use our dollars to get even more dollars from other guests halfway around the globe.

.
They are business that can make bad business decisions like any other business. Although on these boards many would never admit that they could make a bad decision.
 
Very true. Yet I don't think there is an unlimited supply of new less-educated or pollyannaish guests to support that attendance growth for years to come. And with increased costs come increased expectations. The effects don't manifest themselves all at once, but more like a ball of twine that slowly unravels over time.

Yes, Disney is a business. So I can't help but think what the hot topics on these boards would be right now if that business hadn't decided to spend upwards of $2B on MM+/FP+ and another $5B on a park on the other side of the world but instead put some of that love back into Epcot, Hollywood Studios, even more new attractions at MK, and double or triple the Avatar effort at AK.

But they didn't. Because they are a business and they've decided to use our dollars to get even more dollars from other guests halfway around the globe.

.

Why would it require these types of guests?

And once again, the money has been spent. Whether or not you avail yourself to it is up to you. But the toothpaste isn't going back in the tube.
 
They are business that can make bad business decisions like any other business. Although on these boards many would never admit that they could make a bad decision.

Where is evidence of,
what is in your opinion, a bad decision?

The vocal dissenters on this board?
 

Dh and I just returned from WDW. I will give a rundown of how our trip worked with FP+. Dh went early with a friend to attend all of the Daytona races and I joined him on Sunday.

I pre-booked FP at the 60 day mark for the days I would be there. This trip wasn't about being in the parks all day. We had other things we were doing during the morning(looking at houses) and we went to the parks in the late afternoon.

Saturday(21st) DH calls and says they want to go to the MK that night, but they won't get there until 9:00pm. MK was open til 1:00am so they decided to go and asked if I could get any FP for them. Everything but SDMT and A&E were available. Well, I'm guessing the parades were out, but I didn't really pay attention to those. I got what they wanted and they were able to ride other rides as well as watch Wishes and MSEP.

Sunday I had 3 FP for myself and I was meeting my mom for lunch at Liberty Tree. She's not much on rides, so I didn't book anything for the two of us. We only rode TTA and COP(see, not much on rides). I did check my app while watching the afternoon parade and HM, POTC and Buzz were all 25min. JC was 30, I believe. I didn't check much else, so I can't comment on other wait times.

Monday we had FP for TSMM and TOT already booked. We got there about 6:00 and TSMM was 60 min standby and TOT was 100. RNR was less, I believe it was 45 min. We used our FP and watched F!. After F!, we rode GMR. It was about 10 min. Basically, we waited through one cycle. Muppets and Star Tours had short waits, but TOT stayed long. I will also add that it was evening EMH, so it wasn't like the park cleared out during F!. and they added a second showing. I'm not sure why TOT had such a long wait as compared to RNR and TSMM.

Tuesday we had FP booked for SDMT at 5:00 and dinner at Tony's at 6:45. We came out of dinner and watched Wishes by the flagpole. MSEP went by while we were eating. We then used our FP for PP and Buzz. We also rode HM, POTC, Philharmagic, TTA and Splash. We were popping around the park enjoying the evening and I really didn't pay attention to wait times. I did change our plan for Buzz while in the park. We originally had a FP for Splash, but realized the wait was only 5 min so I changed our 7:40 FP for Splash to Buzz(also at 7:40).

Wednesday we went to AK in the morning. We got there around 10:30 and KS had a 20 min. wait, so we rode that and then headed to EE. Waited 20 min. for EE and then had Flame Tree from one of the kiosks. We watched TTBAB and then headed out. Dinosaur and PW also had 20 min. waits. We had 3 FP booked for Epcot, but only used our TT at 5:10. We walked in and SE was walk on so we rode it rather than waiting for our FP. Rode TT and headed to WS for dinner. We had fish and chips from Yorkshire County and sat back in England and chatted for an hour or so. We decided to head out around 8:30 and checked the board for Soarin. 10 min--WooHoo! We rode Soarin and then left. I checked the board when we arrived and Living with the Land was 10 min, JIYI was 5 or 10, I don't remember, Living Seas was 10 and Universe of Energy said open. Soarin was 60 min. when we arrived and TT was 30 min. when we went over to use our FP.

We also decided to change our plans for Thursday while waiting for the bus to Epcot. We switched from HS to MK for the next morning. I booked Space at 9:15, PP at 10:15 and Buzz at 11:15. SDMT, A&E and the parades were booked.

Thursday we went to MK. It was early EMH, but we got there around 8:15 and went to Starbucks. We chilled in front of the castle in the new area they just opened and headed into Adventureland when it opened. We rode JC, POTC, HM, IASW, TTA and our 3 FP. We were finished by 11:00, so we headed to Celebration to look around and have lunch. We also did some shopping at the Emporium on the way out.

The parks never felt empty and yet it was manageable. I know this isn't how most people tour and it isn't our normal vacation, but it shows how we used FP for our trip.
 
