Long wait lines.

[morethananyonex]

We are tracking that the standby line moves slower. However theoretically the line "should" be shorter. That is unless more people are riding IASW. That was my example in a PP. If 100 people were ridng IASW and 50 have FP then only 50 would be in the Standby line. Granted the standby line should move slower but it should take number 100 the same amount of time regardless. That is unless more are riding (now 120 are riding). or they can only get 80 through the line in set time period instead of 100 because FP+ somehow slows the line down. And no I do not have the answer.

There doesn't have to be more guests moving through an attraction per hour to increase the stand by lines. The addition of FP+ (or the increase in usage) would do that. In my previous example, even though the stand by line has gotten physically shorter the wait time is longer because of more people "cutting" the stand by line by way of the FP line.

It's what FP has always done, even in the FP- days. The stand by lines move slower than with no FP at all because you have 2 lines feeding the attraction with one being given priority.

 

[PEC]

There doesn't have to be more guests moving through an attraction per hour to increase the stand by lines. The addition of FP+ (or the increase in usage) would do that. In my previous example, even though the stand by line has gotten physically shorter the wait time is longer because of more people "cutting" the stand by line by way of the FP line.

It's what FP has always done, even in the FP- days. The stand by lines move slower than with no FP at all because you have 2 lines feeding the attraction with one being given priority.

I think we are saying the same thing just looking at it different.
Example. Old system has a 10 minute wait with 100 people in line. New system has 50 of those people get fast pass then it would be a 10 minute wait with 50 people in line. Now if 50 extra people are now doing this ride instead of something else in the park and they stand in the wait line then yes the 100th person should be 15 minutes (assuming still 50 people with Fast Pass). Now if the people that gets Fast Pass increases then yes the lines slows down but same still applies. What are they not doing now that they are standing in line or using a FP for the particular ride?

 

[KatieCharlotte]

My niece was at MK on Friday. Keep in mind it was raining that day, but I saw her ride photos and at 1 in the afternoon, she was on splash MTN with her DH and DD, and they were the only people on their boat. The other 3 rows were empty.

Weather is the number one factor for lines at Splash. I have seen empty boats running over and over when it was cool. When the temps are above 80 degrees and it's sunny, I think a 60 min line is pretty typical.

I think the increases in standby lines that FP+ could be causing is:
(1) Lines at unexpected times because people booked a FP+ (which could include Splash when it's cool, or any ride in the morning or during the parade, etc.).
(2) Lines for rides at Epcot/DHS that people had to book because of tiers but otherwise might have skipped entirely.
(3) Lines for rides where FP+ makes loading less efficient resulting in fewer people riding per hour -- we've heard about this repeatedly at PotC. I meant to pay attention at PotC, Small World, etc, but I was always too busy with the kids and/or excited about riding.
(4) Maybe lines for rides that thrill-seekers would have skipped if they could have fastpassed their favorites repeatedly. Space's line would be shorter while PotC is longer, etc.
(5) Because more people are using FP+ than FP, maybe those former non-planners are actually wasting less time trying to ride headliners and therefore riding more rides. But then, there are still attractions with outrageous lines keeping those people occupied, so maybe not?

Plus, obviously, our own personal experiences change if we were used to fastpassing a lot more attractions.

 

[Angel Ariel]

I have seen the same analysis. I am not arguing the analysis. I am not defending FP+ or FP- or just regular standby. I am just trying to figure out how FP+ is affecting overall daily ride capacity as opposed to number of riders/daily guest.

From what I have gathered, it's not changing the daily capacity - it's changing where that capacity comes from. The ratio of FP+ returns to SB is very high, much higher than it was under legacy FP.

I don't know the exact numbers, but using hypothetical numbers to illustrate my point, if the ratio in legacy was to let 10 FP holders through to every 1 SB person, the ratio has increased tremendously to more like 30 FP holders to every 1 SB person. So for the 4th person in the SB line, under legacy they would have boarded as the 34th person. Under FP+ they would board as the 94th person.

The attraction would still be loading its normal capacity, but that 4th person in the SB line would have a longer wait.

(*Again, all numbers are hypothetical...just trying to illustrate how the increase in the ratio of FP+ riders to SB riders affects the SB wait*)

 

[Angel Ariel]

We are tracking that the standby line moves slower. However theoretically the line "should" be shorter. That is unless more people are riding IASW. That was my example in a PP. If 100 people were ridng IASW and 50 have FP then only 50 would be in the Standby line. Granted the standby line should move slower but it should take number 100 the same amount of time regardless. That is unless more are riding (now 120 are riding). or they can only get 80 through the line in set time period instead of 100 because FP+ somehow slows the line down. And no I do not have the answer.

the other factor is that, (prior to 4/28), the amount of FP+s you could get was limited. So at some point in time, people had no choice but to get into the SB lines as FP+ was no longer an option for them.

