LOVE or HATE FP+ Anyone's mind been changed ??

So, Tuesday through Thursday, you would essentially send all of your offsite guests to your competition, complete with a thank you card and a bow on top? That is basically what you would be doing with this policy. Somehow, I think that strategically strengthening your competition is not the most sound business plan.

Sometimes you can't get'em all. And sometimes you shouldn't try.

It never ceases to amaze me how people here both ignore and are totally devoted to the fundamental problem (from a guest standpoint) at WDW. There are too many people at the parks. Yet whenever anyone suggests anything that might limit the number of visitors, people balk louder than they do at any other suggestion.

I understand that the capacity for the MK is about 100K. But while they might be able to physically accommodate the crowds, the rides can only take so many people at a time; the more people in the park, the longer the wait times. FP- came out when there were 14,000 fewer people a day at the MK, a nearly 30 percent increase. You can complain about FP+ all you want, but in just one year between 2012 and 2013 attendance is up a million people -- that's an extra 2600 people a day -- and as long as that number keeps growing, there isn't a system that will solve the fundamental problem.

Fps are hard to get because too many people want them. FP- went away because as the crowds got bigger, more people developed touring strategies to maximize their use. So RD became the catch all, and as more and more people came to RD because it eventually would become the only way to get FPs for the headliners if they didn't change it. So now you have to be up at midnight to get the headliners because there are so many people who want them. 86,000 people in the resorts all able to book up to 70 days out. Anna and Elsa take a minute for each greet -- that's 60 an hour, 900 in a 15 hour day (maybe 1800 since I think they've got it split now). You figure each party is four -- that's 7200 out of 52,000 people who can physically meet the girls. Even if you double it four A&Es, there aren't enough passes to accommodate all the people. Even the rides -- 7DMT has 12 people in a car (I think), a car comes every 15 seconds between loading and unloading and you're at 43,000 potential rides in a 15-hour day. On an average day there are 52,000 people there. So there are going to be lines no matter what management system they choose. The only way to reduce the lines is to reduce the number of people attending.

The problem is, I don't know what the ticket price increase cut-off number would be. I think you'd get plenty of takers at $200 a ticket, but doing that might diminish your resort stays, and the resorts are a fixed cost -- you have to pay for them regardless. So why not maximize the profits from the resorts and increase the benefits for staying in them by giving WDW visitors what they really, really want -- smaller crowds.

As for your question, though, Disney would still get the people -- you don't come to Orlando and not go to Disney, unless you've already done it. But they might create more demand for the resorts which leads to higher revenues from them and those revenues would more than offset the lost attendance.
 
Wow. We'd have ourselves some zombies the next day. That would be an Epcot Sunday... we'd have to saunter in there at 11 or 12
Epcot is the perfect park to go to the day after closing a park down the night before. If you sleep in and arrive between 11:00 and noon, you get there when World Showcase is just opening and are not behind the crowd curve at all. A leisurely day in WS is a perfect way for zombies to spend the day. RD is great. But it doesn't have to be an everyday approach.
 
So why not maximize the profits from the resorts and increase the benefits for staying in them by giving WDW visitors what they really, really want -- smaller crowds.

So based on your idea, what would be the benefit of staying at a Disney resort from Friday-Monday? :confused3
 
It never ceases to amaze me how people here both ignore and are totally devoted to the fundamental problem (from a guest standpoint) at WDW. There are too many people at the parks. Yet whenever anyone suggests anything that might limit the number of visitors, people balk louder than they do at any other suggestion.

I think the problem is not that we don't recognize that for us, as guests, a crowded park is not the best thing. I think it's that your way to solve it isn't something Disney would ever consider doing. They're not unhappy that their parks are packed.
 

I wrote this a couple of weeks ago on another thread and got yelled at,but if I ran the resorts, I'd close the parks to non-resort guests Tues-Thursday for all but the peak times. There'd still be plenty of people (since there are 90,000 in the resorts at any given time. If you trust TEA, then the MK averaged 52,000 people a day last year (and if you don't trust TEA and want to say that Disney doesn't release attendance numbers, then I don't know what to say to you). Of that 52,000, roughly 34,000 are resort guests. The average daily attendance in 2002 (just about the time FP- debuted) was 38,000, so everyone missing the old days would have a shot at them by staying on site. Then staying on site would be an appreciable benefit and Disney could charge more for their rooms. I don't think you need to tier the levels by resort category -- just scan their bands when they come, and if they're a resort guest, they get in. if not, they don't. I've run out the math -- Disney could charge $50/room on average and that would cover the cost of the 18,000 admissions they'd be missing out on for those days.

