Lost DVC points

[10CJ]

It is a frustrating situation for sure, but, booking after a banking window, especially now, is even more risky than before.

As you say, there may not be the solutions in the past. What does that mean?

If I was in your position, I wouldn’t book a trip for November and risk points being lost, when we know that banking rules are not being changed.

I think that what this situation has brought to light is that when deciding when to use points, one needs to plan for forces out of ones control that could cause a cancellation and what the options would be if that happened,

It could mean more owners will be forced to travel early in the UY to ensure they have protected the points as best they can,

The main reason we are considering it is because we have 2019 points that were banked into 2020 that we need to use. If they were just 2020 points I would bank them into 2021. We have a Feb UY so this trip is was early in our UY. We also now have a trip to Hilton Head planned that was not in the plans before to try and use some of the banked 2019 points. I feel like we don’t have a ton of options with the points banked into 2020. I am open to suggestions.

 

[WilsonFlyer]

1) banked points should not be allowed to be banked a second time. The inventory associated with those points has expired.

2) current year points used for travel in the last 4 months of the use year I have less of a problem with being allowed to bank. The inventory associated with those points was taken away from the membership at nobody,'s fault. However, members were taking a risk by travelling in the last 4 months of their use year so I am also okay with them not allowing these to be banked too.

For the record, my Easter reservation was made wholly with 2019 current June UY points. None of my points were banked from 2018.

 

[WilsonFlyer]

Equal to first degree murder. Sorry I don't agree.
DVC is basically voiding the reservation. Since the reservation was voided borrowed points were returned as if they were never borrowed. Voiding the rental didn't change the expiration date, or banking deadline, of your UY points.

That is taken completely out of context. Do you seriously think anybody would equate this to murder? It's an analogy. C'mon!

I am talking about return of borrowed points and banking of current UY points being equal crimes. Let's not turn this into something it's obviously not.

 

[Sandisw]

The main reason we are considering it is because we have 2019 points that were banked into 2020 that we need to use. If they were just 2020 points I would bank them into 2021. We have a Feb UY so this trip is was early in our UY. We also now have a trip to Hilton Head planned that was not in the plans before to try and use some of the banked 2019 points. I feel like we don’t have a ton of options with the points banked into 2020. I am open to suggestions.

If they already banked points, then you are in a use it or lose it situation...which honestly is always the case with banked points.

The good news is that you have still 10 months left on them...so, if November is what works, that is when you can book,..you could also book summer...July or August...and if that has to be moved, you still have until January

 

[Sandisw]

That is taken completely out of context. Do you seriously think anybody would equate this to murder? It's an analogy. C'mon!

I am talking about return of borrowed points and banking of current UY points being equal crimes. Let's not turn this into something it's obviously not.

They may be equal in terms of both being final transactions,

Current UY points have rule that if you book them after the 8 month mark, you lose your ability to bank.

When people borrow points, they pick a specific date to use them and agree to have them stuck for those dates.

DVCM has decided, as of today, that they are different. Ideas have been shared as to why they may have made the decision.

But, in the end, they determined that borrowed points should go back and late banking will not be allowed, Maybe you should email them to ask for more info to help explain their reasoning since some of us believe it’s a rational move.

 

[karen4546]

For the record, my Easter reservation was made wholly with 2019 current June UY points. None of my points were banked from 2018.

Same for me but I technically have not been canceled by DVCM yet. My reservation is for May 24-29. I am using 75 2019 points that I did not bank (UY August) and I borrowed 125 from 2020 and i also bought 20 OTU points to complet the 220 pt reservation at CC. CM said that IF I CANCEL then I would need to use 95 points BEFORE July 31, 2020-this includes the 20 OTU points that I bought to complete the reservation- I would have not bought OTU points except to complete the reservation. So, IMO they should refund me the money i paid for the points since I am not getting to use them. I just bought DVC in May of 2019 so I don't really know where OTU points come from. like what UY and such. I believe they will put the 2020 points back and then I will be able to use those for my September or December trips and the I won't have to borrow points from 2021.

I will probably ALWAYS be in the borrow mode because we only bought a total of 125 pts but who know ....

