Looks like I’m about to LOSE the value of my 200 points!

[Soap_1984]

I am sorry you are feeling that way, Unfortunately, there are a lot of new owners....not saying you are one of them...that do believe things about DVC that are not accurate.

Those of us who have been around a long time have seen it over and over again and just try to point it out for others who may be confused,

You are right, DVCM gets a management fee from the dues. But dues only cover the expenses of DVC resorts, so the whatever money from that goes to TWDC is to cover things like CM salaries assigned to DVC, etc.

So what are they paying for now? Not operating the skyliner, monorail, buses, paying cast members etc.

 

[Sandisw]

So what are they paying for now? Not operating the skyliner, monorail, buses, paying cast members etc.

Not sure if this a real question, or sarcasm.

 

[nagshead]

Are you serious with this? Anyone who has been paying attention should have figured out that things would not be open by Easter.

I am very serious. A week ago things looked much different. I’m not even sure Florida had put in a shelter in place order a week ago. People were still flocking to their beaches a week or ten days ago. I don’t think any of us really know what sort of timeline we are looking at with this. If Disney knew a week ago that they were not opening until say July 1 or whatever, then people can make plans based off of that. But no one is saying (because no one knows). Our president very publicly stated two weeks ago that he expected a lot to be back open by Easter Obviously that is not the case. But the point is a lot of people with May, June and July bookings still had hope that things would be up and running by their trip dates. Only time will tell. Then if they’re not up and running we will need to wait patiently and see what (if anything) DVC decides to do to possibly mitigate the loss of point situation.

 

[Soap_1984]

Not sure if this a real question, or sarcasm.

Well, ostensibly, disneys estimate of dues required to run the resorts having the resorts open for the entire year. If they are closed for three months, and a specific group was to use the resorts at this time, what are the dues that were paid for this year being used for currently?

 

[soniam]

I am not a current owner but am in the process of looking for a resale contract. However, I have rented points before and have two trips this year with rented points (July and November). I knew when I rented those points that there was no refund, period. We will actually be out real money if the hotels are still closed. I could possibly ask the broker to see what the owner could do, but that wasn't what I agreed to when I rented the points. Plus, it might just put the owner into the situation that a lot of you are in. I would just be passing the buck. I gambled on saving money, so now I might be paying the price. I am not complaining about the situation, but DVC owners are not the only people losing out here. I am sure other renters have had to suck it up and lose the money. I probably could have gotten trip insurance, but I don't know if would have covered this anyway. As owners, you still have some worth in your contract and probably have or will save money in the long run, even if this year's points are lost. The situation is just foobar for everyone. There is always a price to pay; it's just a matter of paying it now or paying in the future with future trips that possibly can't be booked. I hope everyone comes out ok and stays happy and healthy.

 

[Sandisw]

Well, ostensibly, disneys estimate of dues required to run the resorts having the resorts open for the entire year. If they are closed for three months, and a specific group was to use the resorts at this time, what are the dues that were paid for this year being used for currently?

So far, Disney CMs are being paid, and resorts, running or not still have expenses.

The way I understand it is that the budget, like any budget is prepared based on expected expenses, from known information.

So, when the 2021 budget is determined, they will look at actual expenses and if their is a surplus, according to the POS...if I am reading correctly it can be put in the capital reserves budget to pit toward future expenses,

Now, we could be looking at larger than normal, so it’s possible it’s dealt with differently.

 

[_auroraborealis_]

What is being paid for right now from dues?

Well...

• CMs are being paid through 4/18 or 4/19. The bulk of transpo costs are CM wages, not operating expense of vehicles.
• Property tax.
• Maintenance - right now it is deferred, but you betcha it will happen, and there will be new stuff needed as a result of shutdown. Pools drained? Plumbing off? That has an impact after a month and there will be additional measures needed to reopen.
• Capital reserves - dues fund cap reserves, which eventually fund refurbs.