You'd still have the off-site guests and locals able to attend Friday-Monday, during the peak the times (June-July-August, late December, Presidents week, Spring Break and Easter). Lots of people would be pissed because it was elitist and unfair, but I think it's the best way to both enhance the experience for the guests who have given them the most loyalty (by staying on site). Because so many guests are from the resorts, Disney really can't offer them more fast passes or FotL, because logistically it wouldn't work -- if 2/3s of your guests have Front access, those lines on the headliners would be longer than the other standby.

The problems with everything at Disney is crowds. The only thing that improves the experience at Disney is by reducing crowds.
Your math doesn't work. Assuming that there are 90,000 people on site on a given night, you have to subtract out the number that are checking out/in that day who will not be going to parks, then subtract out the number of people who are attending conferences and won't be going to parks. Then subtract out the number of people who are taking a break from the parks that day. Take the remaining number and divide it among the 4 parks and you'd be left with parks that look like ghost towns. E-Ticket nights at the MK were great. And so are EMHs. But look at how few people that is. It's a lose-lose. Disney parks are empty and all other Orlando attractions are filled. Look. I'd love it if WDW closed the gates at crowd levels lower than they currently use for "code red". But that is a far cry from having 10,000 people in AK and 25,000 people in the MK.
 
Sometimes you can't get'em all. And sometimes you shouldn't try.

It never ceases to amaze me how people here both ignore and are totally devoted to the fundamental problem (from a guest standpoint) at WDW. There are too many people at the parks. Yet whenever anyone suggests anything that might limit the number of visitors, people balk louder than they do at any other suggestion.

I understand that the capacity for the MK is about 100K. But while they might be able to physically accommodate the crowds, the rides can only take so many people at a time; the more people in the park, the longer the wait times. FP- came out when there were 14,000 fewer people a day at the MK, a nearly 30 percent increase. You can complain about FP+ all you want, but in just one year between 2012 and 2013 attendance is up a million people -- that's an extra 2600 people a day -- and as long as that number keeps growing, there isn't a system that will solve the fundamental problem.

Fps are hard to get because too many people want them. FP- went away because as the crowds got bigger, more people developed touring strategies to maximize their use. So RD became the catch all, and as more and more people came to RD because it eventually would become the only way to get FPs for the headliners if they didn't change it. So now you have to be up at midnight to get the headliners because there are so many people who want them. 86,000 people in the resorts all able to book up to 70 days out. Anna and Elsa take a minute for each greet -- that's 60 an hour, 900 in a 15 hour day (maybe 1800 since I think they've got it split now). You figure each party is four -- that's 7200 out of 52,000 people who can physically meet the girls. Even if you double it four A&Es, there aren't enough passes to accommodate all the people. Even the rides -- 7DMT has 12 people in a car (I think), a car comes every 15 seconds between loading and unloading and you're at 43,000 potential rides in a 15-hour day. On an average day there are 52,000 people there. So there are going to be lines no matter what management system they choose. The only way to reduce the lines is to reduce the number of people attending.

The problem is, I don't know what the ticket price increase cut-off number would be. I think you'd get plenty of takers at $200 a ticket, but doing that might diminish your resort stays, and the resorts are a fixed cost -- you have to pay for them regardless. So why not maximize the profits from the resorts and increase the benefits for staying in them by giving WDW visitors what they really, really want -- smaller crowds.

As for your question, though, Disney would still get the people -- you don't come to Orlando and not go to Disney, unless you've already done it. But they might create more demand for the resorts which leads to higher revenues from them and those revenues would more than offset the lost attendance.

I don't ignore the "problem" of an overabundance of guests.

I disagree with the solution of turning it it a members only country club.

The solution to high demand and short supply is to increase supply or raise prices. As capacity is finite, and increasing that capacity involves more than producing extra widgets, the solution is to raise admission prices.

The problem with this--folks complain, but then agree to pay that higher price.

But turning the entirety if the Disney parks to resort guests only, would be such bad PR over exclusivity, that it would be a double whammy--reducing guests during the week per your suggestion and on the weekends due to backlash.

