Looks like I’m about to LOSE the value of my 200 points!

[Maistre Gracey]

Are those points permanently unborrowed, or can you borrow them again if the resorts open tomorrow? If you can borrow them again, the argument is moot.

 

[dismedvc]

Having rules that apply to one owners borrowed points and not another owner, then makes it about the owner and not the system.

The decision could have waited to be made once the date the resorts were going to reopen was known. At that time DVCM could have decided that if owners wanted to cancel, borrowed points would be returned for any reservations starting on or after that reopening date. In that case all owners would be treated the same, although owners whose borrowed points expired while the resorts were closed would join the group of all other owners who had points expire. DVCM could have then decided what, if anything, to do with expired points from all sources, which seems the most fair to me.

ETA: it was a tough call and I am sure DVCM did what they thought was best at the time given the information they had. I just wonder if now in retrospect they wish they would have waited. (Hindsight is 20-20)

 

[Sandisw]

The decision could have waited to be made once the date the resorts were going to reopen was known. At that time DVCM could have decided that if owners wanted to cancel, borrowed points would be returned for any reservations starting on or after that reopening date. In that case all owners would be treated the same, although owners whose borrowed points expired while the resorts were closed would join the group of all other owners who had points expire. DVCM could have then decided what, if anything, to do with expired points from all sources

The decision was made when the resorts had an opening date. It was made in March with an April 1st opening date, so they had an end date when this all started.

Borrowed points are attached to future inventory and putting them back was a good first step in spreading out the pool of points that was created by the resort closure,

As an owners, I am happy they did what they did and feel it was the best move at this time.

But, that is the thing about decisions none of us have a say in. We all get to decide if we agree with it or not,

 

[CanadaDisney05]

I started typing this out but then I figured maybe a chart format would work better. None of us really knows what the data that the DVC higher ups are looking at looks like. We keep talking about moving points from this use year, to next use year, and inventory shortages this year vs next year. I know pretty much everyone here knows that there are multiple use years, but I think when theorizing, it's hard to keep track of that in our brains.

Below is a quick chart based on a couple of assumptions:

1) Resorts re-open on July 1, 2020
2) This relates to cancellations made between April 1 and June 30, 2020

Leave Borrowed Points in Current Use Year

Move Borrowed Points Back to Original Use Year

Use Year	1st Day of Use	Last Day of Use	Total Days of Use	1st Day of Use	Last Day of Use	Total Days of Use
February	7/1/2020	1/31/2021	214	7/1/2020	1/31/2023	944
March	7/1/2020	2/28/2021	242	7/1/2020	2/28/2023	972
April	7/1/2020	3/31/2021	273	7/1/2020	3/31/2023	1003
June	Expired	Expired	0	7/1/2020	5/31/2022	699
August	7/1/2020	7/31/2020	30	7/1/2020	7/31/2022	760
September	7/1/2020	8/31/2020	61	7/1/2020	8/31/2022	791
October	7/1/2020	9/30/2020	91	7/1/2020	9/30/2022	821
December	7/1/2020	11/30/2020	152	7/1/2020	11/30/2022	882

Based on this chart, here is my observation:

If they kept to the normal rules and didn't move borrowed points back into their original use year, those with June, August, September and possibly October Use Year's would more than likely see points expire. This would suck for those owners, but be beneficial to the system.

However, what that does is creates a major log jam between July 1, 2020 and March 31, 2021. Between that period, you will have 3 categories of bookings

1) Normal bookings (pre-covid)
2) Those with banked points that are set to expire (due to cancellations).
3) Those with borrowed points that are set to expire (due to cancellations).

As has been discussed at lengths, there is not much DVC can do about the first two. However, by allowing borrowed points to be moved back into their original use year, your taking that 3rd category out of the picture for the most part. Yes, this will create some extra points in the system for the next few years, but these points now have a much longer shelf life. They won't all be used at once which is easier for the system to absorb.

Every year, there are a number of points that expire naturally, and these end up getting used by DVC to rent out for cash reservations for their own profit. The extra points in the system over the next few years should be absorbed (atleast partially) by these expiring points. The real loser at the end of the day is DVC who will have much lower inventory they can sell for their profit.

 

[Grumpy by Birth]

Are those points permanently unborrowed, or can you borrow them again if the resorts open tomorrow? If you can borrow them again, the argument is moot.

My understanding is that the borrowed points that were returned to their original UY are treated as if they were never borrowed to begin with. That would imply that you could now borrow them (note, I didn't say "re-borrow" since it's as if they were never borrowed) back into UY19 if resorts open.