The resort is not magically without expenses as it closes. And it has some new expenses upcoming as a result of closure.

 

[Sandisw]

I am very serious. A week ago things looked much different. I’m not even sure Florida had put in a shelter in place order a week ago. People were still flocking to their beaches a week or ten days ago. I don’t think any of us really know what sort of timeline we are looking at with this. If Disney knew a week ago that they were not opening until say July 1 or whatever, then people can make plans based off of that. But no one is saying (because no one knows). Our president very publicly stated two weeks ago that he expected a lot to be back open by Easter Obviously that is not the case. But the point is a lot of people with May, June and July bookings still had hope that things would be up and running by their trip dates. Only time will tell. Then if they’re not up and running we will need to wait patiently and see what (if anything) DVC decides to do to possibly mitigate the loss of point situation.

There was hope for sure in the messages, but the response from DVC from what they would be doing in terms of changes and cancellations was very clear.

Waiving holding, borrowed points returned, and no banking rule changes,

Given that, regardless of what was being said to provide optimism, owners had what they needed to make a decision regarding the risks of not canceling if one was approaching a banking deadline.

I think those with Sept UY are now in that same position and will need to decide by the end of the month on whether or not they want to risk keeping a reservation with bankable points.

 

[Soap_1984]

What is being paid for right now from dues?

Well...

• CMs are being paid through 4/18 or 4/19. The bulk of transpo costs are CM wages, not operating expense of vehicles.
• Property tax.
• Maintenance - right now it is deferred, but you betcha it will happen, and there will be new stuff needed as a result of shutdown. Pools drained? Plumbing off? That has an impact after a month and there will be additional measures needed to reopen.
• Capital reserves - dues fund cap reserves, which eventually fund refurbs.

The resort is not magically without expenses as it closes. And it has some new expenses upcoming as a result of closure.

oh sorry I didn't read my own post where I said there are magically no more expenses my bad. My point, which I thought would be clear to anyone with 4 active brain cells, was there are fewer expenses. So when they furlough employees, is the expense side of the income statement the exact same as when they are operating fully? Not no expenses, fewer expenses.

The focus in this thread is bizarre.

 

[_auroraborealis_]

oh sorry I didn't read my own post where I said there are magically no more expenses my bad. My point, which I thought would be clear to anyone with 4 active brain cells, was there are fewer expenses. So when they furlough employees, is the expense side of the income statement the exact same as when they are operating fully? Not no expenses, fewer expenses.

The focus in this thread is bizarre.

I genuinely don't think expenses are down that much. When I see people talk about dues, they seem to be thinking it should be mostly refunded. Even if you assumed massive savings, at best it's 1/12 of the dues, so for somewhere like RIV that is max 69 cents. And for sure cap reserve and property tax wouldn't be part of that 1/12, so it's actually less.

Looking at a past BWV budget, cap reserves was nearly a buck a point, and property taxes in the $1.50pp range. So at 7.37pp, reduce that by 2.50, divide by 12, and you're already down to only 40 cents.

And that assumes reduction in management costs and MS, and obviously that's not happening. MS costs are stable or increasing.

 

[piccolopat]

Even our own president was saying a week ago he expected everything to begin opening by Easter. So a week ago it was reasonable to think that things were heading in the right direction and Disney would not still be closed in to May. Now it appears to be a very real possibility. Only time will tell. If Disney has announced by March 31 that they would not be opening until June 1 then I’m sure all August use year would have banked.

When I heard him speak, he said he would love to see things starting to open by Easter. That's a bit different than saying he expected things to be open. His wish may have been unrealistic but I think he was just trying to give people hope that this will be over in the near future. At this point, I think we would be lucky if things were opened by Mother's Day or even Memorial Day.

 

[LAX]

If they do nothing I'm literally done with disney I'm never spending another dollar on anything disney. If everyone who isn't losing points feels so bad why not take a few of everyone's points and sprinkle them to those losing thousands of dollars?