Bad business all the way around.
 
I didn't read all 38 pages but did read the original post and wanted to chime in now that I've done both types of FPs. This is my opinion.

The old FP system required me to be there at park opening in order to maximize my FPs and I felt I needed to be in the park until lunch to get my use. Leave in the afternoon and return in the evening.

The new system is more relaxing. I still try to get my FPs for as early in the day as I can but the pressure is off. We use our evenings to stroll through EPCOT countries or avoid a park all together and have discovered a whole new "world". We spent more time relaxing with family, visiting resorts, swimming and hot tubbing. To us, a much more relaxed trip.

I like the new system. It may change in the future, but as of now, I'm liking it.
 
I like the idea of it - mainly the app part (being able to see waiting times without walking to the rides is a plus) - haven't tried it out yet - first time using the new system this summer (fingers crossed should work okay)
 
OMG you guys-how many hours a day are you on here? :rotfl:

I see where the passion comes from. Hope you all can "carve out" maybe 10 or 20 minutes some day to reserve FP+ before a trip to WDW. :rotfl2:

Hey I wanted to add on the "Fall Special" of deluxe getting 8 etc, that was a response of a possible recession cure to a doom and gloom scenario that is sure to come.

But there is a lot they could do related to that anyway, just to further increase onsite stays/spending/rev etc, even in OK to good to great times. And directly tie in FP+ as a revenue generator.

There are still slow seasons.

They can offer slow season FP+ incentives to onsite guests:

Deluxe 8

Moderate 6

Value 4

Just as an example.

Or again-new attractions are SB unless you stay onsite, or Deluxe-whatever the mix allows for FP+ availability. Any leftover can be purchased on the APP "day of" for example.
 
I wasn't trying to say that y idea is the end-all-be-all -- I'm sorry if I came across that way. I just think we spend a lot of time talking around the big issue, which is crowds. That's what makes me crazy in this conversation -- FP- wasn't going to keep working the way people were used to it working, regardless. As more people come to the park, the FP-s would disappear even faster, the SB lines would get longer, too. It's not a matter of the system, it's the number of people and the large amounts of information available. Because people are looking for a way to maximize their trip, more and more people were going to be headed to rope drop and wiping out the FP- supply even earlier.

I think limiting the parks to resort guests for 120 days out of the year would be preferable to raising the admission prices to a level that would begin to shrink the admission numbers. It gives a benefit to the folks staying on site, and as long as everyone know it, people staying off site can plan around it. But I don't think it's the only solution -- I just don't believe that any of the problems at the park get better until the number of people goes down.
 
I think it is also a matter of the amount of rides being closed, Hollywood Studios is a shadow of itself with more rides closing every day (jack sparrow, sounds dangerous, american idol, backlot tour,etc) & even Epcot - when did Wonders of Life close (2007?). The parks prices are rising & I think Disney need to make more investments to new rides. I personally would like to see the tiering at Epcot & HS removed & maybe even the amount of FP+ issued to guests reduced to 2 per guests in these parks to make it fairer for all.
 
I think it is also a matter of the amount of rides being closed, Hollywood Studios is a shadow of itself with more rides closing every day (jack sparrow, sounds dangerous, american idol, backlot tour,etc) & even Epcot - when did Wonders of Life close (2007?). The parks prices are rising & I think Disney need to make more investments to new rides. I personally would like to see the tiering at Epcot & HS removed & maybe even the amount of FP+ issued to guests reduced to 2 per guests in these parks to make it fairer for all.

Taking it to a further conclusion...

Why not offer just ONE FP+?

Or, why not offer FP+ only as a lottery item?
"Buy a ticket, then enter to win an actual FP+ to ride an attraction!"
 
Taking it to a further conclusion...

Why not offer just ONE FP+?

Or, why not offer FP+ only as a lottery item?
"Buy a ticket, then enter to win an actual FP+ to ride an attraction!"