So, theoretically, those points could still be in competition for rooms this summer if resorts re-open, but that (as with most DVC scenarios) depends on the actions/behaviors of the members.

Purely speculation, but I would guess that most people would count themselves lucky that the points were returned to UY20 and be less inclined to turn around and borrow those points into UY19, which will give them a much more limited shelf life, rather than leaving them in UY20 where they can be used for longer and even be banked into UY21 for an extended lifespan.

"fool me once..."

 

[Sandisw]

My understanding is that the borrowed points that were returned to their original UY are treated as if they were never borrowed to begin with. That would imply that you could now borrow them (note, I didn't say "re-borrow" since it's as if they were never borrowed) back into UY19 if resorts open.

So, theoretically, those points could still be in competition for rooms this summer if resorts re-open, but that (as with most DVC scenarios) depends on the actions/behaviors of the members.

Purely speculation, but I would guess that most people would count themselves lucky that the points were returned to UY20 and be less inclined to turn around and borrow those points into UY19, which will give them a much more limited shelf life, rather than leaving them in UY20 where they can be used for longer and even banked into UY21 for an extended lifespan.

"fool me once..."

I can confirm that you can indeed borrow them again. My March trip was on borrowed points. They put them back for me into my Dec UY.

But, my group knew we would go in August, just not dates, so once we decided I borrowed all by 16 back. So, technically, had they not done it, I would have booked a few nights at BLT and done a split stay vs, just at BRV for all 4 nights.

And yes, i Knew I was putting them at risk again, but decided to do it anyway.

 

[dismedvc]

Below is a quick chart based on a couple of assumptions:

1) Resorts re-open on July 1, 2020
2) This relates to cancellations made between April 1 and June 30, 2020

Great analysis.
Especially if your assumptions turn out to be true.
If they are, I agree with you that allowing borrowed points to be returned to their original use year will help the overall system.
(I would have liked it if that members who borrowed for a reservation in the last 4 months of their use year and would have had those borrowed points expire while the resorts were closed did not qualify, but there are probably not that many who fall into that category, so it would probably just add a mostly irrelevant complication)

However, even if your assumptions turn out to be true, members with April and June UY's who had points from their 2019 UY expire are probably not going to be happy that they will be competing against returned borrowed points in the future. That assumes DVCM does not do anything in the future for members with those UY's who had points expire. As you mentioned, returned borrowed points can still be banked, so they can be used over the next two plus years. It might be what is best for the membership as a whole, but not for members in those two UYs.

If the parks do open July 1st, members with an August UY and banked or expiring points would have to book before July 31st to avoid losing those points, so if returning borrowed points frees up some July availability it will be good for members in that situation. (Assuming they could travel in July) Similar logic for members with a September UY, except they have until August 31st to use their banked or expiring points.

If the closures last longer than you assumed, potentially members with Aug, Sept, & Oct UYs who had points from their 2019 UY expire would be added to the list of members that are unhappy about competing against returned borrowed points in the future. Although, members with those UYs did have the opportunity to "save" their current year (2019 UY) points by banking before the deadline once they new resorts were closing in March. However, they will lose points they banked from their 2018 UY if the resorts do not open before those banked points expire.

I understand why DVCM is waiting for more information before announcing a decision, however, it is frustrating that by not making a decision they are almost forcing members to bank if their banking deadline was/is approaching.

After more information is known, hopefully DVCM can find a way to more or less equally "share the pain" across UY's. Right now, the February & March UYs are coming out best purely by chance.

 

[McCrae]

Can anyone provide more information here?
I have 200 points that will expire on Aug 1, 2020. I was booked at Grand California but now that will obviously be canceled by Disney. They are not willing to allow an extension so I can use my points after Aug. 1st. It will be virtually impossible to use them by then with all that is going on right now. They will not budge! Am I the only one having this problem? I’m so disappointed as a DVC owner since 2008 I expected more than this.

DVC have said that they will review their position on how to handle expired points once they know the scale of the problem. It's too early to tell how many members are impacted. In the circumstances I think this is a reasonable response.

 

[dsnymnkyuncle]

I wonder about the phrasing of this. If I understand the system then it is not traveling so late in the use year but using points so late in the use year. For example I have a scheduled trip at the end of June and the all the points are borrowed. If open the trip will be great, if Disney cancels the trip the points are going to go back to next use year.