They have cash, they have access to cash rooms at dvc resorts they can easily do something. At the end of the day this boils down to money; I've spent probably $30k at disney the last 4 years not including paying for my points, if they do nothing I will literally never spend another dollar and the magic will most certainly be gone.

I really don't want to hear about a level of risk. Disney chose to close, then disney had to close this isn't some freak accident I had that prevented me from going. The hotels aren't open you can't make everyone whole except your most loyal customers, it would be a horrendous business decision.

I think voting with your wallet is sometimes the best way to voice your dissatisfaction. However, as soon as you put your DVC contract up for sale, there is going to be another one lined up to replace you. From DVD/DVC's perspective, once they have sold you a direct contract, they have your money already. You are no longer viewed as their "best" customer. If you bought resale, they literally don't care (I am a resale owner for the record). While the parks division may value your regular patronage, there are literally millions (if not more) of people who have never been to Disney parks even once and are willing to fight the crowds to give Disney their money.

The point is that Disney *may* not care. However, I suspect they will end up doing something so that they at least can claim they have tried. I hope I am wrong here, but the eventual solution may not make everyone whole, especially those who are faced with heavy losses.

LAX

 

[tjm236]

Sending borrowed points will free up more rooms this UY to be available for booking, for those with expiring points.

Sending borrowed points may indeed overload the system next year but DVC May have decided that based on actual numbers, the effect later was less impactful then keeping them in the UY that is already losing 20% of their rooms,

Sending back borrowed points that would have expired while the resorts are closed can only hurt the system going forward. The only good it does is help out those who were using borrowed points and had to cancel their reservations.

Having said that, I think they would be taking less heat if they had not done anything because It would have appeared fairer,

I agree. Unborrowing and late banking are both bad for the system for points that would just expire during the closure. Just don't do either until you figure out a solution. Or substantiate what you're doing with numbers that support it. Not that I expect them to share all of the details, but even if they just gave some idea of why they made this decision, it would be easier to stomach.

 

[Sandisw]

Sending back borrowed points that would have expired while the resorts are closed can only hurt the system going forward. The only good it does is help out those who were using borrowed points and had to cancel their reservations.

I agree. Unborrowing and late banking are both bad for the system for points that would just expire during the closure. Just don't do either until you figure out a solution. Or substantiate what you're doing with numbers that support it. Not that I expect them to share all of the details, but even if they just gave some idea of why they made this decision, it would be easier to stomach.

It could hurt the future, but leaving all points there was a guarantee that the current UY was way overloaded, since it is the current UY that is currently without rooms.

At least the move will help with short term availability because less points will be competing now,

 

[dismedvc]

Sending back borrowed points that would have expired while the resorts are closed can only hurt the system going forward. The only good it does is help out those who were using borrowed points and had to cancel their reservations.

I agree. Unborrowing and late banking are both bad for the system for points that would just expire during the closure. Just don't do either until you figure out a solution. Or substantiate what you're doing with numbers that support it. Not that I expect them to share all of the details, but even if they just gave some idea of why they made this decision, it would be easier to stomach.

It could hurt the future, but leaving all points there was a guarantee that the current UY was way overloaded, since it is the current UY that is currently without rooms.

At least the move will help with short term availability because less points will be competing now,

The key is the bold type in tjm236's post. Borrowed points that would have expired would not have added to the current UY overload if they had not been moved back to their original UY. They would be gone, so moving them back will not help with short term availability.

However, as tjm256 said, "sending back borrowed points that would have expired while the resorts are closed can only hurt the system going forward."

Could not agree more with tjm256's statement "Just don't do either until you figure out a solution.

 

[Sandisw]

The key is the bold type in tjm236's post. Borrowed points that would have expired would not have added to the current UY overload if they had not been moved back to their original UY. They would be gone, so moving them back will not help with short term availability.

