Lost DVC points

[dwight16]

I had to cancel a trip and now I have 185 points that will expire end of August I can not use them I put them up of rental sites but have had no action and that is understandable. I am on the fence I don’t want any problems in the future booking but when I made this reservation coved-19 did not even exist. Bc Disney makes us plan so far in advance we are forced to tie up points 7-11 months out and so much can change. We don’t have choice since nothing would be available 2-3 months out. Going forward I believe this is very damaging to the value of dvc. We are forced to tie up points and money so far in advance that if things get canceled last minute we are left holding the bag. Where has a cash payer can unwind their trip very easily. I While I am ok with losing this trip bc of what is going on going forward when I make another reservation in the fall for spring I am again going to be committing banked points and who knows if next spring this is still not going on and outbreaks are popping up and things get canceled again. Dvc might have worked well for the last 25ish years but things change and now their processes are not working very well. I wonder even for us Disney people if things will change and we will won’t want to commit to things so far in advance with out any recourse. I don’t know what the answer is but I do know the model is now broken and us the members need to push for changes.

 

[momtwoboys]

People are comparing this to fixed weeks and flexible weeks. That’s not what I bought into. I bought into a much more flexible system that allows banking and borrowing across several years.

To make rule changes that allow everyone affected to bank their points, EXCEPT April & June use years is absurd.

This would be a double hit. First by losing points for reservations that were canceled, and then taking another hit when they figure out what to do about the imbalance caused by changing the rules for EVERY OTHER use year.

AGREE. June UY here and waiting to see what DVC is going to do or not do to help us.

 

[Sandisw]

People are comparing this to fixed weeks and flexible weeks. That’s not what I bought into. I bought into a much more flexible system that allows banking and borrowing across several years.

To make rule changes that allow everyone affected to bank their points, EXCEPT April & June use years is absurd.

This would be a double hit. First by losing points for reservations that were canceled, and then taking another hit when they figure out what to do about the imbalance caused by changing the rules for EVERY OTHER use year.

Im confused, What banking rules have been changed?

 

[Bullseye]

So if I reschedule a May trip to November and my banking deadline is July, would it be better to bank 2019 points and then borrow 2020 points for November trip. The logic being if they are still closed in November the 2020 points would go back to that UY whereas if I used 2019 points they would be lost since I would be past July banking deadline?

 

[Marionnette]

So if I reschedule a May trip to November and my banking deadline is July, would it be better to bank 2019 points and then borrow 2020 points for November trip. The logic being if they are still closed in November the 2020 points would go back to that UY whereas if I used 2019 points they would be lost since I would be past July banking deadline?

I'm guessing that you have a December UY. Any chance that you can travel in early December rather than November? That way, you can bank the 2019 points and won't need to borrow.

 

[Sandisw]

So if I reschedule a May trip to November and my banking deadline is July, would it be better to bank 2019 points and then borrow 2020 points for November trip. The logic being if they are still closed in November the 2020 points would go back to that UY whereas if I used 2019 points they would be lost since I would be past July banking deadline?

Since you still have several months before your deadline I would just book with your trip with 2019 Poijts.

Then, as we get closer and have an idea about opening, make the decision then to swap. Any anytime they could stop the process of putting borrowed points back and I am going to think we will know by then if they are making changes to banking,

If, they are still not open in July, then make a dummy reservation with borrowed Poijts, cancel it, and then modify to replace your bankable points then.

 

[Brian Noble]

People are comparing this to fixed weeks and flexible weeks. That’s not what I bought into. I bought into a much more flexible system that allows banking and borrowing across several years.

But it doesn't matter how it works: fixed, floating, points, whatever. The resorts are just about full year-round, but (at least) 20% of an entire year's worth of inventory system-wide is gone. That means 20% of the points of that year cannot be used for lodging in any way. The only question after that is how the pain is distributed, but there is going to be pain for some owners. Period.

 

[Brian Noble]

I’ve stayed at KBV in one of the ocean front villas, with one of the most beautiful views I’ve enjoyed in Hawaii. Makes me sad to see the damage. I’m sorry your 2020 weeks will probably be lost. Hope you aren’t hit with a huge special assessment for repairs.