Since the 4th FP+ (and beyond) has only been an option for a week or so, and by all reports it's not exactly widely distributed knowledge in the parks, there's no way to tell if adding the rotating 4th FP+ will help the situation.

 

[BuckeyeBama]

the other factor is that, (prior to 4/28), the amount of FP+s you could get was limited. So at some point in time, people had no choice but to get into the SB lines as FP+ was no longer an option for them.

Since the 4th FP+ (and beyond) has only been an option for a week or so, and by all reports it's not exactly widely distributed knowledge in the parks, there's no way to tell if adding the rotating 4th FP+ will help the situation.

I think that it is a pretty good bet that it will help people who travel during value seasons to tour the parks the way that they did with FP-. In September one might be able to get 6 or more FP+ in a day to the popular rides. The uncertainty lies with those who travel during more busy times of the year, IMO.

 

[Angel Ariel]

I think that it is a pretty good bet that it will help people who travel during value seasons to tour the parks the way that they did with FP-. In September one might be able to get 6 or more FP+ in a day to the popular rides. The uncertainty lies with those who travel during more busy times of the year, IMO.

I would tend to agree with this...hoping it turns out to be true, since we'll be there in November.

 

[PEC]

From what I have gathered, it's not changing the daily capacity - it's changing where that capacity comes from. The ratio of FP+ returns to SB is very high, much higher than it was under legacy FP.

I don't know the exact numbers, but using hypothetical numbers to illustrate my point, if the ratio in legacy was to let 10 FP holders through to every 1 SB person, the ratio has increased tremendously to more like 30 FP holders to every 1 SB person. So for the 4th person in the SB line, under legacy they would have boarded as the 34th person. Under FP+ they would board as the 94th person.

The attraction would still be loading its normal capacity, but that 4th person in the SB line would have a longer wait.

(*Again, all numbers are hypothetical...just trying to illustrate how the increase in the ratio of FP+ riders to SB riders affects the SB wait*)

I agree with all the hypoteticals. However ride capacity is not changing so there should be significantly fewer in Standby if that many are getting FPs. And the answers I am getting are great. They are taking some "layers off the onion" as the saying goes. I guess I'm looking for a totally choppen onion on this subject.

 

[Seeker615]

We were there in August 2012 before Fastpass Plus and We rode HM and Pirates multiple times with very little wait. In fact pirates was almost a walk on a few times. We also got on the jungle cruise with a short wait as well.

We utilized the old fastpass system for the "mountains" and for Winnie the Pooh.

I think Disney created more lines in some of the "not quite headliners rides" by putting fast pass where it was not really needed. I wonder if things would have been better if they just used Fast Pass Plus for the headliners and for some of the meet and greets.

 

[BuckeyeBama]

I think Disney created more lines in some of the "not quite headliners rides" by putting fast pass where it was not really needed. I wonder if things would have been better if they just used Fast Pass Plus for the headliners and for some of the meet and greets.

I agree, but I think that they did it out of necessity - so everyone could get at least three FP+, even if they made no reservations ahead of time. Also, remember that some families never ride the headliners. Their FP rides would have been rides like this if they had a choice - and now they do.

They did FP+ the way that it needed to be done if they were going to do it, but it has produced an unfortunate consequence for those who would never use one of their FP+ for these rides.

 

[PEC]

Weather is the number one factor for lines at Splash. I have seen empty boats running over and over when it was cool. When the temps are above 80 degrees and it's sunny, I think a 60 min line is pretty typical.

I think the increases in standby lines that FP+ could be causing is:
(1) Lines at unexpected times because people booked a FP+ (which could include Splash when it's cool, or any ride in the morning or during the parade, etc.).
(2) Lines for rides at Epcot/DHS that people had to book because of tiers but otherwise might have skipped entirely.
(3) Lines for rides where FP+ makes loading less efficient resulting in fewer people riding per hour -- we've heard about this repeatedly at PotC. I meant to pay attention at PotC, Small World, etc, but I was always too busy with the kids and/or excited about riding.
(4) Maybe lines for rides that thrill-seekers would have skipped if they could have fastpassed their favorites repeatedly. Space's line would be shorter while PotC is longer, etc.
(5) Because more people are using FP+ than FP, maybe those former non-planners are actually wasting less time trying to ride headliners and therefore riding more rides. But then, there are still attractions with outrageous lines keeping those people occupied, so maybe not?

Plus, obviously, our own personal experiences change if we were used to fastpassing a lot more attractions.

I knew weather was a huge factor period for the rainy day on Friday when my niece (lat in the day) only waited 35 minutes for Anna and Elsa.