Universal has nothing to do with this conversation in my opinion. If you would like to bring it in no problem. We can compare Disney to a park that is growing attendance at a much faster rate and has shown what building new attractions at regular intervals can accomplish!

Travel is way up compared to the last 7 year in all venues, so its not just Disney related.

You can place some of the blame on Universal for building up new attractions, in Disney crowd levels increasing.

Disney other parks need a revamp which would increase crowd levels.

I see it as a non winning for increase in crowd levels and the people that like to attend Disney regularly
 
If Epcot is open 9-9 then losing one hour of FP+ is not 10%. Besides getting FP+ for just after rope drop doesn't help visitors. They might not know that of course.


I hope that Universal can be left out of the discussion. What Universal does should have no influence on Disney. Or does it? :magnify:

It is brought up time and again. Let's not pretend otherwise.

Still agree in closing the first hour to FP and making it standby only.
 
Why would it require these types of guests?

I was responding to PG's comment about needing those new guests to replace disillusioned regulars.

And once again, the money has been spent. Whether or not you avail yourself to it is up to you. But the toothpaste isn't going back in the tube.

I suppose meh, what's done is done would be the rebuttal for some but for others those decisions indicate a broader direction.


.
 
Doesn't really matter to me. It was my experience and I didn't get any sort of refund because of it. When we entered the line it said 15 minutes. Without any operational breakdown, we barely moved for the first 15 minutes as FP people whizzed by. After the 25 minutes one of 5 the people in the group in front of us stepped out of line to go back to see what the posted wait was and it had jumped to 80 minutes. But we were stuck. Keep waiting or try later. But would the wait ever creep down below the 45 minutes we figured we had left? Bottom line is that the "one-two" punch at RD is harder now with FP people passing you. It didn't used to be this way. This is the new normal. Maybe not the wait we had. But no more 10 minutes either.

I had a similar experience, Saturday of MLK weekend. We had FPs for MK that evening and wanted to try TT and Soarin at RD before heading to France to try out the new bakery. We were there prob. 5 minutes before 9 and by the time we got to TT it was posted 20 minutes I believe. We waited much longer, now I can't remember the exact time but at least 45 minutes. So we skipped Soarin completely that morning.

Next time I will try Soarin first, or just avoid those rides if we don't have FP. I don't mind hitting Epcot several different days (it's our arrival day tradition - TT is our very first ride) for a shorter amount of time, I have found that I prefer it that way. If I had a short trip with one Epcot day it would be more of a bother for sure.
 
I was responding to PG's comment about needing those new guests to replace disillusioned regulars.



I suppose meh, what's done is done would be the rebuttal for some but for others those decisions indicate a broader direction.


.

Interesting description, then. Are you Pollyanna when travel to new destinations?

It just seems to be a dismissive description of what this of guest it would have to be to replace the disillusioned guest given the character traits of Pollyanna.
 
Interesting description, then. Are you Pollyanna when travel to new destinations?

It just seems to be a dismissive description of what this of guest it would have to be to replace the disillusioned guest given the character traits of Pollyanna.

I don't want to get bogged down in semantics or what you think I might have meant. PG described some guests as "just don't care" and I chose to describe those same guests as pollyannaish (a person characterized by irrepressible optimism and a tendency to find good in everything). That's all. If you don't like the word I used feel free to substitute any other word to describe someone who is simply happy to be at WDW because they are at WDW.


.
 
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They are business that can make bad business decisions like any other business. Although on these boards many would never admit that they could make a bad decision.

Of course they can make bad decisions, but I think you'll always find people who disagree on what is bad. Some people loved the Hat, some hated it. Some are psyched about Avatar, some think it's dumb. Liking FP+ is just that, liking FP+. It doesn't extrapolate to loving EVERYTHING.
 
Doesn't really matter to me. It was my experience and I didn't get any sort of refund because of it. When we entered the line it said 15 minutes. Without any operational breakdown, we barely moved for the first 15 minutes as FP people whizzed by. After the 25 minutes one of 5 the people in the group in front of us stepped out of line to go back to see what the posted wait was and it had jumped to 80 minutes. But we were stuck. Keep waiting or try later. But would the wait ever creep down below the 45 minutes we figured we had left? Bottom line is that the "one-two" punch at RD is harder now with FP people passing you. It didn't used to be this way. This is the new normal. Maybe not the wait we had. But no more 10 minutes either.

You are really illustrating my point about the difference between something that is a complaint or relaying an individual experience and something that is helpful to others trying to plan their trips.

I understand that what is the exception and what is the norm doesn't matter to you because that was your experience and it affected your day. But, to use your one example to say that this is the new normal doesn't follow either. Someone who has a trip coming up might like to know if this is normal or not. Which is why I posed the question and invited others to weigh in with their experiences.

If your experience is the norm, I would consider alternatives, like getting to TT before 9:20, using the single rider line if that's an option, or going to Soarin first (because maybe the line doesn't grow as quickly there) and using your FP for TT instead. Your original post didn't say if you arrived at TT after doing Soarin first, but your reference to "the one-two punch" suggests that maybe you did. That piece of information might also be helpful to someone trying to plan a morning at Epcot.