Thanks, Carolyn. We've always enjoyed Hawaii, it is DW's Laughing Place. We stayed in an ocean front unit at KBV in 2018 on Wyndham points, fell in love with it, and picked up a couple of weeks so that we could have that view every year. I suspect the full impact will be spread out a bit thanks to insurance, but even if there is an assessment we will continue to be happy owners. We're going to be there for many years. Losing one here and there isn't the end of the world.

 

[andyman8]

But it doesn't matter how it works: fixed, floating, points, whatever. The resorts are just about full year-round, but (at leat) 20% of an entire year's worth of inventory system-wide is gone. That means 20% of the points of that year cannot be used for lodging in any way. The only question after that is how the pain is distributed, but there is going to be pain for some owners. Period.

Then, in my opinion, you should give something to or compensate those who are feeling that pain. Not everybody is feeling that pain, yet those members that are are like everybody else in that they’ve purchased a contract that allows them the opportunity to book a certain percentage of nights at a resort every year or save some of that value for the following year if they follow certain parameters. Yes, I'm sure Disney's lawyers have padded every contract to protect them from circumstances like this, but Disney charges a pretty penny over what other timeshares cost for the Disney name and reputation. They trade on that reputation of putting their guests/members first and doing what is right and best for them, even when they don't have to. Over the last year, I've heavily researched DVC and am now in a financial place where I could become a member; it's something I'd really, really like to do. I'd even buy direct to get the Membership Magic perks. I've been a WDW passholder for many years and love the Disney Resorts, but my standards for a $900 AP an at least $20-30k 50-year contract are very different. I have to have absolute confidence and trust in DVC, and while that hasn't really been an issue in my mind before this, this circumstance has turned me off from buying for the time being. The idea that somehow, in some way I could lose any points at all through no fault of my own doesn't instill confidence in me, and seeing how they've handled it (and the complete botched communication) gives me even less. Meanwhile, the cash side and AP services have been wonderful and very flexible. No monthly AP payments (and unexpected options in how I can proceed with my AP). A special free dining offer. Clear communication and incentives to rebook at a Disney Resort. While I'm sure this may upset some here, I feel more comfortable staying with the cash side now for the time being, and that's a recent development. Even if they don't have a problem upsetting their membership, I'd hope DVC would care about turning off potential new members.

What amazes me is that while this may be an unprecedented situation for WDW/DVC/TWDC, an unexpected temporary closure of a timeshare resort is far from unprecedented. Go up and down the East Coast (even in Florida) and I promise you that you'll find many beach timeshares that have had to close for weeks due to hurricanes and cleanup thereafter and deal with dislocated owners as a result. Those properties seem to have found ways in the past to compensate those owners beyond just a "too bad" email. I have a friend who has a fixed-week timeshare on a beach in SC and when he couldn't stay his week due to hurricane cleanup, the timeshare took care of his maintenance fees for the following year. Until DVC can point me to a specific statute in FL timeshare law that prohibits them from doing something like that or offering some sort of financial compensation or special offer or something to its members, I will assume they are just choose not to.

You may be willing and able to swallow the loss, and I commend your positive attitude, but I don't think it's fair to expect every member (each in their own different situation) to just do the same.

 

[Brian Noble]

The idea that somehow, in some way I could lose any points at all through no fault of my own doesn't instill confidence in me

Then you are right to think twice about becoming an owner. Being an owner anywhere in any timeshare means that you may have to share in unexpected losses. That could be in the form of special assessments when e.g. a storm does major damage to a resort beyond what insurance will cover. It may be in the form of higher maintenance fees when those insurance rates rise. It may even be in the infrequent loss of use due to an extended closure.

But, in exchange, you get to vacation in some pretty nice resorts at a healthy discount, because your ongoing costs are for resort operation, not the resort's profit*. That's the deal on offer when becoming an owner.

You may be willing and able to swallow the loss, and I commend your positive attitude, but I don't think it's fair to expect every member (each in their own different situation) to just do the same.

No one has to like it, but some will experience it. I don't particularly relish it either. But I understand it and accept it. Maybe it's too many Meetings in church basements spent reciting the Serenity Prayer.

[* Well mostly--the developer is also usually the manager, and there is a mangement fee. But that's pretty modest in the grand scheme of things.]