 

[CanadaDisney05]

I would have not bought OTU points except to complete the reservation. So, IMO they should refund me the money i paid for the points since I am not getting to use them.

Completely agree. OTU points should definitely be returned

 

[Sandisw]

Same for me but I technically have not been canceled by DVCM yet. My reservation is for May 24-29. I am using 75 2019 points that I did not bank (UY August) and I borrowed 125 from 2020 and i also bought 20 OTU points to complet the 220 pt reservation at CC. CM said that IF I CANCEL then I would need to use 95 points BEFORE July 31, 2020-this includes the 20 OTU points that I bought to complete the reservation- I would have not bought OTU points except to complete the reservation. So, IMO they should refund me the money i paid for the points since I am not getting to use them. I just bought DVC in May of 2019 so I don't really know where OTU points come from. like what UY and such. I believe they will put the 2020 points back and then I will be able to use those for my September or December trips and the I won't have to borrow points from 2021.

I will probably ALWAYS be in the borrow mode because we only bought a total of 125 pts but who know ....

I too think they should change rule for OTU points and hopefully they will.

OTU points come from the points that Disney owns from lots of sources. That is wny they can only be used at the 7 month mark because then it doesn’t matter resort.

I assume that when they sell them to a member, they choose ones with the same UY to keep it easy. But, this is just a guess.

 

[nagshead]

Same for me but I technically have not been canceled by DVCM yet. My reservation is for May 24-29. I am using 75 2019 points that I did not bank (UY August) and I borrowed 125 from 2020 and i also bought 20 OTU points to complet the 220 pt reservation at CC. CM said that IF I CANCEL then I would need to use 95 points BEFORE July 31, 2020-this includes the 20 OTU points that I bought to complete the reservation- I would have not bought OTU points except to complete the reservation. So, IMO they should refund me the money i paid for the points since I am not getting to use them. I just bought DVC in May of 2019 so I don't really know where OTU points come from. like what UY and such. I believe they will put the 2020 points back and then I will be able to use those for my September or December trips and the I won't have to borrow points from 2021.

I will probably ALWAYS be in the borrow mode because we only bought a total of 125 pts but who know ....

Same, our trip is May 22-31 and all points were 2019 aug use year (none banked from 2018).

 

[Grumpy by Birth]

Current UY points have rule that if you book them after the 8 month mark, you lose your ability to bank.

When people borrow points, they pick a specific date to use them and agree to have them stuck for those dates.

I would describe the distinction slightly different:

Current UY points lose ability to bank after the deadline whether or not they have been used to book a reservation. If they have been used to book a reservation after that will occur after the 8-month mark (banking deadline), they could still be banked if you cancel that reservation before the banking deadline (normally you would also have to do so before 30 days prior to check-in to avoid them going into holding... but DVC appears to still be waiving holding for resort closure cancellations).

When borrowing points, you initially pick a specific date that you're borrowing them for. But, normally, if you cancel that reservation, those points go back into your "pool" of current UY points, available to book with, but no longer associated with a specific date.

This is what is rubbing some the wrong way... that DVC is returning points to their original UY due to resort closure cancellations when those points would normally remain in the current UY. But as some have illustrated, DVC's reasons for doing this may actually be to help solve the inventory balance issue rather than to just "sprinkle some pixie dust."

If all of those borrowed points were going to expire at the end of the current UY, then there might be a LOT of people trying to use them immediately once DVC opens to avoid losing them. By returning them to the original UY (worth noting again that the points would never have been borrowed in the first place if the affected reservations hadn't been possible), they are perhaps spreading out the use of those points across several years to mitigate the overage. Because it's as if those points had never been borrowed, they can also be banked to the next UY, which some people will do and further spread out their use.

I think DVC's analysis may very well be that it's better to spread the effects out over time to "flatten the curve" so they don't get overwhelmed with everyone trying to use those points all at once. Sound familiar?

 

[Sandisw]

I would describe the distinction slightly different:

Current UY points lose ability to bank after the deadline whether or not they have been used to book a reservation. If they have been used to book a reservation after that will occur after the 8-month mark (banking deadline), they could still be banked if you cancel that reservation before the banking deadline (normally you would also have to do so before 30 days prior to check-in to avoid them going into holding... but DVC appears to still be waiving holding for resort closure cancellations).

