Little League title taken away

[Geoff_M]

When I was a kid I thought that maybe these Asian winners were stacking their teams, but I remember talking to an adult from Taiwan who said that they always followed the same rules as American LLB teams in terms of districts. They actually list 14 different cities from Taiwan that have won the LLWS, and I suspect the teams representing Taipei or Tainan were probably from different districts.

I did some digging around and it appears that 20 years ago LL addressed the "Taiwan problem" by shrinking their district sizes. In response, Taiwan "quit" LL from 1997 to 2002.

 

[bcla]

I did some digging around and it appears that 20 years ago LL addressed the "Taiwan problem" by shrinking their district sizes. In response, Taiwan "quit" LL from 1997 to 2002.

Still - they were never "national teams" per se. They never really had any inherent advantage that teams outside of Asia couldn't use. However, they had some serious organizational advantages (read money and effort) and with enough kids to draw a team from they were very much dominant.

Even so, one of the big deals was having that legitimate 12 year old who just happened to be bigger and stronger than the other kids.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/recycled/2007/08/little_league_bullies.html

The age cutoff (this year's tournament is limited to those born after Aug. 1, 1991) ensures that teams are divided into two castes, the pubescent and the prepubescent. Anyone who's ever been to a junior-high dance knows that the age of 12 can produce comic disparities in development. That's true on the field as well. Playing alongside the 206-pound Flynn on last year's Worcester squad was third baseman Andy Fallon, who carried all of 74 pounds—about the weight of Flynn's bat.

 

[bcla]

Here's an article from someone (former sportswriter in the San Francisco Bay Area) who actually participated in Taiwanese LL. He claims that competition was so fierce that player eligibility was checked like crazy. My understanding is that one league would have no qualms about ratting out another league for using illegal players or illegal recruiting. Their deal was that it was more than just a game.

http://thediplomat.com/2013/08/what-happened-to-taiwans-little-league-champs/

Forget the often-cited and baseless accusation that Taiwan once used overage players to achieve its feat. That was never the case. Full disclosure: This author played Little League ball in Taiwan in the golden age of the1970s. The competition was so fierce that player eligibility was checked scrupulously in tournaments throughout the island. Little League Inc., did its own investigation in the 70s and found not one shred of irregularities.

Taiwan’s one-time dominance can be best explained this way: Winning meant much more than just fun and games.

Taiwan’s Little League success not coincidentally came at a time when the island was faced with a mounting diplomatic crisis. As Taiwan won its first Little League title in 1969, it was in the process of being kicked out of the UN, which preceded Nixon’s landmark 1972 visit to China to normalize relations with the Communist mainland. When the U.S. officially severed ties with Taipei to recognize Beijing in 1979, Taiwan’s international isolation was complete.

In this crucible Taiwan’s youth baseball dominance stood as a beacon in the island’s uncertain future. Not just at the Little League level, Taiwanese teams also hoarded Senior and Big League titles – with 17 championships apiece, the last also came in 1996. These teams’ tournament games in America were broadcast live on state television in the island’s wee hours. In the darkness you could hear wild cheering throughout the neighborhood with the blasting of firecrackers greeting each victory.

 

[Geoff_M]

Still - they were never "national teams" per se.

I understand that I didn't have the "scope" of the problem right, but it was just to confirm that there was an administrative "fix" that was applied to try and re-level (in LL's eyes) the playing field.

 

[MickeySP]

It appears they were turned in by another Chicago team. They were apparently poaching kids from all the districts. This is strictly forbidden.

 

[declansdad]

I feel bad for those kids but this is not a racial issue and Jesse Jackson is just being a tool, but that doesn't seem to be a rare thing.

Yes the kids did nothing wrong but we certainly don't know if they would have achieved what they did without using players from outside the boundary.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

I feel bad for those kids but this is not a racial issue and Jesse Jackson is just being a tool, but that doesn't seem to be a rare thing.

Yes the kids did nothing wrong but we certainly don't know if they would have achieved what they did without using players from outside the boundary.

What is for certain, if this team (name) won fair and square, the out of boundary kids would most certainly would not have since they would have been on other teams.

The title should be stripped. It would have been in any other sport with such rules.

Heck--we homeschool and are looking to participate in team sports in the fall. My child cannot be enrolled in any umbrella school as it violates state rules of participation. I have already confirmed once but will be confirming repeatedly that my daughter taking an on line class would not be breaking the rules. The answer is no, she would not--but we will not settle on that.

The risk of not making absolutely sure only to find we are breaking the rules is that wins would be stripped and championships won would be vacated.

Sports is serious deal and having players on your team that should not be is an automatic loss of title.

I am a bit horrified that prominent figures are ignoring that in an effort to not punish the kids. Maybe they didn't realize. But it doesn't matter. They were used and only the adults that used them should be blamed for the kids losing the title. Not the Little Leavue World Series for stripping the title.

That said--where are the checks and balances before? Or was the cheating so well done that everything seemed on the up and up?

 

[sunshine1178]

It appears they were turned in by another Chicago team. They were apparently poaching kids from all the districts. This is strictly forbidden.

Yes, they were turned in by a coach from Evergreen Park, a suburb on Chicago's northern border. I strongly suspect that some unflattering truths of their own will come out about Evergreen Park soon.

 

[declansdad]

Yes, they were turned in by a coach from Evergreen Park, a suburb on Chicago's northern border. I strongly suspect that some unflattering truths of their own will come out about Evergreen Park soon.