 

[Sandisw]

Then, in my opinion, you should give something to or compensate those who are feeling that pain. Not everybody is feeling that pain, yet those members that are are like everybody else in that they’ve purchased a contract that allows them the opportunity to book a certain percentage of nights at a resort every year or save some of that value for the following year if they follow certain parameters. Yes, I'm sure Disney's lawyers have padded every contract to protect them from circumstances like this, but Disney charges a pretty penny over what other timeshares cost for the Disney name and reputation. They trade on that reputation of putting their guests/members first and doing what is right and best for them, even when they don't have to. Over the last year, I've heavily researched DVC and am now in a financial place where I could become a member; it's something I'd really, really like to do. I'd even buy direct to get the Membership Magic perks. I've been a WDW passholder for many years and love the Disney Resorts, but my standards for a $900 AP an at least $20-30k 50-year contract are very different. I have to have absolute confidence and trust in DVC, and while that hasn't really been an issue in my mind before this, this circumstance has turned me off from buying for the time being. The idea that somehow, in some way I could lose any points at all through no fault of my own doesn't instill confidence in me, and seeing how they've handled it (and the complete botched communication) gives me even less. Meanwhile, the cash side and AP services have been wonderful and very flexible. No monthly AP payments (and unexpected options in how I can proceed with my AP). A special free dining offer. Clear communication and incentives to rebook at a Disney Resort. While I'm sure this may upset some here, I feel more comfortable staying with the cash side now for the time being, and that's a recent development. Even if they don't have a problem upsetting their membership, I'd hope DVC would care about turning off potential new members.

What amazes me is that while this may be an unprecedented situation for WDW/DVC/TWDC, an unexpected temporary closure of a timeshare resort is far from unprecedented. Go up and down the East Coast (even in Florida) and I promise you that you'll find many beach timeshares that have had to close for weeks due to hurricanes and cleanup thereafter and deal with dislocated owners as a result. Those properties seem to have found ways in the past to compensate those owners beyond just a "too bad" email. I have a friend who has a fixed-week timeshare on a beach in SC and when he couldn't stay his week due to hurricane cleanup, the timeshare took care of his maintenance fees for the following year. Until DVC can point me to a specific statute in FL timeshare law that prohibits them from doing something like that or offering some sort of financial compensation or special offer or something to its members, I will assume they are just choose not to.

You may be willing and able to swallow the loss, and I commend your positive attitude, but I don't think it's fair to expect every member (each in their own different situation) to just do the same.

FL timeshare law does require them to have a plan in place to balance supply and demand. I have not yet found..still reading...anything That specifically addresses emergency loss of rooms.

In addition to Timeshare Law, their is language in the POS that discussed emergency powers and the ability to apply a special assessment, without approval from owners, for damages incurred to resorts....just not sure if that would apply in this case.

But, there is nothing specifically in relation to this situation. If a resort is damaged and doesn’t reopen, owners are given their share of insurance...which may not be equivalent to what they actually paid.

So, IMO, if anyone is concerned that emergency things can happen to take your real estate ownership out of service..which is what DVC is...and that it could cause you to lose access and points...than it may not be the product that fits that persons needs,

Cash guests definitely have advantages because they are not owners of property and while we enjoy discounts for long term stays, well beyond that of a cash guest, it does come with trade offs....this is one of them,

I think what I am learning as well as that there are a lot of pieces in play by the way this is set up, with TWDC not being responsible for DVC losses, that will take time to iron out. It will take time to figure out short term and long term solutions,

Even if DVC did everything the way some would like...move all expiring points forward, there Still won’t be enough rooms next UY to book, and instead of owners losing use of points now, it would happen next year,

They only difference is which DVC owner suffers that loss

 

[andyman8]

Then you are right to think twice about becoming an owner. Being an owner anywhere in any timeshare means that you may have to share in unexpected losses. That could be in the form of special assessments when e.g. a storm does major damage to a resort beyond what insurance will cover. It may be in the form of higher maintenance fees when those insurance rates rise. It may even be in the infrequent loss of use due to an extended closure.

But, in exchange, you get to vacation in some pretty nice resorts at a healthy discount, because your ongoing costs are for resort operation, not the resort's profit*. That's the deal on offer when becoming an owner.

No one has to like it, but some will experience it. I don't particularly relish it either. But I understand it and accept it. Maybe it's too many Meetings in church basements spent reciting the Serenity Prayer.

[* Well mostly--the developer is also usally the manager, and there is a mangement fee. But that's pretty modest in the grand scheme of things.]

