Lost DVC points

[Sandisw]

I am in the same boat. I have a split reservation May 7-12...3 bedroom grand villas...split between 2 contracts..a June UY and a Dec UY. Just spoke with MS and they advised that current policy is my borrowed points will go back to original UY...so Dec contract is okay for now...issue is looks like I may lose 160 points from my June UY contract if I dont use by May 31st. MS advised they are going week to week but only option I have if resorts still closed is by April 17th convert them all into an RCI contract and then could use at some point in next year.

Tried reading through all the 13 pages of responses here...Any May UY members here? What have you done? Anyone lost points or done anything different?

I know moving everyones points into next year would kill the system, but am hoping Disney compensates in some fashion for those that lose points due to resorts closed before their UY.

Thanks

There is no May UY. There are people with April UYs have already lost the points. Their only hope at this point is that when this is done that DVCM has thought of a way to help those who had expiring points.

For June UY, at least you have the RCI option. If you wait out a DVCM, in case they change a rule, you would lose them for sure.

 

[CanadaDisney05]

Another possibility I thought of (maybe not even remotely legal or feasible, but perhaps worth at least considering):

What if they create a new, modified type of point status? Points lost due to COVID-related closures of the resorts could be put into a special account for that member. These points would have the 60-day booking restriction (the same as points in holding), but would not expire at the end of the current UY. They could either establish an expiration date X # of years in the future, or they could even be usable for the life of the contract. But they could only be used when there's availability at 60 days out.

Disney would probably market this as "Holding+" or some other pixie-dust laced name.

If it's legal, this could allow owners to not lose points. They would, in fact, get the benefit of extended expiration of those points (that's the PLUS!). But because they would be subject to the 60-day restriction like holding points are, they could only be used for rooms that were likely to go empty anyway. This could help to minimize the impact of excess points in the system by spreading out their use over multiple years and, even then, only when there's "last minute" availability.

If owners with unaffected points don't book a room by the 60-day mark and subsequently lose points due to lack of availability, one could make the argument that this is already a risk if you don't book early. It's possible that owners with these special points might never get to use them if there's no availability, but at least there's a chance they could. And because the availability would only be there as a result of others "snoozing" there wouldn't be a lot of room for them to complain because we all signed on to the "subject to availability" clause and waiting that long to book would be knowingly accepting the risk that rooms might not be available.

If this is legal, I actually think this is a really good idea.

 

[Sandisw]

Another possibility I thought of (maybe not even remotely legal or feasible, but perhaps worth at least considering):

What if they create a new, modified type of point status? Points lost due to COVID-related closures of the resorts could be put into a special account for that member. These points would have the 60-day booking restriction (the same as points in holding), but would not expire at the end of the current UY. They could either establish an expiration date X # of years in the future, or they could even be usable for the life of the contract. But they could only be used when there's availability at 60 days out.

Disney would probably market this as "Holding+" or some other pixie-dust laced name.

If it's legal, this could allow owners to not lose points. They would, in fact, get the benefit of extended expiration of those points (that's the PLUS!). But because they would be subject to the 60-day restriction like holding points are, they could only be used for rooms that were likely to go empty anyway. This could help to minimize the impact of excess points in the system by spreading out their use over multiple years and, even then, only when there's "last minute" availability.

If owners with unaffected points don't book a room by the 60-day mark and subsequently lose points due to lack of availability, one could make the argument that this is already a risk if you don't book early. It's possible that owners with these special points might never get to use them if there's no availability, but at least there's a chance they could. And because the availability would only be there as a result of others "snoozing" there wouldn't be a lot of room for them to complain because we all signed on to the "subject to availability" clause and waiting that long to book would be knowingly accepting the risk that rooms might not be available.

I think those points that were beyond banking window might be some that they could do something.

I read something last night elsewhere that extending the life of banked points may not be within the guidelines of Florida Timeshare Law. I have also heard that HGVC has found a way to do something like that, but they have properties, I believe in more than one state, which may have allowed it.

I am trying to see if I can find if, indeed, they can extend the dates of banked points.

But, even if they can’t, they could implement the same premise with OTU points for a short term Program.

IMO, I don’t think that the extension should be substantially more than the shelf life of the points to begin with, but it is an idea that could work!

 

[mlayton14]

Another possibility I thought of (maybe not even remotely legal or feasible, but perhaps worth at least considering):

What if they create a new, modified type of point status? Points lost due to COVID-related closures of the resorts could be put into a special account for that member. These points would have the 60-day booking restriction (the same as points in holding), but would not expire at the end of the current UY. They could either establish an expiration date X # of years in the future, or they could even be usable for the life of the contract. But they could only be used when there's availability at 60 days out.

Disney would probably market this as "Holding+" or some other pixie-dust laced name.