Is this the same as what you mean? Or is/was there a change in policy here?

The harsh lesson that owning DVC is not the same as staying a cash guest and not being able to get the same level of support.

The harsh lesson that traveling late in your UY can be even more risky than you think because things can happen outside of your control that one never heard of or expected,

The harsh lesson that TWDC is not responsible to support DVC in any way and we as owners have no right to demand they do, no matter how we feel,

The harsh lesson that we have to trust that DVCM is making decisions based on whats best for the system, even when it’s a hard pill to swallow personally, especially when we have no real say in the ultimate decsion,

 

[dsnymnkyuncle]

I have no numbers to back this up but I am convinced that the Disney right to book member rooms not booked is the driving force in the reality that getting last minutes reservations is nearly impossible. Without knowing or having some reliable guestimate about those numbers really makes this impossible.

I don't know the status of cash booked member rooms outside the one week time period Disney is cancelling. Yet this would seem key to the member issues.

That is just not true. Leaving all points expiring in the 2019 UY puts all the points from March/April/May cancellations competing with the banked points and the current UY points for the SAME rooms.

Let’s take an Aug UY.if there are 100,000 banked, current UY, and borrowed points created from cancellations.

If nothing was done, than all 100,000 points would be competing for rooms through July 31st.

Now, you take 30,000 of those points and shift then back to be used Aug 1st, 2020 on, you now have only 70,000 points competing for rooms to July 31st,

By sending borrowed back, whether you agree or not, DiD help those with banked points with the same UY to have more rooms to choose from before July 31st.

Not sure I can explain it any better. Like I said, it would have appeared fairer, but from a standpoint of rooms and availability it was absolutely the right move. JMO

 

[Sandisw]

I wonder about the phrasing of this. If I understand the system then it is not traveling so late in the use year but using points so late in the use year. For example I have a scheduled trip at the end of June and the all the points are borrowed. If open the trip will be great, if Disney cancels the trip the points are going to go back to next use year.

Is this the same as what you mean? Or is/was there a change in policy here?

The borrowed points are only going back because of this situation. Normally they would not,

This situation has brought to light things can happen to cause a trip to be canceled that are above and beyond what we ever could have thought of and that traveling during those last 4 months are riskier than we may have imagined

 

[Sandisw]

I have no numbers to back this up but I am convinced that the Disney right to book member rooms not booked is the driving force in the reality that getting last minutes reservations is nearly impossible. Without knowing or having some reliable guestimate about those numbers really makes this impossible.

I don't know the status of cash booked member rooms outside the one week time period Disney is cancelling. Yet this would seem key to the member issues.

Yes, Disney is able to snag rooms at the 60 day mark to rent for cash and then the membership gets that money back, up to 2.5% cap. Money made beyond that they keep.

They also are allowed to anticipate, based on history, what might be left and pull it early,

We are 60 days out for June trips. However, given this situation, the turning over to Disney May need to be adjusted because DVCM needs it to absorb the rooms lost,

Even if we ignore the points at will expire, there had to be a lot of points that were still within banking window that need to now be booked at other times,

It does appear, though, that more rooms at SSR have opened up, so i Wonder if they put renovation on hold in order to open up for more bookings to use up those points.

 

[dsnymnkyuncle]

Thank you. If Disney did put renovations on hold, or went OT to get them done and back in service, well it would do a lot of good if Disney would tell owners that they are doing these things. I get that Disney makes money on the cash sales but when people are losing thousands on banked points it would be great PR and kind of fair for Disney to give up the cash sales to help owners in trouble out.

Yes, Disney is able to snag rooms at the 60 day mark to rent for cash and then the membership gets that money back, up to 2.5% cap. Money made beyond that they keep.

They also are allowed to anticipate, based on history, what might be left and pull it early,

We are 60 days out for June trips. However, given this situation, the turning over to Disney May need to be adjusted because DVCM needs it to absorb the rooms lost,

Even if we ignore the points at will expire, there had to be a lot of points that were still within banking window that need to now be booked at other times,

It does appear, though, that more rooms at SSR have opened up, so i Wonder if they put renovation on hold in order to open up for more bookings to use up those points.

 

[Sandisw]

Thank you. If Disney did put renovations on hold, or went OT to get them done and back in service, well it would do a lot of good if Disney would tell owners that they are doing these things. I get that Disney makes money on the cash sales but when people are losing thousands on banked points it would be great PR and kind of fair for Disney to give up the cash sales to help owners in trouble out.

