Looking at this forum...Disney got what they wanted by removing perks

It's only $1250 if you were actually going to be buying another 25 points anyway. Not if you buy an extra 25 on top of what you would have bought.
Right, but that's the whole idea. Since they grandfather in all contracts prior and in process, the extra 25 points should be part of the initial plan for those who would be affected by the change. There's no reason for anyone to buy extra points for the perks unless they were caught entirely unaware of the change. And, in that case, the perks weren't part of their purchase decision anyway.
 
Right, but that's the whole idea. Since they grandfather in all contracts prior and in process, the extra 25 points should be part of the initial plan for those who would be affected by the change. There's no reason for anyone to buy extra points for the perks unless they were caught entirely unaware of the change. And, in that case, the perks weren't part of their purchase decision anyway.
I think there's a good chance the option will not remain in effect long term to buy resale then 25 retail. I think it'll move to 50 in the next few years as the minimum to get the perks. They could do this in a number of ways. They could simply say you need 50 qualified points to qualify, they could decide not to combine resale and retail contracts, they could simply move the minimum to 50 pts, or they could create a VIP program with qualifications in this area. I'm sure we could come up with other ways and variations as well.
 
It's only $1250 if you were actually going to be buying another 25 points anyway. Not if you buy an extra 25 on top of what you would have bought.

Sure, but in reality that isn't what would happen. At this point anyone that is researching their purchase would factor that in. So I am not sure why you question the logic. It's virtually a no brainer for anyone that lives outside of Florida and has 3 to 4 people in their family that travels to Disney World. The numbers make sense (and sure they could remove the perk, I get it, but that is a chance probably well worth taking).
 
Sure, but in reality that isn't what would happen. At this point anyone that is researching their purchase would factor that in. So I am not sure why you question the logic. It's virtually a no brainer for anyone that lives outside of Florida and has 3 to 4 people in their family that travels to Disney World. The numbers make sense (and sure they could remove the perk, I get it, but that is a chance probably well worth taking).
Both positions have merit. IMO it is a no brainer for anyone who is buying a sufficient sized contract and can take the points numbers into account as part of their overall purchase strategy. Anyone buying resale who has done reasonable investigation should know this early in their process and can EASILY do this. Those that have the foresight and discipline to buy as a package by just buying slightly less retail then a 25 pt resale and who takes advantage of any of the discounts will be in roughly the same place or better than had they bought resale for all of the points. But anyone who is buying small will have an issue and will likely be paying more long term. That group is unlikely to save enough to justify boing smaller and adding the 25 pts. They are usually going to be better off buying the extra resale and foregoing the savings or in some cases if small enough, just go retail. And as I mentioned above, I doubt the option to just add 25 points to be qualified will remain a long term viable option so I would recommend most do so to give themselves longterm options even at the higher costs. In reality the likelihood is that most people will simply buy more points using this method than they would have otherwise and it will truly be an extra cost. If they do a small rental every few years they should end up roughly the same. If they just spend more points it will be a bigger expense with the questions of value that are more personal and variable. For smaller points buyers that is not necessarily a bad thing anyway and for larger points owners, 25 points more isn't make or break.
 

Both positions have merit. IMO it is a no brainer for anyone who is buying a sufficient sized contract and can take the points numbers into account as part of their overall purchase strategy. Anyone buying resale who has done reasonable investigation should know this early in their process and can EASILY do this. Those that have the foresight and discipline to buy as a package by just buying slightly less retail then a 25 pt resale and who takes advantage of any of the discounts will be in roughly the same place or better than had they bought resale for all of the points. But anyone who is buying small will have an issue and will likely be paying more long term. That group is unlikely to save enough to justify boing smaller and adding the 25 pts. They are usually going to be better off buying the extra resale and foregoing the savings or in some cases if small enough, just go retail. And as I mentioned above, I doubt the option to just add 25 points to be qualified will remain a long term viable option so I would recommend most do so to give themselves longterm options even at the higher costs. In reality the likelihood is that most people will simply buy more points using this method than they would have otherwise and it will truly be an extra cost. If they do a small rental every few years they should end up roughly the same. If they just spend more points it will be a bigger expense with the questions of value that are more personal and variable. For smaller points buyers that is not necessarily a bad thing anyway and for larger points owners, 25 points more isn't make or break.
The reality is that many (most) end up needing/using more points than they originally buy. So. Even if they don't exercise maximum strategy and shave off 25 points from their desired size for the resale contract, it's fine.