If it's legal, this could allow owners to not lose points. They would, in fact, get the benefit of extended expiration of those points (that's the PLUS!). But because they would be subject to the 60-day restriction like holding points are, they could only be used for rooms that were likely to go empty anyway. This could help to minimize the impact of excess points in the system by spreading out their use over multiple years and, even then, only when there's "last minute" availability.

If owners with unaffected points don't book a room by the 60-day mark and subsequently lose points due to lack of availability, one could make the argument that this is already a risk if you don't book early. It's possible that owners with these special points might never get to use them if there's no availability, but at least there's a chance they could. And because the availability would only be there as a result of others "snoozing" there wouldn't be a lot of room for them to complain because we all signed on to the "subject to availability" clause and waiting that long to book would be knowingly accepting the risk that rooms might not be available.

The below is an excellent idea , doesn’t jeopardize inventory much at all , and wouldn’t involve Disney giving up anything

 

[tjm236]

Borrowed points are stuck normally, but that happens only when the owner cancels, If the owner didn’t book, those points would not be borrowed, and since the owner is not doing the canceling, it may have been decided that they had to go back, as it didn’t fit the criteria of the rule as written.

Where does it state that it's only if the owner cancels? A reference is made to the owner cancelling in the cancellation section but there's no mention of an exception to borrowing rules in the borrowing section:

"Once Borrowed, Home Resort Vacation Points cannot be returned to their original Use Year and will expire if not used by the end of the Use Year into which they were Borrowed "

and also in another section:

"No Retrieval of Banked or Borrowed Home Resort Vacation Points. Once Home Resort Vacation Points have been Banked or Borrowed, they may not be returned to their original Use Year except as noted in section 5.b.2) of this Article."

The "rules as written" don't make an exception for the return of borrowed points, regardless of who cancels. DVCM decided to make an exception to this rule.

 

[dismedvc]

Where does it state that it's only if the owner cancels? A reference is made to the owner cancelling in the cancellation section but there's no mention of an exception to borrowing rules in the borrowing section:

"Once Borrowed, Home Resort Vacation Points cannot be returned to their original Use Year and will expire if not used by the end of the Use Year into which they were Borrowed "

and also in another section:

"No Retrieval of Banked or Borrowed Home Resort Vacation Points. Once Home Resort Vacation Points have been Banked or Borrowed, they may not be returned to their original Use Year except as noted in section 5.b.2) of this Article."

The "rules as written" don't make an exception for the return of borrowed points, regardless of who cancels. DVCM decided to make an exception to this rule.

What is the exception in 5.b.2)

ETA: Never mind, I found it (see below) and it seems to confirm DVCM did make a exception to the "rules as written", since what they did is not a case of applying "except as noted in section 5.b.2)"

"2) Once Borrowed, Home Resort Vacation Points cannot be returned to their original Use Year and will expire if not used by the end of the Use Year into which they were Borrowed. However, if a Club Member purchases an additional Ownership Interest after Borrowing Home Resort Vacation Points, that Club Member may substitute newly allocated Home Resort Vacation Points of a current Use Year for the Borrowed Home Resort Vacation Points that were used toward a future reservation, and the Borrowed Home Resort Vacation Points will be returned to their original Use Year."

 

[Sandisw]

Where does it state that it's only if the owner cancels? A reference is made to the owner cancelling in the cancellation section but there's no mention of an exception to borrowing rules in the borrowing section:

"Once Borrowed, Home Resort Vacation Points cannot be returned to their original Use Year and will expire if not used by the end of the Use Year into which they were Borrowed "

and also in another section:

"No Retrieval of Banked or Borrowed Home Resort Vacation Points. Once Home Resort Vacation Points have been Banked or Borrowed, they may not be returned to their original Use Year except as noted in section 5.b.2) of this Article."

The "rules as written" don't make an exception for the return of borrowed points, regardless of who cancels. DVCM decided to make an exception to this rule.

Maybe it wasn’t written clearly...sorry about that,

The owner cancel was part of holding language, and since that Isn’t what is happening they applied it to all,

I was referring to rule that you can’t borrow unless you make a reservation and thus, those points were only put there for those specific dates,

The resort closure changed the circumstances of the act of borrowing, since there is only one way to borrow.

I was simply sharing another idea as to why they could have treated them that way...an owner couldn’t have borrowed except for those dates.

Absolutely, they have adjusted the rules to help figure this out and so far, it seems to be inline with the same policy used for hurricanes,

I didn't mean to imply it wasn’t their choice, but the circumstances behind borrowing may have played a rule in why they felt the canceling by them voided the act of borrowing,

More likely, it has to do with inventory.

 

[breezy52]

I tried to read through everything and may have missed something so I appreciate your patience.

