Long wait lines.

[PEC]

I have been thinking about the longer wait times I hear reported and thought of the simple math.
If we can assume that the loading and daily number of riders per ride has not changed then tthe following are the possibilities of the longer wait times.

a. Crowds have gotting significantly larger at WDW. I haven't seen anything more than a few percents of growth so I don't see this as an issue. I would say at MK, New Fantasyland would have absorbed this growth easily. Think about it the person standing in the Anna and Elsa M&G for 4 hours is not riding anything else. Same with individuals waiting for ETWB.

b. FP+ has more individuals riding rides instead of doing other things. Doubt it. Maybe on the fringes. People who want to tour slow and ride non-thrill rides/shows were doing that prior and I don't see that changing. For the thrill riders I will make my believe point later.

c. FP+ is slowing the loading of the ride causing daily capacity to drop. Have not heard of that problem. I am sure somebody on this site would have complained by now if this was the case.

d. With the somewhat limited capability of multiple FPs for the same ride individuals are riding more different rides than the same ride over and over. This is a possiblity but if it is the case then the main attraction rides should have shorter wait times. I think Josh did a analysis and came somewhat with that conclusion.


If somebody can think of some other variable in this equation then I would like to read about it.

 

[lugnut33]

I don't get what some people's deal is, but it's a proven fact that some rides that have had FP installed now have longer waits. They are not conducive to FP and actually slow down the overall operation of the ride. It's the reason Disney got rid of FP off those rides years and years ago.

 

[wuzzy6]

We were at MK on Friday - it was steadily raining, and it was more crowded than I'd anticipated. In spite of that, the crowd started thinning significantly later in the afternoon. We were able to ride Space Mountain via SB - 25 minute wait. Splash Mountain SB was a 35 minute posted wait, but it was actually less than that at about 20 minutes. POTC SB was posted at 10 minutes, and it was actually less than that - pretty much however long it took to walk through the queue plus maybe 3-4 minutes actually standing in line. HM SB was posted at 35 minutes, and it was slightly less than that - line moved very quickly. TTAPM SB was a steady walk-on - not a true walk-on, as there was a line, but it never stopped moving until you got to the boarding platform and they asked how many in your party. We were going to ride BTMRR, but it had closed for some reason. We ended up riding everything we wanted to PLUS some - all via standby - and left the park before our first scheduled FP+ time.

Anyway, I will always feel that these types of discussions are so subjective, because they're based on an individual's perception. When I visit the MK, for example, on a Friday in May, I expect long stand-by lines... and by "long" I mean a wait time in excess of 30 minutes. When I find anything less than that, given that it's a busy time of year, I'm very happy. I don't expect everyone to feel that way. YMMV.

 

[PEC]

I don't get what some people's deal is, but it's a proven fact that some rides that have had FP installed now have longer waits. They are not conducive to FP and actually slow down the overall operation of the ride. It's the reason Disney got rid of FP off those rides years and years ago.

SO from my previous post are you saying the answer is c.? Could be. I do know some of these rides use to have FP- and later dropped it. I always just figured they never had wait times meet the demand for a FP. I wonder what for IASW is slowing down the loading of a boat?

 

[morethananyonex]

I have been thinking about the longer wait times I hear reported and thought of the simple math. If we can assume that the loading and daily number of riders per ride has not changed then tthe following are the possibilities of the longer wait times. a. Crowds have gotting significantly larger at WDW. I haven't seen anything more than a few percents of growth so I don't see this as an issue. I would say at MK, New Fantasyland would have absorbed this growth easily. Think about it the person standing in the Anna and Elsa M&G for 4 hours is not riding anything else. Same with individuals waiting for ETWB. b. FP+ has more individuals riding rides instead of doing other things. Doubt it. Maybe on the fringes. People who want to tour slow and ride non-thrill rides/shows were doing that prior and I don't see that changing. For the thrill riders I will make my believe point later. c. FP+ is slowing the loading of the ride causing daily capacity to drop. Have not heard of that problem. I am sure somebody on this site would have complained by now if this was the case. d. With the somewhat limited capability of multiple FPs for the same ride individuals are riding more different rides than the same ride over and over. This is a possiblity but if it is the case then the main attraction rides should have shorter wait times. I think Josh did a analysis and came somewhat with that conclusion. If somebody can think of some other variable in this equation then I would like to read about it.