Yes, it goes without saying that with any real estate purchase, there is always a chance (and in some cases, a likelihood) of unexpected losses during the tenure of your ownership. But if you are a co-owner, the other party in the agreement is also expected to minimize losses and act in the best interest of the ownership as a whole, not just their specific stake. I do happen to know FL timeshare law includes stipulations that aim to ensure that. On DVC's part that means making concessions to affected members to minimize their loss to the greatest extent possible. On affected members' part, it means accepting those concessions and accepting any remaining losses. But the balance there is integral. DVC shouldn't be just sending an email to all members saying, "Too bad," and members shouldn't be expecting the full value of everything that's been lost. If that means direct financial payments (perhaps from insurance) that don't necessarily equal the explicit value of the lost points, then that would satisfy me. But there has to be a give-and-take. Disney shouldn't be using its leverage and somewhat advantageous position in an ownership agreement to tip that balance against the affected membership to minimize any more losses on DVC's part

Knowing Disney and all of the leverage and resources they have at their disposal, I think you and I agree that is more they *could* do, even if in the form of good will. No, it may not be in members' best interest to just extend banked points into the next year, but they certainly have other options like financial compensation. I know every Disney Resort (DVC and cash) has an insurance policy designed for closures just like this. They're not huge but perhaps affected DVC members get a tiny cut of ones at their resort. Idk. Yes, those remedies would undoubtedly result in increased expenditures on DVC's part (which right now would translate to losses), but I go back to the give-and-take balance I was discussing.

That's not even mentioning how they sell DVC, marketing it as with "Leave it to Disney dependability." When buying direct, DVC sells not only the real estate interest itself but the Disney reputation. This isn't just a timeshare anywhere, it's timeshare at Disney, by Disney. I remember a Guide advising me not to look at this as "just another timeshare because Disney advocates for its membership." He said something about them "remaining our Guests" or something like that. While that marketing is largely irrelevant in this circumstance, one has to question the ethics of marketing a purchase one way and then doing business in a way that might be perceived as undercutting those claims.

I also respectfully ask that you just stick to the argument here. I have put a lot of time and research into purchasing DVC, including seeking advice from members on this Board on whether it's a fit for me. That conclusion is ultimately my calculation, based on circumstances and factors to which nobody else is privy. Me questioning how DVC is handling this does not necessarily mean DVC never was for me because I somehow misunderstood what I was looking at. As I said, I respect and appreciate your perspective, and I'd hope you'd respect mine.

 

[Gary Carter]

Following

 

[Brian Noble]

But if you are a co-owner, the other party in the agreement is also expected to minimize losses and act in the best interest of the ownership as a whole, not just their specific stake.

The only other parties are the other owners. Yes, Disney is an owner---they keep 2 of the 52 available weeks for maintenance (those are never used), and they have unsold, foreclosed, and ROFR'd deeds. But, any haircut is going to affect them as well as anyone else, because those deeds have a use year.

I know every Disney Resort (DVC and cash) has an insurance policy designed for closures just like this.

If there are payouts due to insurance, reduced costs due to closures, etc. those savings will be reflected in future year's dues to all owners. So that's a plus.

Could other segments of TWDC pitch in and help DVC owners? Sure. Do I think they will? No. In fact, I've long had the opinion that DVC was designed precisely to shift the risk of declining travel demand off of the company and on to individual owners.
https://www.disboards.com/threads/disney-resorts-occupancy-rates.3526255/post-56147965

 

[Sandisw]

Yes, it goes without saying that with any real estate purchase, there is always a chance (and in some cases, a likelihood) of unexpected losses during the tenure of your ownership. But if you are a co-owner, the other party in the agreement is also expected to minimize losses and act in the best interest of the ownership as a whole, not just their specific stake. I do happen to know FL timeshare law includes stipulations that aim to ensure that. On DVC's part that means making concessions to affected members to minimize their loss to the greatest extent possible. On affected members' part, it means accepting those concessions and accepting any remaining losses. But the balance there is integral. DVC shouldn't be just sending an email to all members saying, "Too bad," and members shouldn't be expecting the full value of everything that's been lost. If that means direct financial payments (perhaps from insurance) that don't necessarily equal the explicit value of the lost points, then that would satisfy me. But there has to be a give-and-take. Disney shouldn't be using its leverage and somewhat advantageous position in an ownership agreement to tip that balance against the affected membership to minimize any more losses on DVC's part

Knowing Disney and all of the leverage and resources they have at their disposal, I think you and I agree that is more they *could* do, even if in the form of good will. No, it may not be in members' best interest to just extend banked points into the next year, but they certainly have other options like financial compensation. I know every Disney Resort (DVC and cash) has an insurance policy designed for closures just like this. They're not huge but perhaps affected DVC members get a tiny cut of ones at their resort. Idk. Yes, those remedies would undoubtedly result in increased expenditures on DVC's part (which right now would translate to losses), but I go back to the give-and-take balance I was discussing.