To a certain degree, I understand the mindset that booking trips after your banking window closes is risky. If I book a resort in the last 4 months of my use year, the risk is if I cancel due to some personal emergency, illness, weather related travel issue, etc…, I will lose those points.

If the resorts were OPEN for me to use and I could not get there. That is on me. I get that.

What I don’t get is when the resorts are unexpectedly CLOSED, I am penalized for taking the “risk” of booking a trip in the last 4 months of my use year.

Resorts have generally remained open during hurricanes and other severe weather events so one would not think there could be a risk on the resort’s end to not book in the final four months of their use year. The parks and pools may have closed but the resorts stayed open.

My use year is for 12 months, not 8 months, but it sounds like I should never book a trip during the last four months of my use year.

I can’t see not affording members some reasonable accommodation when things get back to whatever normal will be.

If the resort was damaged due to a fire, would I still be penalized for using my points during the final four months of my use year? I understand DVC is complying with government orders and is not at fault here but I’m hopeful there will be some creativity like the 60 day holding window idea that was previously mentioned.

On a side note, can someone explain why the booking window is that early? Why not 2 or 3 months from the end of the use year?

 

[Sandisw]

I tried to read through everything and may have missed something so I appreciate your patience.

To a certain degree, I understand the mindset that booking trips after your banking window closes is risky. If I book a resort in the last 4 months of my use year, the risk is if I cancel due to some personal emergency, illness, weather related travel issue, etc…, I will lose those points.

If the resorts were OPEN for me to use and I could not get there. That is on me. I get that.

What I don’t get is when the resorts are unexpectedly CLOSED, I am penalized for taking the “risk” of booking a trip in the last 4 months of my use year.

Resorts have generally remained open during hurricanes and other severe weather events so one would not think there could be a risk on the resort’s end to not book in the final four months of their use year. The parks and pools may have closed but the resorts stayed open.

My use year is for 12 months, not 8 months, but it sounds like I should never book a trip during the last four months of my use year.

I can’t see not affording members some reasonable accommodation when things get back to whatever normal will be.

If the resort was damaged due to a fire, would I still be penalized for using my points during the final four months of my use year? I understand DVC is complying with government orders and is not at fault here but I’m hopeful there will be some creativity like the 60 day holding window idea that was previously mentioned.

On a side note, can someone explain why the booking window is that early? Why not 2 or 3 months from the end of the use year?

The banking window used to be even more restrictive. I wasn’t an owner then, but as the year went on the amount you could bank was reduced,

So, the current rules are better, As unfortunate as it is, traveling toward the end is risky, as you said. If someone wants extra insurance or flexibility planning trips within those first 8 months is what one should do to give more options.

In terms of a fire, if the resort was closed, then you’d be in the same position as now, other than one aspect. You’d have other resorts open that could be booked, if there was availability. But, if you had expiring points and there were no rooms to trade to, or you couldn’t travel, then the points would be lost, There is no protection in the contract for that, If DVD decided not to rebuild, the owners would get their share of insurance, which may not be equal to what they have invested

DVCM has said they are looking into things to see if there is anything they can do to help with the lost points, but it’s not simple or easy to do, as you said, based on the law and the limitations od the contract,

Right now, based on initial information, they decided they can’t change banking rules and allow late banking, nor can they do anything with banked points that expire,

Most things would seem to involve making a deal with Disney to help and until they know the scope of this thing, getting that help will be difficult.

Yes, it is unfortunate that some points could be lost, but if we end up with 10 weeks of closure, it will be tough to absorb them all

 

[dsnymnkyuncle]

This triggers a couple of thoughts. I actually forgot about Disney selling points. 19.50 each if I recall. That is quite a premium over what owners can get by themselves or from agents like Daves. Have you ever seen the number of these points sold per year?
Or information breaking down how they are sourced?

How ironic would it be if the points owners as a group lose in the last 60 days were included in Disney getting 5 dollars a point premium.

I too think they should change rule for OTU points and hopefully they will.

OTU points come from the points that Disney owns from lots of sources. That is wny they can only be used at the 7 month mark because then it doesn’t matter resort.

I assume that when they sell them to a member, they choose ones with the same UY to keep it easy. But, this is just a guess.

 

[breezy52]

As unfortunate as it is, traveling toward the end is risky, as you said. If someone wants extra insurance or flexibility planning trips within those first 8 months is what one should do to give more options.

What strategy would you suggest for going to Flower and Garden every year? Buy points with a different use year? I thought it was recommended to avoid buying points with different use years.

 

[cmrdgrs]

AUG UY here -- Depending on when the resorts open I'll either lose 610 points or 13. I have two reservations at HHI coming up -- 1) June 28 - 10 and a rental 2) July 5 - 10. I also have 332 points I used in the Disney Collection for a cancelled stay at the GCH for this weekend.