On his board the other day, Josh from easywdw commented on a day at Epcot on the Saturday of President's Day weekend (Valentine's Day). Touring Plans had that as a crowd level 9 day at Epcot, and the park opened at 8 AM (regular opening, not EMH). He said:

"You almost never see 8am regular opens at Epcot – they are almost exclusively reserved for the week between Christmas Day and New Year’s Day, but we unexpectedly got three this past weekend. It does again hammer home how important those early morning hours are to efficient touring. Soarin’ is under 25 minutes through 9:30am, which is right around when waits would take off with a regular 9am open. Test Track is posted at 30 minutes from opening, but actual waits would be under 15 minutes for the first hour. Afternoon waits are rough – getting through Future World by 11am and moving up to World Showcase as soon as possible is the key to a successful day with short waits. Waits do drop off again in the evening at most attractions, but note the rides that close at 7pm." (Emphasis is mine).

That may not be a typical day because of the 8 AM opening, but it is also a day with one of the larger crowds of the year. The same article also described the crowds on Wednesday, February 18, a day with a 9 AM opening, but also crowd level 9. On that day the posted wait times for both TT and Soarin were at 70 minutes by 9:30, though we don't know if the gates actually opened a little early, as they often do on crowded days.

I think most people here consider Josh to be reasonable and objective, and many use his crowd calendars to decide which park to attend on a given day. If anyone is going to do that, it would seem to make sense to also follow his advice about how to tour the park once you get there. The information in this article, and your specific example, does nothing to change my advice for someone who wants to ride both TT and Soarin on the same day: get a FP for one of them and be there at RD and go directly to the other one. If you want a second ride on one of them, your best bet is to go to Soarin first and go directly from there to TT and ride single rider.

So, while recognizing your experience and how it affected your day, I still have the question about what is normal.
 
Honestly, I originally dreaded it, have since accepted it, and now will be trying it for the first time. I am really bummed about the "loss of freedom of choice" so many others have noted in this thread. I just think it kills the spontaneity we enjoyed once we learned the old system, and the flexibility we had to change our minds and still be on equal footing with everyone else at Rope Drop the following day. I DO feel like this is the most planned of any of our trips out of necessity for prime FP+ choices. I really hope I am not sorry about the park day choices I made two months in advance, once I have been there for four or five days.

I have hated the process of making FP+ reservations, but now have 10 days fully booked. I was able to get everything I wanted at a very close time to where I wanted it, with exception of A&E, which I was able to get at 60+4 (party of 2), but really had to adjust a few things to make the time slot work for us, as it completely made us come up with a plan B for how to spend our entire day.

Despite all this, I am going into it optimistically, with the hope that the decreased walking and ability to more specifically target return times will add to the vacation, even if I have to be far more rigid in keeping to the advance plan.
 
Interesting description, then. Are you Pollyanna when travel to new destinations?

It just seems to be a dismissive description of what this of guest it would have to be to replace the disillusioned guest given the character traits of Pollyanna.
I admit to being a bit of a Pollyanna when I go to new places. I do plan but I also leave time to just be an ignorant tourist and explore. I love it!
 
get a FP for one of them and be there at RD and go directly to the other one. If you want a second ride on one of them, your best bet is to go to Soarin first and go directly from there to TT and ride single rider.


This was the plan for fp- too.

Get a runner to get fp- for soaring and then hop in TT line, Ride both and get fp- for TT. The only difference is You only get one FP+ for that tier group. So its one and done unless you are willing to wait in line.

I always remember feeling sorry for people that slept in or didn't understand FP- didn't cost extra.
 
Here is my answer.

I hated FP+ on my first several trips when crowd levels were low/moderate. But I loved it on my Christmas trip when the crowd level was at its highest. So, maybe I did change my mind a bit.

Maybe I have even said this before in this thread, but I can't remember because the thread is so long. :rotfl:
 
When the sole focus becomes nothing but money/greed there is a definite problem with it. This whole new system has cutback quite a few guests abilities to do what they used to and caused much more work to achieve what could have been done much easier before. Oh yes by the way now it will cost yet more, as tickets just went up again. You think the new system is great. I think it sucks and will ultimately send many long time customers to the sidelines. I personally think it was a big mistake and money would have been far better spent on attractions.

Everyone has an opinion and I don't think the statement that the sole focus is making money is true- although even if it was, making money is achieved by making a product people want and delivering it in a satisfactory manner. So far, there's no sign they were wrong. Yes, it has cut back some guests abilities and enhanced others, just as paper fp did.

Universal's prices went up as well. I see no one complaining here when the same one day ticket is nearly identical and when you add in their pricey pass, it's much more. Plus, they force you to buy tickets to both parks to fully enjoy the biggest draw in the park- yet no one complains about that either, so don't use the price increase as a reason to call them money hungry.

Time will tell if you're right, so far you are not. But again, constantly saying the same thing over and over and over again doesn't change a thing.
 





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