It sounds like you are like me. All plausible answers, but is it an individual one or combination of all the above or something totally different.

 

[MuddyTires]

I don't know the exact numbers

Exactly. There's a lot of information people don't have. Even the information people do have - posted wait times from easywdw - does not reflect what people purport it reflects - actual wait times. Anecdotal evidence is of limited value because things can change from day to day and even hour to hour given various conditions - park attendance, weather, ride breakdowns, special events, refurbs, etc. There have also been changes to FP+ - opening up advance reservations to off-site guests, the ability to get more than just the 3, etc.

That's why I chuckle at anyone who on the board who posts with authority about the effects of FP+.

 

[ks-man]

To the OP, I'm not sure if this has already been stated as I haven't read the whole thread, but I'm guessing you were at the MK on Friday of last week (we were too).

The issue with accessing the MDE app and changing FP+ on Friday was b/c they had just opened up Mine Train for FP and it crashed the system. Just bad luck to be in the park on that day. We were going to change one of our FP but couldn't. Later I learned why. It was our last day at the park and our third day at MK so it wasn't a huge deal for us. We actually left around 1:30pm as we had enough of the rain. We had a FP for the 3pm parade but most of the staff told us that it gets cancelled if it is raining and they do an alternate parade.

Rides like IASW, Under the Sea, and others where the wait and ride is indoors seemed to have a longer wait time probably b/c people simply want to get out of the rain. I think the crowds were average for the time of year. We got a ton done before 11am at the parks. The 9am-10am time really is incredible if you want to do a lot of rides. The first day we did Dumbo twice and then sat on the Barnstormer for 4 straight rides (gotta love having a 2.5 year old that simply says "again"). Since there was no line they just let us sit in the car each time without having to exit. The next day we went to Thunder Mountain at around 9:15 and got through it in 5 minutes.

Between 12pm-4pm you aren't going to find many rides with less than a 10-15 minute wait and even 20 minutes isn't that bad. We did the MK at night on Wednesday after our BOG dining reservation and the kids did awesome. There was a light rain and we were able to do a ton of rides between 7:00-8:30pm. Guessing it is mostly older kids there at that time so Fantasyland is pretty empty for the rides.

 

[Angel Ariel]

I agree with all the hypoteticals. However ride capacity is not changing so there should be significantly fewer in Standby if that many are getting FPs. And the answers I am getting are great. They are taking some "layers off the onion" as the saying goes. I guess I'm looking for a totally choppen onion on this subject.

But there aren't significantly fewer in SB. As I said, until a week ago, FP+ were limited to 3/person. Once those 3 were used, people had no choice but to get into SB for the rest of their rides.

Given that the 4th rotating FP+ option isn't being widely announced in the park, and that it's only been available for a week, I think it's pretty safe to say that the majority of FP+ users are not yet using the 4th rotating FP+ option, which means that most people who are in the park are in SB lines aside from their 3 prebooked FPs.

I don't know about you, but I don't go to MK to only ride 3 rides in a day. So, if you don't know about the 4th rotating FP+ (or were there prior to that option existing), you're going to end up riding SB..

 

[Angel Ariel]

Exactly. There's a lot of information people don't have. Even the information people do have - posted wait times from easywdw - does not reflect what people purport it reflects - actual wait times. Anecdotal evidence is of limited value because things can change from day to day and even hour to hour given various conditions - park attendance, weather, ride breakdowns, special events, refurbs, etc. There have also been changes to FP+ - opening up advance reservations to off-site guests, the ability to get more than just the 3, etc.

That's why I chuckle at anyone who on the board who posts with authority about the effects of FP+.

I believe the ratio of FP+ riders to SB riders increasing is something that has actually been posted by a CM who has a track record of accurate information.

While my numbers were hypothetical (as obviously I don't know the exact ratio), that the ratio has increased has generally been accepted by both sides of the discussion.

I don't really see how anyone can say that SB doesn't move slower when they are taking significantly more FP+ riders/hour than they are SB. (This is for rides that did not previously have FP+...as already posted, the ones that did already did max their FP usage, which is why their wait times haven't changed all that much).

And BTW, I'm not "posting with authority" - I'm posting my opinion on how FP+ could slow down SB, just as everyone else is posting theirs.

 

[ks-man]

But there aren't significantly fewer in SB. As I said, until a week ago, FP+ were limited to 3/person. Once those 3 were used, people had no choice but to get into SB for the rest of their rides.

Given that the 4th rotating FP+ option isn't being widely announced in the park, and that it's only been available for a week, I think it's pretty safe to say that the majority of FP+ users are not yet using the 4th rotating FP+ option, which means that most people who are in the park are in SB lines aside from their 3 prebooked FPs.