I think the main reason is the increased numbers of people using FP+ and the increased number of FP+ options.

Even if the ride takes the same amount of people as before, stand by lines are slowed down when more people are taken from the FP+ line. You'll notice that the rides that have seen the biggest impact on their wait times are the ones that previously had no or low FP use. Rides like TSMM haven't been impacted because the FP there have always been fully utilized.

So more people are FPing things, and more rides are available to be FPed, which is great unless you have no choice but to wait in the stand by lines.

 

[nugov2]

OP you should see the standby waits for rides in July. That 20 minutes would seem short.

We went in mid June and never waited long. My son rode IASW almost exclusively(my mother is a saint and kept riding it with him) and never waited more than a few minutes both of our MK days. The parks were crowded...especially midday, but we pretty much got on everything very quickly and were able to use paper FP for anything with a significant wait. I haven't used the new system yet, but am hopeful with the new additional FP it may get better. Still wouldn't be interested in visiting until this system is working better, but we aren't a family who likes to wait very long for anything and do not view WDW as a place to soak up the atmosphere. We equate a good trip with doing all the rides we want multiple times though.

 

[lugnut33]

SO from my previous post are you saying the answer is c.? Could be. I do know some of these rides use to have FP- and later dropped it. I always just figured they never had wait times meet the demand for a FP. I wonder what for IASW is slowing down the loading of a boat?

Well, there are a lot of factors, it's not just one. However, Disney had already tried FP on Haunted Mansion and Pirates and quickly eliminated it when they found it hindered the maximum efficiency of the ride. What it tells me is super-high capacity rides like IASW, Pirates, and HM simply don't need FP.

 

[FLchick415]

Not for every ride - certainly not for rides like IASW and PotC. Why? Because the FP+ line is rarely backed up at those rides. I was there the week after Easter and the FP+ line for IASM rarely had more than a handful of people in it - never enough to even fill a single boat. And the FP+ line for PotC was almost as empty. So, while the ratio could hit 8:2 if FP+ riders get backed up or if it became a more popular ride, that just isn't the case right now at many rides.

Yes, it is having an impact, but not that great an impact.

Something else that I have noticed our last few trips - WDW is intentionally inflating SB wait times. Not sure why, but they clearly are - sometimes by more than 100%. I noticed on every ride my last 2 trips that my actual wait times were substantially lower than the posted times and started keeping track. An example - week before last I got on line for Buzz with a posted wait time of 30 minutes. I saw very few people trickling into the FP+ queue and decided to see how long it took. I was on the ride in less than 10 minutes. I rode it twice, including SB wait times and time to ride, in 35 minutes.

I noticed this too when I was there last weekend. At Epcot, the single rider line for TT said 30 minutes, but I was on and off within 15. IDK if I just got lucky or what, but yeah.

 

[PEC]

I think the main reason is the increased numbers of people using FP+ and the increased number of FP+ options.

Even if the ride takes the same amount of people as before, stand by lines are slowed down when more people are taken from the FP+ line. You'll notice that the rides that have seen the biggest impact on their wait times are the ones that previously had no or low FP use. Rides like TSMM haven't been impacted because the FP there have always been fully utilized.

So more people are FPing things, and more rides are available to be FPed, which is great unless you have no choice but to wait in the stand by lines.

Valid point. Just if they were previously going to ride the ride anyway and now they choose to use a FP for it then there are less people in standby there shortening the Standby line. In theory the standby line should stay about the same just a shorter line would take longer? Example if 100 people were going to ride it but 50 now have a FP, there are now only 50 people in the standby line but the line would take the same amount of time as the old 100 person line.

 

[morethananyonex]

Valid point. Just if they were previously going to ride the ride anyway and now they choose to use a FP for it then there are less people in standby there shortening the Standby line. In theory the standby line should stay about the same just a shorter line would take longer? Example if 100 people were going to ride it but 50 now have a FP, there are now only 50 people in the standby line but the line would take the same amount of time as the old 100 person line.

Let's say a ride has 60 person capacity an hour and is stand by only. You are the 30th person in line, and each person takes a minute to ride. Your standby wait time is 30 minutes.