True - I don't know what the answer is with FP+ (I just know it isn't completely working in it's current state). I think the biggest improvements they have made remain with the app - being able to see the standby queueing times for the rides (without going to the ride or a time board), as well as allowed ride heights, accessibility, etc are the true successes of the new system - I'm sure the rest will sort itself out eventually
 
That works for me. :thumbsup2
I'd prefer the original suggestion with the following tweak...offsiters -3
value-4
mod-5
deluxe-6
That way you aren't taking away from anyone but rather adding a perk to those who stay onsite. Most would perceive it as being more fair I would think. Or what about allowing for extra fp's but only at certain times. If capacity is an issue and I think it is fair to say it is esp during busy weeks ie Xmas etc. then everyone is limited to 3 but when it can be done may be during certain weeks that are less busy. I think though that something like that would only work if Disney limited the number of high demand fp's to say one per person per x days to prevent fp hoarding. For example I know there are those who have frozen crazy kids but does someone really need to meet A&E 7 days in a row. Or as Jade suggested for the new attractions no fp at all. That works well for the park that shall not be named ;)
We can all agree to disagree on whether fp+ is a good or bad thing generally, but I think we can also agree that it would be good for Disney if they could come up with something that would make it more palatable for more people. What that "something" is I don't know.
 
I don't see how this solves a thing. Are we talking per room? Per person in the room? If it's person, you're handing out more than ever and that doesn't help anything. If it's per room then that's unfair to those who have the max number allowed in the room vs those who only have 1 person or 2. Plus what do you do with DVC and villa's that allow up to 6-8 people or more? What about the campgrounds that allow 10 people? It's a system that would be abused beyond belief.

And you'd have to think something is broke that needs fixed and I don't see it. I don't see where all that many people are unhappy- at least not unhappy enough to stay away. WDW is extremely popular and when you choose to go one of the most popular vacation destinations in the world, you're going to see crowds.

And while it makes for interesting discussion, I don't think it's anything disney would ever consider doing.
 
I'd prefer the original suggestion with the following tweak...offsiters -3
value-4
mod-5
deluxe-6
That way you aren't taking away from anyone but rather adding a perk to those who stay onsite.
This is a fantastic idea, but would probably have to be limited to "Value Season". Instead of trying to lure people in during the slower months, (weeks? days?) with Free Dining, they should immediately implement something along these lines. Wouldn't even have to do it every day. Maybe every other day, or every third day if they wanted to. Wouldn't cost Disney a penny. Bye-bye Free Dining. Hello "Extra Magic Days".

I don't see how this solves a thing. Are we talking per room? Per person in the room? If it's person, you're handing out more than ever and that doesn't help anything.
The system could handle it on slower days. We are already told that people are getting 8-12 FP+ on slow days. And to prevent the system from being overburdened, what Disney could do is, instead of allowing people to pre-book 6 FPs, they could set up the system to allow guests to book 3 (or 2, or 1 as appropriate) extra FPs only once they enter the park, and only at a kiosk. So you go in with 3 pre-booked. But you could book your extras immediately upon entering the park without having to use up your first 3. Not everyone would do it, so you wouldn't likely overtax the system. And, of course, the extra FPs would be "per availability" so there is no such thing as overtaxing the system. If 7DMT is not available at 9:00 a.m. as an "Extra Magic FP+", then it isn't available. You can't "hand out more than ever". The upper limit is the upper limit.


And you'd have to think something is broke that needs fixed and I don't see it. I don't see where all that many people are unhappy-
...she says on page 38 of this endless, back-and-forth thread! :chat: :)
 
I don't see how this solves a thing. Are we talking per room? Per person in the room? If it's person, you're handing out more than ever and that doesn't help anything. If it's per room then that's unfair to those who have the max number allowed in the room vs those who only have 1 person or 2. Plus what do you do with DVC and villa's that allow up to 6-8 people or more? What about the campgrounds that allow 10 people? It's a system that would be abused beyond belief.

And you'd have to think something is broke that needs fixed and I don't see it. I don't see where all that many people are unhappy- at least not unhappy enough to stay away. WDW is extremely popular and when you choose to go one of the most popular vacation destinations in the world, you're going to see crowds.

And while it makes for interesting discussion, I don't think it's anything disney would ever consider doing.
Again perhaps you don't see it but when we were there we heard nothing but griping from a whole lot of people. We know no one other than on these boards and certainly not a majority who seem to think that fp+ is wonderful in its present form. Imho in the long run this will hurt Disney. Eventually they will have to do something, and hopefully for them they will before another recession hits and they don't have customers with the same level of loyalty to depend on to keep them going.
 
...she says on page 38 of this endless, back-and-forth thread! :chat: :)

And if you add up all the unique posters, only counting those who are unhappy- doesn't add up to many. Even if did, it's a drop in the ocean.
 














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