When borrowing points, you initially pick a specific date that you're borrowing them for. But, normally, if you cancel that reservation, those points go back into your "pool" of current UY points, available to book with, but no longer associated with a specific date.

This is what is rubbing some the wrong way... that DVC is returning points to their original UY due to resort closure cancellations when those points would normally remain in the current UY. But as some have illustrated, DVC's reasons for doing this may actually be to help solve the inventory balance issue rather than to just "sprinkle some pixie dust."

If all of those borrowed points were going to expire at the end of the current UY, then there might be a LOT of people trying to use them immediately once DVC opens to avoid losing them. By returning them to the original UY (worth noting again that the points would never have been borrowed in the first place if the affected reservations hadn't been possible), they are perhaps spreading out the use of those points across several years to mitigate the overage. Because it's as if those points had never been borrowed, they can also be banked to the next UY, which some people will do and further spread out their use.

I think DVC's analysis may very well be that it's better to spread the effects out over time to "flatten the curve" so they don't get overwhelmed with everyone trying to use those points all at once. Sound familiar?

I agree and I think you are right it’s why people are rubbed the wrong way. I do believe it’s because it spread is out.

But, I the difference really is that someone whose reservation gets canceled, whether by themselves or Disney, doesn’t impact the banking deadline. It expired at 8 months, so as you say, it doesn’t matter,

Borrowed points are stuck normally, but that happens only when the owner cancels, If the owner didn’t book, those points would not be borrowed, and since the owner is not doing the canceling, it may have been decided that they had to go back, as it didn’t fit the criteria of the rule as written.

I see it as the same reason they waived holding because the holding penalty says it occurs when the member cancels. Since members didn’t so in most cases, penalizing them didn't seem to be in line with the rules, again as written,

 

[dismedvc]

I think DVC's analysis may very well be that it's better to spread the effects out over time to "flatten the curve" so they don't get overwhelmed with everyone trying to use those points all at once. Sound familiar?

However, as I have posted before, I think Disney/DVC "jumped the gun" by returning borrowed points before they knew how long the resorts were going to be closed. If the resorts open before those borrowed points would have expired, then returning those borrowed points to their original use year will help as you say to "flatten the curve", but if the closures last so long that the borrowed points would have expired, then by Disney/DVC returning those borrowed points they caused a larger problem in the future.

My stance has always been Disney/DCV should have let all points from whatever source (Banked points, borrowed points, or current UY points beyond the banking deadline) be held to the rules and dealt with them all in the future once they had more information.
At that point, they could have decided to return Borrowed points that had not expired, but they should have not done it now.

 

[Sandisw]

However, as I have posted before, I think Disney/DVC "jumped the gun" by returning borrowed points before they knew how long the resorts were going to be closed. If the resorts open before those borrowed points would have expired, then returning those borrowed points to their original use year will help as you say to "flatten the curve", but if the closures last so long that the borrowed points would have expired, then by Disney/DVC returning those borrowed points they caused a larger problem in the future.
My stance has always been Disney/DCV should have let all points from whatever source (Banked points, borrowed points, or current UY points beyond the banking deadline) expire and then dealt with them all the same in the future.

It is true that had they done nothing at all, made no rules changes, then 100% of the affected points would have overloaded the 2019 UY. It would have impacted more owners. Lose lose for both the system and the owners.

Moving borrowed points back left less than 100% of affected points crowding the 2019 UY.

Since they do have a duty to balance supply and demand, no one can argue the move did in fact lesson the overcrowding in the 2019 UY.

The real problem is the move appears unfair.

 

[dismedvc]

It is true that had they done nothing at all, made no rules changes, then 100% of the affected points would have overloaded the 2019 UY. It would have impacted more owners. Lose lose for both the system and the owners.

Moving borrowed points back left less than 100% of affected points crowding the 2019 UY.

However, if they do not reopen in the 2019 UY, they caused a larger problem in the future. That is why I say they "jumped the gun" before they had all the facts.