I don't know about you, but I don't go to MK to only ride 3 rides in a day. So, if you don't know about the 4th rotating FP+ (or were there prior to that option existing), you're going to end up riding SB..

We checked into the Contemporary last Monday and we were told while checking in about the new 4th+ FP that started that day (I had already known about it). We were at the MK last week and rode far more than 3 rides without ever waiting more than about 20 mins. Take advantage of the 9-11am shift. You can do a ton of rides without a ton of waiting during those two hours. Make your FP+ for between 11am-3pm so you have a few rides with less than 5 mins waiting. Figure that you will eat lunch and do some walking. At 3pm you can either watch the parade or hit some more rides with lower wait times as people are watching the parade. Then the wait times start to decline again later in the day. Granted the Mountains cater to an older crowd so those lines will probably stay reasonably long until 8-9pm but between the early morning times and FP+ you can ride those a couple of times and still hit many other rides. Far more than the 3 that you just get through FP+.

 

[Angel Ariel]

We checked into the Contemporary last Monday and we were told while checking in about the new 4th+ FP that started that day (I had already known about it). We were at the MK last week and rode far more than 3 rides without ever waiting more than about 20 mins. Take advantage of the 9-11am shift. You can do a ton of rides without a ton of waiting during those two hours. Make your FP+ for between 11am-3pm so you have a few rides with less than 5 mins waiting. Figure that you will eat lunch and do some walking. At 3pm you can either watch the parade or hit some more rides with lower wait times as people are watching the parade. Then the wait times start to decline again later in the day. Granted the Mountains cater to an older crowd so those lines will probably stay reasonably long until 8-9pm but between the early morning times and FP+ you can ride those a couple of times and still hit many other rides. Far more than the 3 that you just get through FP+.

I understand you can ride more than just the 3 with FP+. The person I was responding to was saying that there should be significantly less people in SB lines if FP+ usage is greater. My point was that prior to a week ago, 3 FP+s were all that anyone could get. Meaning that for anything else they wanted to ride that day, they - by definition - had to ride standby.

So I think it's a flawed assumption to assume that increase in FP+ usage automatically means that there are less people in SB. It's dispersing the crowds differently, but the crowds are still there.

Since the 4th rotating FP+ has only been in play for a week, I don't think anyone has enough information to include it in the discussions of how FP+ could make SB lines longer (which is a discussion that's been happening since January). Perhaps now that we can get more than the 3 FP+s, SB lines will become shorter...that remains to be seen. It'll take time to see the effect the 4th FP+ has.

 

[Angel Ariel]

Here is a post from Josh at EasyWDW that discusses the effect that the priority boarding FP+ riders receive was observed to be having on rides that did not previously have FP.

Link

Josh's ending summary quote:

Overall, FP+ is causing wait times to increase at most secondary attractions, while having a less substantial impact at the most popular attractions with the longest wait times.

(And I'm aware that Josh points out that waits for headliners have either remained constant or gone down..especially at MK. This discussion was about rides that did not previously have FP, not headliners).

 

[PEC]

Here is a post from Josh at EasyWDW that discusses the effect that the priority boarding FP+ riders receive was observed to be having on rides that did not previously have FP.

Link

Josh's ending summary quote:


(And I'm aware that Josh points out that waits for headliners have either remained constant or gone down..especially at MK. This discussion was about rides that did not previously have FP, not headliners).

I think Josh's analysis on this is what many have used, and is probably as accurate as any I have seen. The extra FP+ is impossible to draw any conclusions so far. As earlier in the thread was mentioned it rained (pretty hard some days) in the 1st week that it was available so the data would be inaccurate even trying to judge a slow week We will have to go a few months over slow weeks, peak season and Holidays to get a better idea how this works.

 

[PEC]

But there aren't significantly fewer in SB. As I said, until a week ago, FP+ were limited to 3/person. Once those 3 were used, people had no choice but to get into SB for the rest of their rides.

Given that the 4th rotating FP+ option isn't being widely announced in the park, and that it's only been available for a week, I think it's pretty safe to say that the majority of FP+ users are not yet using the 4th rotating FP+ option, which means that most people who are in the park are in SB lines aside from their 3 prebooked FPs.

I don't know about you, but I don't go to MK to only ride 3 rides in a day. So, if you don't know about the 4th rotating FP+ (or were there prior to that option existing), you're going to end up riding SB..

Agree. I think I generally end up doing 12-20 things at MK. That said I normally didn't get more than about 3-4 FPs anyway, but that was mainly because of how planned my visit. Plus who I was visiting with. With small children 4 -6 year olds (Sllloooowww the pace way down). With tweeners or teens (wide open).