Give this same ride FP+, and say 50% of the capacity now goes towards FP+, meaning 30 people can get a FP. For whatever reason you don't. You get in line at the same time, but now the 30 people who have FP+ can potentially board before you depending on when they arrive because FP+ now has boarding priority. That is a possible extra 30 minutes tacked onto your wait time plus anyone in front of you in stand by, even though the stand by line is only 1/2 the size that it used to be.

 

[Suellen]

Meh.. those wait times don't seem out of line to me. We visit at all different times of the year and 60 minutes for Splash is (and has been) quite common. IASW seems to vary on time of day. Sometimes 30 minutes... sometimes walk on.

 

[mom2rtk]

Valid point. Just if they were previously going to ride the ride anyway and now they choose to use a FP for it then there are less people in standby there shortening the Standby line. In theory the standby line should stay about the same just a shorter line would take longer? Example if 100 people were going to ride it but 50 now have a FP, there are now only 50 people in the standby line but the line would take the same amount of time as the old 100 person line.

But that could be offset by the number of people who would have done the ride a second time and now bypass it because the line is longer or moving slower.

 

[dixiegirl]

We saw 20+ minute IASW waits when we were there in OCT. FP+ had started, but paper FP were still there. I think people just like this ride, though I have no idea why.

Agree - have been going in Oct for 17 years now and have definitely seen 20+ min waits for IASW often. Have also seen hour+ waits for Splash Mountain as well.

Not saying that FP+ might be adding a bit but don't believe it's the sole cause.

Shame about the castmember interaction that the OP had - seems there is a lacking of training these days. I honestly find most people in general a lot ruder and indignant these days. Common courtesy and politeness seem to be a lost art.

 

[PEC]

Well, there are a lot of factors, it's not just one. However, Disney had already tried FP on Haunted Mansion and Pirates and quickly eliminated it when they found it hindered the maximum efficiency of the ride. What it tells me is super-high capacity rides like IASW, Pirates, and HM simply don't need FP.

I'm not disagreeing with what you are saying. I'm just rying to figure out how a FP line slows down the loading of these rides. You are correct that use to these rides had Fp- and later dropped them and the reason could be that somehow it slowed down their daily ride capacity. I just wish a person that really understands the load flow for such rides could explain it and how a FP line slows down the loading process..

Oh there could be several factors (likely are). I'm just rying to wrapped my head around the real and/or perceived longer standby lines caused by FP+.

 

[morethananyonex]

I'm not disagreeing with what you are saying. I'm just rying to figure out how a FP line slows down the loading of these rides. You are correct that use to these rides had Fp- and later dropped them and the reason could be that somehow it slowed down their daily ride capacity. I just wish a person that really understands the load flow for such rides could explain it and how a FP line slows down the loading process..

Oh there could be several factors (likely are). I'm just rying to wrapped my head around the real and/or perceived longer standby lines caused by FP+.

The analysis done by Josh at easyWDW a few months ago showed increases at the attractions that did not have FP in the past, or had low FP usage (like Dinosaur). Those attractions saw the biggest increases, while headliner attractions that had high FP usage did not see increases, and in some cases saw decreases.

IMO that points the finger directly at FP+. An increase in crowd levels would increase waits across the board. An increase in FP+ users, and therefore an increase in FP+ usage at second tier attractions (because there isn't enough to go around at headliners), would do exactly what we have seen. I don't think the lines have been slowed down because of inefficient loading, again, the biggest cause seems to be FP+ because of the attractions that have seen the biggest impact.

 

[PEC]

But that could be offset by the number of people who would have done the ride a second time and now bypass it because the line is longer or moving slower.

True, but then what would the person do? IF somebody does not ride a particular ride another time they either, go home early, shop, walk around, eat more, ride another ride, etc etc. Back to the variable that daily ride capacity does not change (however per lugnuts some ride daily capacities are affected by FP). That could easily be true and I am just trying to wrap my head around all of this.

 

[PEC]

The analysis done by Josh at easyWDW a few months ago showed increases at the attractions that did not have FP in the past, or had low FP usage (like Dinosaur). Those attractions saw the biggest increases, while headliner attractions that had high FP usage did not see increases, and in some cases saw decreases.