Buying 25 points direct in addition just ends up being their first add on contract.

Either way, there isn't a $4,000 dollar extra cost to buy the direct 25 point rider. There a $1250 cost above resale. The value of the 25 points is still part of the consideration.

Also. By diversifying that 25 point direct contract, a buyer could maximize value even more. An AKV resale buyer that buys a 25 point BWV contract has a fairly nifty 11 month F&W window every 3 years.
 
We just recently bought resale, and the biggest factor we bought this "timeshare" is because we knew there was a fluid resale market and that DVC contracts have held their value, if not gone up. We probably wouldn't have bought resale or direct otherwise. If Disney kills off the secondary market, they would be limiting their customer base, I think. With a family of 5 a 1 bedroom sounds a lot nicer than cramming into a single hotel room, but if DVC wasn't going to save us money, we would have limited our trips to Disney and gone some where cheaper (not a value resort at Disney).
 
We just recently bought resale, and the biggest factor we bought this "timeshare" is because we knew there was a fluid resale market and that DVC contracts have held their value, if not gone up. We probably wouldn't have bought resale or direct otherwise. If Disney kills off the secondary market, they would be limiting their customer base, I think. With a family of 5 a 1 bedroom sounds a lot nicer than cramming into a single hotel room, but if DVC wasn't going to save us money, we would have limited our trips to Disney and gone some where cheaper (not a value resort at Disney).
There's much more going on here for Disney than direct receipts.

1. CRO sales because trade outs are poor uses of points.

2. Breakage.

3. Subsidization of services such as housekeeping.

4. Subsidization of Deluxe resorts by MFs.

5. Also. During economic downturns, the resale market can change MF payers into solvent hands and kept rooms full. The ability to keep a market fluid is not a small thing.

DVC focusing only on developer fees is short-sighted. It's an example of the myopia caused by the Balkanization of company by division.

With most timeshares, the developer sale is the enchilada. Disney is different. DVC buyers are committing to spend thousands of dollars over decades AT Disney.

Even resale, that should mean something to Disney, even if it doesn't mean as much to DVC. DVC is exercising its division focus without regard to the bigger picture.

The resale market is not a threat to DVC and in fact, is quite a boon.
 
I've been lurking/researching DVC for over a year now and I'm amazed that according to what you see on these boards, Disney got exactly what they wanted by removing the perks from resales.

You are certainly right, buying a small add-on is now a new strategy that many resale buyers are considering. However I don't think this was their main goal.
A few years ago the resale market was somehow obscure, just a handful of brokers and not much information on the Internet. Now anyone with a smartphone during the tour can open a browser and look for DVC and chances he'll read about a resale market are pretty high.
Disney wants a way to say them: if you buy resale you're not really a owner. You cannot do this and you cannot do that. Limitations they introduced a while ago weren't as effective, everywhere you could read that they were a bad use of points anyway. They want to give people the feel they could be second class citizens. We are not talking about people reading this forum (who on average know more than many guides about DVC) and understand the real value of perks, but people who could buy on emotions during their trip.
 
The reality is that many (most) end up needing/using more points than they originally buy. So. Even if they don't exercise maximum strategy and shave off 25 points from their desired size for the resale contract, it's fine.

Buying 25 points direct in addition just ends up being their first add on contract.

Either way, there isn't a $4,000 dollar extra cost to buy the direct 25 point rider. There a $1250 cost above resale. The value of the 25 points is still part of the consideration.

Also. By diversifying that 25 point direct contract, a buyer could maximize value even more. An AKV resale buyer that buys a 25 point BWV contract has a fairly nifty 11 month F&W window every 3 years.
Some will need more points, many won't. IMO anyone who spends sufficient time and effort investigating DVC should be starting with a good plan. That might include resale with a retail add on, it might include X now and X again in a couple of years but for most they should have a good base starting. When we see someone who's just bought and the looking to do an add on, many times before they've even used it, generally that means that either they didn't make a good choice up front or they're acting on emotion (or both). Whether the cost is the full amount depends on their up front decisions and how they'll use it.