ETA; I hope they are able to reopen soon, but again they should have waited to see if that is the case before changing the rules.

 

[Deploraboo]

Seeing 2019 banked point contracts hit the market here.

 

[Sandisw]

However, if they do not reopen in the 2019 UY, they caused a larger problem in the future. That is why I say they "jumped the gun" before they had all the facts.

Possibly, but doing nothing ensured the 2019 UY stayed unbalanced, and that, IMO, would be ignoring their responsibility to mitigate damages, even if it is short term.

 

[dismedvc]

Possibly, but doing nothing ensured the 2019 UY stayed unbalanced, and that, IMO, would be ignoring their responsibility to mitigate damages, even if it is short term.

If they do not open in the 2019 UY it does not matter how unbalanced that UY was. By doing what they did before they had all the facts was in my opinion irresponsible, even if they did it because they hoped it would "mitigate the damages"
They could have waited until they had the facts

 

[Sandisw]

If they do not open in the 2019 UY it does not matter how unbalanced that UY was. By doing what they did before they had all the facts was in my opinion irresponsible, even if they did it because they hoped it would "mitigate the damages"
They could have waited until they had the facts

I guess this is where we disagree, They couldn’t wait because by that time, and the nature of DVC bookings, it may have been too late to have the real impact.

Again, we really don’t know why they made the decision, We assume it was for short term availability but that is really just a guess. There could be some other reason in play that forced them to take that action.

 

[Grumpy by Birth]

What if they allowed those who lost points during the closure because of missing their banking deadline to have those points banked to their next UY.... BUT they go into holding status. This would mean they can only be used for reservations that are still available at 60 days from check-in.

Perhaps that could offset the availability/inventory concern? If a reservation is still available that late, then others have had ample opportunity to book those nights. If they didn't, that could be considered "on them." So, allowing those who lost points during the shutdown to book those nights could be considered an acceptable option.

Granted, those who lost points because of missing banking deadlines might not consider this much of a compensation if there's no availability and they still lose their points at the end of the next UY. But at least there was a CHANCE they could get some relief from the situation "subject to availability." And it seems to me, that would be better than nothing.

Another possibility I thought of (maybe not even remotely legal or feasible, but perhaps worth at least considering):

What if they create a new, modified type of point status? Points lost due to COVID-related closures of the resorts could be put into a special account for that member. These points would have the 60-day booking restriction (the same as points in holding), but would not expire at the end of the current UY. They could either establish an expiration date X # of years in the future, or they could even be usable for the life of the contract. But they could only be used when there's availability at 60 days out.

Disney would probably market this as "Holding+" or some other pixie-dust laced name.

If it's legal, this could allow owners to not lose points. They would, in fact, get the benefit of extended expiration of those points (that's the PLUS!). But because they would be subject to the 60-day restriction like holding points are, they could only be used for rooms that were likely to go empty anyway. This could help to minimize the impact of excess points in the system by spreading out their use over multiple years and, even then, only when there's "last minute" availability.

If owners with unaffected points don't book a room by the 60-day mark and subsequently lose points due to lack of availability, one could make the argument that this is already a risk if you don't book early. It's possible that owners with these special points might never get to use them if there's no availability, but at least there's a chance they could. And because the availability would only be there as a result of others "snoozing" there wouldn't be a lot of room for them to complain because we all signed on to the "subject to availability" clause and waiting that long to book would be knowingly accepting the risk that rooms might not be available.

 

[Ilyo]

I am in the same boat. I have a split reservation May 7-12...3 bedroom grand villas...split between 2 contracts..a June UY and a Dec UY. Just spoke with MS and they advised that current policy is my borrowed points will go back to original UY...so Dec contract is okay for now...issue is looks like I may lose 160 points from my June UY contract if I dont use by May 31st. MS advised they are going week to week but only option I have if resorts still closed is by April 17th convert them all into an RCI contract and then could use at some point in next year.

Tried reading through all the 13 pages of responses here...Any May UY members here? What have you done? Anyone lost points or done anything different?

I know moving everyones points into next year would kill the system, but am hoping Disney compensates in some fashion for those that lose points due to resorts closed before their UY.

Thanks