IMO that points the finger directly at FP+. An increase in crowd levels would increase waits across the board. An increase in FP+ users, and therefore an increase in FP+ usage at second tier attractions (because there isn't enough to go around at headliners), would do exactly what we have seen. I don't think the lines have been slowed down because of inefficient loading, again, the biggest cause seems to be FP+ because of the attractions that have seen the biggest impact.

I have seen the same analysis. I am not arguing the analysis. I am not defending FP+ or FP- or just regular standby. I am just trying to figure out how FP+ is affecting overall daily ride capacity as opposed to number of riders/daily guest.
ie Maybe Fp+ has more people riding rides at the park instead of watching the parade. If so that is a factor. Or less shoppers. etc. Or can somebody explain how a FP+ line slows down loading of the boat for IASW.
The Josh analysis is proving longer standbys. Now I'm looking for the whys. Not arguing or defending anything.

 

[PEC]

My niece was at MK on Friday. Keep in mind it was raining that day, but I saw her ride photos and at 1 in the afternoon, she was on splash MTN with her DH and DD, and they were the only people on their boat. The other 3 rows were empty.

 

[morethananyonex]

I have seen the same analysis. I am not arguing the analysis. I am not defending FP+ or FP- or just regular standby. I am just trying to figure out how FP+ is affecting overall daily ride capacity as opposed to number of riders/daily guest.
ie Maybe Fp+ has more people riding rides at the park instead of watching the parade. If so that is a factor. Or less shoppers. etc. Or can somebody explain how a FP+ line slows down loading of the boat for IASW.
The Josh analysis is proving longer standbys. Now I'm looking for the whys. Not arguing or defending anything.

I've explained what I believe is the why multiple times. Maybe you missed the post, might be on the previous page already. FP+ has priority boarding, which means even if there are less people in the stand by line more people entering through the FP+ line slows the stand by line. If you rode stand by in the past with 30 people in front of you on an attraction that can handle 60 an hour (and has no FP), you are the 31st person to board. If you ride stand by and that attraction now has FP+ and we conservatively say 50% of capacity is allocated to FP+ (and it's not, it's higher), you may have 15 people in front of you instead, but if 30 FP guests board in front of you you're now the 46th rider instead of 31st.

The only attraction where FP+ theoretically could be effecting the load times (not wait times) is Pirates, as the set up has made one loading platform FP+ and one stand by. When we were there we experienced stand by guests being directed to that platform if there was not enough FP+ guests, so I imagine that has a very low impact if one at all. Attractions like HM have the merge at a point where load times should not be impacted, same with Dinosaur.

Again, the longer stand by times points directly at FP+ cutting off the lines more frequently.

 

[PEC]

I've explained what I believe is the why multiple times. Maybe you missed the post, might be on the previous page already. FP+ has priority boarding, which means even if there are less people in the stand by line more people entering through the FP+ line slows the stand by line. If you rode stand by in the past with 30 people in front of you on an attraction that can handle 60 an hour (and has no FP), you are the 31st person to board. If you ride stand by and that attraction now has FP+ and we conservatively say 50% of capacity is allocated to FP+ (and it's not, it's higher), you may have 15 people in front of you instead, but if 30 FP guests board in front of you you're now the 46th rider instead of 31st.

The only attraction where FP+ theoretically could be effecting the load times (not wait times) is Pirates, as the set up has made one loading platform FP+ and one stand by. When we were there we experienced stand by guests being directed to that platform if there was not enough FP+ guests, so I imagine that has a very low impact if one at all. Attractions like HM have the merge at a point where load times should not be impacted, same with Dinosaur.

Again, the longer stand by times points directly at FP+ cutting off the lines more frequently.

We are tracking that the standby line moves slower. However theoretically the line "should" be shorter. That is unless more people are riding IASW. That was my example in a PP. If 100 people were ridng IASW and 50 have FP then only 50 would be in the Standby line. Granted the standby line should move slower but it should take number 100 the same amount of time regardless. That is unless more are riding (now 120 are riding). or they can only get 80 through the line in set time period instead of 100 because FP+ somehow slows the line down. And no I do not have the answer.