We just recently bought resale, and the biggest factor we bought this "timeshare" is because we knew there was a fluid resale market and that DVC contracts have held their value, if not gone up. We probably wouldn't have bought resale or direct otherwise. If Disney kills off the secondary market, they would be limiting their customer base, I think. With a family of 5 a 1 bedroom sounds a lot nicer than cramming into a single hotel room, but if DVC wasn't going to save us money, we would have limited our trips to Disney and gone some where cheaper (not a value resort at Disney).
This will be a fluid environment. If DVD is successful in pushing potential and current members to buying a larger % of retail, it will depress resale prices to some degree.

There's much more going on here for Disney than direct receipts.

1. CRO sales because trade outs are poor uses of points.

2. Breakage.

3. Subsidization of services such as housekeeping.

4. Subsidization of Deluxe resorts by MFs.

5. Also. During economic downturns, the resale market can change MF payers into solvent hands and kept rooms full. The ability to keep a market fluid is not a small thing.

DVC focusing only on developer fees is short-sighted. It's an example of the myopia caused by the Balkanization of company by division.

With most timeshares, the developer sale is the enchilada. Disney is different. DVC buyers are committing to spend thousands of dollars over decades AT Disney.

Even resale, that should mean something to Disney, even if it doesn't mean as much to DVC. DVC is exercising its division focus without regard to the bigger picture.

The resale market is not a threat to DVC and in fact, is quite a boon.
From DVD'd standpoint all they really care about is about this years and future years sales. The bigger Disney picture is less of a concern to them but it is a consideration for other Disney components. DVC members don't subsidize resorts in general or housekeeping, they simply pay for what they use though at resorts that might be struggling in terms of occupancy, one could make that argument. Every single resale purchase is a lost potential retail sale. That some will proclaim they wouldn't have bought retail doesn't change that though only a small % of those that say so would likely have followed that path.

You are certainly right, buying a small add-on is now a new strategy that many resale buyers are considering. However I don't think this was their main goal.
A few years ago the resale market was somehow obscure, just a handful of brokers and not much information on the Internet. Now anyone with a smartphone during the tour can open a browser and look for DVC and chances he'll read about a resale market are pretty high.
Disney wants a way to say them: if you buy resale you're not really a owner. You cannot do this and you cannot do that. Limitations they introduced a while ago weren't as effective, everywhere you could read that they were a bad use of points anyway. They want to give people the feel they could be second class citizens. We are not talking about people reading this forum (who on average know more than many guides about DVC) and understand the real value of perks, but people who could buy on emotions during their trip.
Timeshare sales is almost completely emotion where the tour is concerned and mostly for all purchases. I doubt we've seen the last change where restrictions are concerned.
 
You are certainly right, buying a small add-on is now a new strategy that many resale buyers are considering. However I don't think this was their main goal.
A few years ago the resale market was somehow obscure, just a handful of brokers and not much information on the Internet. Now anyone with a smartphone during the tour can open a browser and look for DVC and chances he'll read about a resale market are pretty high.
Disney wants a way to say them: if you buy resale you're not really a owner. You cannot do this and you cannot do that. Limitations they introduced a while ago weren't as effective, everywhere you could read that they were a bad use of points anyway. They want to give people the feel they could be second class citizens. We are not talking about people reading this forum (who on average know more than many guides about DVC) and understand the real value of perks, but people who could buy on emotions during their trip.
If DVC is responding to the availability of easy access to social media, then restricting perks is an even worse decision on their part.

1. We are the social media bubble and threads like THIS is what potential members will see. Nothing like having potential buyers take a peek at upset current members to close a sale.

2. Any potential buyer that looks long enough to see that the 2011 restrictions were a poor use of points anyway will also find the "buy a 25 point direct" workaround as well.

3. If DVC increased its engagement of its 20 million visitors per year, they could compete head on with the resale market without sacrificing sales at Poly.

The bottom line is that the resale market isn't a good place to buy Poly. This is especially true with the current incentives.

Where DVC is losing to resales is when someone wants a sold out resort. If DVC increased its footprint, then they could sell sold out resorts AND the current resort without the two being in conflict.