The thing we have to remember is that anything that involves Disney, the company, has to be a deal that DVCM negotiates with them.

The putting back of rooms would be DVCM decisions, but involving extra rooms at the Disney resorts...not just DVC ones...would fall under the same rules as always unless something else is worked out,

IMO, given what paris and resorts is faced with right now for their own division, any type of new deal between DVCM and Disney is not going to be easy or quick.

Not saying Disney wont step up and help, but I am not convinced they would be in a hurry to help yet, especially since we don’t know how long this will last,

The other piece I thought of today is that many points are not eligible for the Disney Collection..Disney hotels,. Since that was an actual change to the program, I would assume that DVCM would have to find a way to allow ineligible points access without eliminating that restriction for all points.

 

[DebbieB]

What is being paid for right now from dues?

Well...

• CMs are being paid through 4/18 or 4/19. The bulk of transpo costs are CM wages, not operating expense of vehicles.
• Property tax.
• Maintenance - right now it is deferred, but you betcha it will happen, and there will be new stuff needed as a result of shutdown. Pools drained? Plumbing off? That has an impact after a month and there will be additional measures needed to reopen.
• Capital reserves - dues fund cap reserves, which eventually fund refurbs.

The resort is not magically without expenses as it closes. And it has some new expenses upcoming as a result of closure.

Member Services, who are probably working overtime.

Utilities - if they are not running AC as the humid weather starts, mold will be everywhere.

 

[Jelly563]

At the end of 2020, this much will be true;
- The cost of gas has gone down tremendously.
- The busses we not in use during March, April & prob May (if not longer)
- Electric / AC use reduced
- towels, sheets not washed on the daily
- Salaries will at some point placed on hold
This much already in place will have to mean a substantial reduction in dues payments for next yr.

 

[CanadaDisney05]

At the end of 2020, this much will be true;
- The cost of gas has gone down tremendously.
- The busses we not in use during March, April & prob May (if not longer)
- Electric / AC use reduced
- towels, sheets not washed on the daily
- Salaries will at some point placed on hold
This much already in place will have to mean a substantial reduction in dues payments for next yr.

If the resorts shut down for the rest of 2020, I'd expect to see a reduction in dues. If the resort is shut down for only 2 to 3 months, the cost savings may actually be pretty minimal. The vast majority of our dues goes to salaries, and so far those are still being paid. It may end up being only a few weeks of salaries being saved

 

[Sandisw]

At the end of 2020, this much will be true;
- The cost of gas has gone down tremendously.
- The busses we not in use during March, April & prob May (if not longer)
- Electric / AC use reduced
- towels, sheets not washed on the daily
- Salaries will at some point placed on hold
This much already in place will have to mean a substantial reduction in dues payments for next yr.

I do not think we will see a reduction in AC. I also think there will be extra expenses to protect certain systems from becoming damaged or an issue from non use...like many homeowners who don’t live in Florida full time,

CMs benefits are still being paid, including the employee share, so while yes, wages will be down, it could be for as little as 4 weeks.

There will be adjustments, but I’m thinking more as an offset to a 2021 dues increase. I expect them to stay flat.

 

[dsnymnkyuncle]

I have a relative who bought an expensive park model in Naples. Left in march to return to IL but left it closed up (to stop moisture) until going back in late October. So the question is not what happened but what was the worst. Bug infestation or mold and rot. Lesson learned that nobody can turn off AC in FL or stop bug treatment. Some saving will result from more consistent and probably higher temps from AC but there can well be one time closing and one time opening expense that are higher than the savings.

I do not think we will see a reduction in AC. I also think there will be extra expenses to protect certain systems from becoming damaged or an issue from non use...like many homeowners who don’t live in Florida full time,

CMs benefits are still being paid, including the employee share, so while yes, wages will be down, it could be for as little as 4 weeks.

There will be adjustments, but I’m thinking more as an offset to a 2021 dues increase. I expect them to stay flat.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

I do not think we will see a reduction in AC. I also think there will be extra expenses to protect certain systems from becoming damaged or an issue from non use...like many homeowners who don’t live in Florida full time,

CMs benefits are still being paid, including the employee share, so while yes, wages will be down, it could be for as little as 4 weeks.

There will be adjustments, but I’m thinking more as an offset to a 2021 dues increase. I expect them to stay flat.

I wonder if they've gotten all the thermostats off the motion detection? In the past few years we've walked into a room a couple of times where the air had not been running for a bit. It does start to cause dampness issues pretty quickly.