That's not even mentioning how they sell DVC, marketing it as with "Leave it to Disney dependability." When buying direct, DVC sells not only the real estate interest itself but the Disney reputation. This isn't just a timeshare anywhere, it's timeshare at Disney, by Disney. I remember a Guide advising me not to look at this as "just another timeshare because Disney advocates for its membership." He said something about them "remaining our Guests" or something like that. While that marketing is largely irrelevant in this circumstance, one has to question the ethics of marketing a purchase one way and then doing business in a way that might be perceived as undercutting those claims.

I also respectfully ask that you just stick to the argument here. I have put a lot of time and research into purchasing DVC, including seeking advice from members on this Board on whether it's a fit for me. That conclusion is ultimately my calculation, based on circumstances and factors to which nobody else is privy. Me questioning how DVC is handling this does not necessarily mean DVC never was for me because I somehow misunderstood what I was looking at. As I said, I respect and appreciate your perspective, and I'd hope you'd respect mine.

Do you know for sure that DVC is carrying business interruption insurance? The POS seems to state it is optional, based on cost.

DVcM has also told owners that they can’t make changes to the banking rules until they have a clear picture of loss. So, it’s not just been decided nothing will be done. The bigger problem, though, is that no matter what is done, some owners will be unhappy, now or later.

 

[Gary Carter]

I'm curious to see how disney is going to handle all the extra points over the next couple of years because all these points are being allowed to be banked.

I bet they will come up with a way to strategically raise point costs on one or two bedroom units to eat the points up, which will be Interesting because we all know what they actually want to do is raise the cost of studios

 

[Sandisw]

I'm curious to see how disney is going to handle all the extra points over the next couple of years because all these points are being allowed to be banked.

I bet they will come up with a way to strategically raise point costs on one or two bedroom units to eat the points up, which will be Interesting because we all know what they actually want to do is raise the cost of studios

Someone mentioned that they have the ability, without staying within points balancing, to create 7 month non home resort Charts,

May be a good way to eat up excess points for those wanting to stay elsewhere.

 

[starry_solo]

I had to cancel a trip and now I have 185 points that will expire end of August I can not use them I put them up of rental sites but have had no action and that is understandable. I am on the fence I don’t want any problems in the future booking but when I made this reservation coved-19 did not even exist. Bc Disney makes us plan so far in advance we are forced to tie up points 7-11 months out and so much can change. We don’t have choice since nothing would be available 2-3 months out. Going forward I believe this is very damaging to the value of dvc. We are forced to tie up points and money so far in advance that if things get canceled last minute we are left holding the bag. Where has a cash payer can unwind their trip very easily. I While I am ok with losing this trip bc of what is going on going forward when I make another reservation in the fall for spring I am again going to be committing banked points and who knows if next spring this is still not going on and outbreaks are popping up and things get canceled again. Dvc might have worked well for the last 25ish years but things change and now their processes are not working very well. I wonder even for us Disney people if things will change and we will won’t want to commit to things so far in advance with out any recourse. I don’t know what the answer is but I do know the model is now broken and us the members need to push for changes.

Put them into RCI?

 

[Gary Carter]

Someone mentioned that they have the ability, without staying within points balancing, to create 7 month non home resort Charts,

May be a good way to eat up excess points for those wanting to stay elsewhere.

Once that can of worms is opened, its opened.

Is that cure worse than the problem?

 

[Sandisw]

Once that can of worms is opened, its opened.

Is that cure worse than the problem?

I don’t know, but I agree that if it is opened, I agree, it won’t go back.

I keep thinking about it all and I just don’t know how you do anything to Fix it without upsetting people. Maybe, they should have just held steady with all the rules, other than holding, and when people lost, they lost.

But, then again, they appear to be trying to figure out something. I think what may be the fairest, if legal, is that all expiring Points are reimbursed the MFs, and those costs are added to the 2021 MFs for all owners,