However, as tjm256 said, "sending back borrowed points that would have expired while the resorts are closed can only hurt the system going forward."

Could not agree more with tjm256's statement "Just don't do either until you figure out a solution.

That is just not true. Leaving all points expiring in the 2019 UY puts all the points from March/April/May cancellations competing with the banked points and the current UY points for the SAME rooms.

Let’s take an Aug UY.if there are 100,000 banked, current UY, and borrowed points created from cancellations.

If nothing was done, than all 100,000 points would be competing for rooms through July 31st.

Now, you take 30,000 of those points and shift then back to be used Aug 1st, 2020 on, you now have only 70,000 points competing for rooms to July 31st,

By sending borrowed back, whether you agree or not, DiD help those with banked points with the same UY to have more rooms to choose from before July 31st.

Not sure I can explain it any better. Like I said, it would have appeared fairer, but from a standpoint of rooms and availability it was absolutely the right move. JMO

 

[dismedvc]

That is just not true. Leaving all points expiring in the 2019 UY puts all the points from March/April/May cancellations competing with the banked points and the current UY points for the SAME rooms.
By sending borrowed back, whether you agree or not, DiD help those with banked points with the same UY to have more rooms to choose from before July 31st.
Not sure I can explain it any better. Like I said, it would have appeared fairer, but from a standpoint of rooms and availability it was absolutely the right move. JMO

I think we are trying to explain two different things. I am not saying they should leave ALL borrowed points expiring in the 2019 UY in the UY they were borrowed into. I am saying they should have let the borrowed points that would have expired under the published rules while the resorts were closed, actually expire. Your example regarding August UY borrowed points is only correct if the resorts are open before July 31st.

The borrowed points that would have expired, are from members who were using borrowed points to travel late in their UY. I think they should be treated the same as current UY points from members traveling late in their UY, and Banked points from members traveling late in their use year.

Once DVCM knows when the resorts will reopen, they THEN could have decided to send back ONLY the borrowed points that had not expired, so those non-expired borrowed points would not be competing for the same rooms.
At that time they could also decide what, if anything, to do about expired points from all sources.

I have used the term DVCM "jumped the gun" by returning borrowed points before they knew how long the resorts were going to be closed, while tjm256 said "Just don't do either until you figure out a solution". I think both of us are making the same point. DVCM should not have made the quick decision on returning borrowed points, before they had more information. By making that quick decision, they may have caused a situation where they cannot be equally fair to all members with expired (or should have expired) points.

 

[Sandisw]

I think we are trying to explain two different things. I am not saying they should leave ALL borrowed points expiring in the 2019 UY in the UY they were borrowed into. I am saying they should have let the borrowed points that would have expired under the published rules while the resorts were closed, actually expire. Your example regarding August UY borrowed points is only correct if the resorts are open before July 31st.

The borrowed points that would have expired, are from members who were using borrowed points to travel late in their UY. I think they should be treated the same as current UY points from members traveling late in their UY, and Banked points from members traveling late in their use year.

Once DVCM knows when the resorts will reopen, they THEN could have decided to send back ONLY the borrowed points that had not expired, so those non-expired borrowed points would not be competing for the same rooms.
At that time they could also decide what, if anything, to do about expired points from all sources.

I have used the term DVCM "jumped the gun" by returning borrowed points before they knew how long the resorts were going to be closed, while tjm256 said "Just don't do either until you figure out a solution". I think both of us are making the same point. DVCM should not have made the quick decision on returning borrowed points, before they had more information.

The only thing I will add is that you are then basing decisions on UYs and not the type of point.

Having rules that apply to one owners borrowed points and not another owner, then makes it about the owner and not the system.

Right now, rules are consistent based on point type regardless of UY.

For example, the first closing was until April 1st. That would mean that only April UY borrowed Points would be effected.