At my request, a DVC Supervisor called me earlier this week and stated that DVC Senior Management, so far, is not reversing course on their current stance for owners with June & August UY that are in jeopardy of losing banked points. However, they may reconsider, but as you're making decisions about what to do with your points you should work in the guidelines given at this point in time.

DVC Senior Management is squarely punting to RCI for "saving" points. Gets them out of the DVC network and meets the need to "save" members points.

Not happy, but I don't see DVC Senior Management changing course on this one.

 

[dsnymnkyuncle]

You are correct and it is an important point. Our original use year is August and it is kind of a bite. When we added on Copper Creek I really want a different use year but it was like pulling teeth.

yet the nature of points mean they have to end and a real end. OTH it does seems like the risks are not quite balanced

What strategy would you suggest for going to Flower and Garden every year? Buy points with a different use year? I thought it was recommended to avoid buying points with different use years.

 

[cmrdgrs]

<snip...> As unfortunate as it is, traveling toward the end is risky <...snip>

Sad, but true. The absolute safest way to use your membership is to not travel in the last 4 months of your UY. For me, personally, anytime I venture into travel in the last 4 months of my UY I cringe that I might have a problem. I also avoid rentals in the last 4 months of my UY. This year, yeah -- I did both and put a LOT of points in that position

The best I can hope for is a mid-June opening at HHI and a July opening at Disneyland

 

[Sandisw]

What strategy would you suggest for going to Flower and Garden every year? Buy points with a different use year? I thought it was recommended to avoid buying points with different use years.

It is what I did, I have 3 UYs and deal with 3 memberships because I originally bought June UY since I traveled in summer. When I began to want to go for Memorial Day, I knew that would be the worst for my June UY so I added on some Dec UY points for that trip.

No one UY will work for all travel, that is true. I only mention it because when you do, your points are at a disadvantage and your options are limited.

Unfortunately those that did, are at the mercy now of DVCM to help out. If it wasn’t for this being unprecedented, they wouldn’t even be trying,

 

[Sandisw]

This triggers a couple of thoughts. I actually forgot about Disney selling points. 19.50 each if I recall. That is quite a premium over what owners can get by themselves or from agents like Daves. Have you ever seen the number of these points sold per year?
Or information breaking down how they are sourced?

How ironic would it be if the points owners as a group lose in the last 60 days were included in Disney getting 5 dollars a point premium.

Even if they don’t pull any rooms that are breakage, our dues wont see that income either to offset dues,

It still may be a good option, but it requires Disney to agree to a deal with DVCM.

That is the real problem. Most options that prevent any owners from losing points require Disney, the company to take a hit...a big own, IMO.

Since they are not required to, and are losing big time in the other divisions they are responsible for, I just don’t see it being an easy task to get done.

I still hope they do...but I have my doubts that the final solution will make all members happy. As I have said many times, I hope I am wrong!

 

[cmrdgrs]

It is what I did, I have 3 UYs and deal with 3 memberships because I originally bought June UY since I traveled in summer. When I began to want to go for Memorial Day, I knew that would be the worst for my June UY so I added on some Dec UY points for that trip.

No one UY will work for all travel, that is true. I only mention it because when you do, your points are at a disadvantage and your options are limited.

Unfortunately those that did, are at the mercy now of DVCM to help out. If it wasn’t for this being unprecedented, they wouldn’t even be trying,

When I bought my first contract direct at SSR I didn't know what I didn't know, and was given an AUG UY. From there when I added, to keep things simple, I stayed with an AUG UY. For the most part, my AUG UY has worked out well for me. But, when I bought my HHI contract, I would have been wise to choose a better UY that met my desire to travel to HHI over the summer. Too late now. It is what it is.

 

[cmrdgrs]

I was an owner under the old banking guidelines. In some ways looking back, given the situation some of us are in now, it probably was designed to help owners use and not lose points. I bought in 2006. I want to say by 2008 it was changed.

Maybe DVC will change the banking guidelines again in reactions to what's happening now? That would be interesting.

 

[momtwoboys]

got another email from DVC just now telling me to put my points into RCI " If I can't use them by May31st" Nope I am not using RCI. Completely disgusted with DVC and their lack of a plan by now. They know the parks will be closed for a while, with the possibility of a June 1 reopening they need to make a decision for April/June UY soon.

 

[cmrdgrs]

got another email from DVC just now telling me to put my points into RCI " If I can't use them by May31st" Nope I am not using RCI. Completely disgusted with DVC and their lack of a plan by now. They know the parks will be closed for a while, with the possibility of a June 1 reopening they need to make a decision for April/June UY soon.

If you don't mind sharing -- I'm just curious why you're opposed to RCI? I have an AUG UY and the quandary I'm in is if I Disney hasn't shared any firm plan to reopen, my deadline for RCI is June 16th. June UYs would have to decide by April 16th (some date next week).