The resale and direct markets are separate markets. DVC currently addresses this by pushing Poly to the exclusion of other resorts (Aulani is a special case). Only those persistent to buy older resorts will be given heed.

THAT is why the resale market thrives.

If DVC ever decided to actually compete with the resale market, they would own it.

Why sell for a $40/point markup over ROFR when you can sell new points at a $120 markup? Volume volume volume.
 
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The waitlists (and obscene pricing) for sold out resorts are a feature to discourage them.

If DVC embraced that market, they would ROFR enough to have points avail.

Imagine if DVC had BWV and BCV, points avail today, at $130/points and they'll help you book F&W this fall?

Instead, they've decided to consistently try to kill that market, both at the direct and resale level. Life happens and so long as it does, there'll be people who need to sell their points.
 
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Now imagine that DVC offered 12 month booking for any member with at least 160 direct points. (Even if they restricted it to only 35% of rooms it would still be a great deal --- and DVC already has set an underutilized precedent on that).

Would you buy your BWV resale when the 12 monthers will outbook you in Nov?

Especially when you can buy BWV from DVC, today?

I would understand adding a benefit to buy direct rather than taking away membership for those who don't.

In fact, I've already taken advantage of DVC's current 12 month booking policy, my guaranteed Poly lake view.

But. To do any of that, they'd have to care about the sold out resort market instead of trying to throttle it.
 
The waitlists (and obscene pricing) for sold out resorts are a feature to discourage them.

If DVC embraced that market, they would ROFR enough to have points avail.

Imagine if DVC had BWV and BCV, points avail today, at $130/points and they'll help you book F&W this fall?

Instead, they've decided to consistently try to kill that market, both at the direct and resale level. Life happens and so long as it does, there'll be people who need to sell their points.
They already sell "used" points at retail prices. The only way they could add to that would be to sell what members want to move and take a commission. Marriott used to do this well before they introduced their points product. They took a sizable commission in doing so. Marriott also used to allow trade-ins but in doing so they restricted one to what they paid AND they took a commission for themselves just like it was being sold. They don't make as much on ROFR normally as they do on retail projects.

Now imagine that DVC offered 12 month booking for any member with at least 160 direct points. (Even if they restricted it to only 35% of rooms it would still be a great deal --- and DVC already has set an underutilized precedent on that).

Would you buy your BWV resale when the 12 monthers will outbook you in Nov?

Especially when you can buy BWV from DVC, today?

I would understand adding a benefit to buy direct rather than taking away membership for those who don't.

In fact, I've already taken advantage of DVC's current 12 month booking policy, my guaranteed Poly lake view.

But. To do any of that, they'd have to care about the sold out resort market instead of trying to throttle it.
I think you're referencing a VIP program which is the only way they could do what you suggest in terms of booking window with the current product. Ultimately there isn't enough they can add on to do this, about all they have that can move the needle is to take away non contractual options. So they'll do both and likely more of both.
 
1. We are the social media bubble and threads like THIS is what potential members will see. Nothing like having potential buyers take a peek at upset current members to close a sale.


I've done a search for "disney vacation club" on Google and in the first page results I got:
- Disney website links
- Two resale brokers
- Mousesavers
- wdwinfo
- wikipedia

So a casual user knowing nothing would now be aware that a resale market exists. None of the three information pages talk about the newest resale restrictions, only Mousesavers has info about the older 2011 ones.
The new round of restriction is not aimed to people who take time to find threads like this, i.e. people who would spend months before a purchase. They are for people who could raise the question about a resale market but can still be convinced to sign immediately on the dotted line.
As a side effect more 25-50 add-ons arent's a bad thing either, of course.
 
It's not as though Disney haven't lied to people about resale before they put restrictions down.

People who don't research never knew different. If anything, they got upset when they discovered that the guide who said "they could always switch at 7 months!" was overstating the case. And that ain't changed.
 
It's not as though Disney haven't lied to people about resale before they put restrictions down.

People who don't research never knew different. If anything, they got upset when they discovered that the guide who said "they could always switch at 7 months!" was overstating the case. And that ain't changed.
I'm sure lies have occurred but generally even the most aggressive salesperson is careful to at least be vague. As a rule DVC sales staff is far better and more ethical than most. They are often overly optimistic but I think it's usually because they believe the hype more than purposefully mislead.
 












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