Those with June UY borrowed would have then still been able to book May, and competing with those with June UY banked points and current UY points beyond banking, along with borrowed points from canceled March trips that weren't April UY.

So, right now, the only borrowed points that would have expired due to closing, including the extended is April UY.

Therefore, not moving any borrowed points from June UY forward would be taking up rooms from May on...the same rooms that those with banked points are competing for,

My May trip was canceled and they allowed me to move my trip to October because I had my points moved back to my Aug 2020 UY,

Had they not, I would have used them to book in July. You can’t argue that my taking that room in July wouldn’t have impacted effected the owner whose banked points also had to be used by July 31st.

Plus, by moving points forward, it may now allow them to make some special exceptions for April and June UY To have some extension if they have less points competing for rooms this summer.

Again, I don’t know if I can explain it any better, than If 2019 UY is the one without rooms, you want to get more points moved out of that UY so less are competing for the rooms that will be left,

The only way your plan makes sense is if they shut down all future booking so no one is competing.

As long as those with borrowed points could still book rooms, they WERE competing to take rooms from those with banked points and points beyond banking window,

 

[dismedvc]

As long as those with borrowed points could still book rooms, they WERE competing to take rooms from those with banked points and points beyond banking window,

I agree. Returning borrowed points will increase the ability to book a room in May, June, and July, but that is not the same as increasing the ability to actually stay in a room if the resorts remain closed. If the resorts remain closed for an extended period, what they did will cause even a larger problem next year. (Not sure of an exact way to define next year)

Next year there will almost certainly be a far higher number of banked points than normal. (I would think most members with August or September UY's that had points they had not used by the date of the closure, banked or will bank those points.) Later UY's will also probably have a higher than normal amount of banking. (Some posts have even indicated members are calling MS to Bank Early)
In addition, there will also be a much smaller number of borrowed points removed from next year, since borrowed points are being returned.

Basically, I think DVCM just "kicked the can down the road" with their quick decision, and I wish they had held off making any decision until they had more information. Especially since their current position is:
"Some Members may have questions about reservation cancellations involving Points that are set to expire soon. At this time, we are evaluating the banking and expiration policy and the use of certain Points impacted by the closures. As a part of our evaluation process, we need to be considerate of the impact any changes could have on future inventory availability for the Membership overall. A decision will be made when we better understand how long COVID-19 will impact our operations."

 

[Sandisw]

I agree. Returning borrowed points will increase the ability to book a room in May, June, and July, but that is not the same as increasing the ability to actually stay in a room if the resorts remain closed. If the resorts remain closed for an extended period, what they did will cause even a larger problem next year. (Not sure of an exact way to define next year)

Next year there will almost certainly be a far higher number of banked points than normal. (I would think most members with August or September UY's that had points they had not used by the date of the closure, banked or will bank those points.) Later UY's will also probably have a higher than normal amount of banking. (Some posts have even indicated members are calling MS to Bank Early)
In addition, there will also be a much smaller number of borrowed points removed from next year, since borrowed points are being returned.

Basically, I think DVCM just "kicked the can down the road" with their quick decision, and I wish they had held off making any decision until they had more information. Especially since their current position is:
"Some Members may have questions about reservation cancellations involving Points that are set to expire soon. At this time, we are evaluating the banking and expiration policy and the use of certain Points impacted by the closures. As a part of our evaluation process, we need to be considerate of the impact any changes could have on future inventory availability for the Membership overall. A decision will be made when we better understand how long COVID-19 will impact our operations."

Possibly, but failing to do anything to limit an oversupply in points in the short term, when you know it would be at least 2 weeks, would have been ignoring the problem.

We can agree that it wasn’t an easy call, and since we don’t have the numbers...maybe there were not as many borrowed points in play compared to the others,,,we can only speculate that DVCM made the call that made the most sense right now.

Like I said, unless you shut down bookings, the move did reduce the number of points competing for rooms in the 2019 UY.