Why would you make that accusation?

 

[sunshine1178]

Why would you make that accusation?

It's not an accusation. It's an opinion. Youth baseball is a surprisingly small community, and one with a long memory. If EP has ever violated any rules, i believe that it will come out.

Having attended tournaments with the whistle-blower coach present, I have seen him act impulsively and disrespectfully. Whether actual rules were violated or not, I don't know. That will be for the leagues he played in to report, or for his athletic board to self-report.

 

[luvsJack]

I find it very sad for these kids. There is no better answer than removing the title but they still worked hard and played hard. They still earned the wins.

 

[daughtersrus]

Which is exactly my point. I was pointing out that the OP's claim that some teams represented an entire country, was false (despite the team playing at "Team Canada").

My fault for believe the radio announcer without checking it out for myself. I apologize!

 

[nugov2]

What is for certain, if this team (name) won fair and square, the out of boundary kids would most certainly would not have since they would have been on other teams.

The title should be stripped. It would have been in any other sport with such rules.

Heck--we homeschool and are looking to participate in team sports in the fall. My child cannot be enrolled in any umbrella school as it violates state rules of participation. I have already confirmed once but will be confirming repeatedly that my daughter taking an on line class would not be breaking the rules. The answer is no, she would not--but we will not settle on that.

The risk of not making absolutely sure only to find we are breaking the rules is that wins would be stripped and championships won would be vacated.

Sports is serious deal and having players on your team that should not be is an automatic loss of title.

I am a bit horrified that prominent figures are ignoring that in an effort to not punish the kids. Maybe they didn't realize. But it doesn't matter. They were used and only the adults that used them should be blamed for the kids losing the title. Not the Little Leavue World Series for stripping the title.

That said--where are the checks and balances before? Or was the cheating so well done that everything seemed on the up and up?

From what I understand, they did contact someone for the Illinois Little League but the concerns were dismissed. I believe that while the EP guy was the first there were many others who continued to file complaints and that is what caused the higher ups to investigate. This whole thing is a joke in how it is being handled in Chicago. The mayor calling and asking them to reinstate, I mean seriously why can nobody while acknowledgeing it is tough for the kids that mistakes were made and the right thing to do is to take the title away. If a MLB team was being dosed with steriods by their trainer without their knowledged they would still be held responsible. Like others have said, these kids while I don't blame them, knew they were playing somewhere that wasn't their home city. I heard a kid came from Lansing(I think that is the town, but from the same town as Val Warner who is a tv personality), she even said one of the kids on the team was from her son's school.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

I find it very sad for these kids. There is no better answer than removing the title but they still worked hard and played hard. They still earned the wins.

Not if they used players they weren't supposed to. They had helpers to "earn" the wins. They have no way to prove they would have won without those players.


On the news this morning--
Coach who reported the. Claims he is getting death threats.

Press conference with families and Jessie jackson---a mother pulled the mother card and the "I had no idea card". Don't know about her league , but our league had ALL the rules posted. I guess she can claim ignorance, but unless the entire league where this team was based was in on it and has fake rules available--she chose to be ignorant.

I don't necessarily agree with the "the kids knew" pile on. My 12yo is signed up for things and goes where I tell her she is going--she isn't the one researching the rules and policies of the activity. I tell her things pertinent to her regarding attire, conduct, how the activity is run. It is up to me as the parent to ensure she meets eligibility requirements. (Now--she is a dancer, not a ball player--but the concept remains.)

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

From what I understand, they did contact someone for the Illinois Little League but the concerns were dismissed. I believe that while the EP guy was the first there were many others who continued to file complaints and that is what caused the higher ups to investigate. This whole thing is a joke in how it is being handled in Chicago. The mayor calling and asking them to reinstate, I mean seriously why can nobody while acknowledgeing it is tough for the kids that mistakes were made and the right thing to do is to take the title away. If a MLB team was being dosed with steriods by their trainer without their knowledged they would still be held responsible. Like others have said, these kids while I don't blame them, knew they were playing somewhere that wasn't their home city. I heard a kid came from Lansing(I think that is the town, but from the same town as Val Warner who is a tv personality), she even said one of the kids on the team was from her son's school.

I think it is the current "I am above the rules, let's have no accountability because--sports!"

 

[IndyRnRfan]

Gotta love the city of Chicago where the mayor believes they did nothing wrong and everyone is up in arms because this is now a racism issue. Honestly, this isn't a team IMO who had good sportsmanship to begin with. They beat a team in the playoffs something like 45-2. That is unnecessary. Even the coaches are being supported as doing nothing wrong. I feel bad for the teams they beat and the team who took second all because a team cheated. I feel bad for the kids on this team who were pawns of the coaches and parents who thought cheating was ok. The whole situation is just a disgrace that adults care about winning a kids little league tournament that much.

That is because that is the mentality of those types of people that feel the rules don't apply to them. They all knew what they were doing was wrong. The kids, parents, LL, etc.... Every kid knows where every kid lives or has a rough idea, the parents know, and the LL knows. I don't feel bad at all for anybody except the teams that got cheated by playing against this team. I've been involved with youth baseball going on 30+ years and there is no excuse for this. Coming from Chicago is not a surprise. Many things are corrupt in that city and have been for quite some time, not to say it doesn't or hasn't in other cities but this isn't a shock.

I haven't heard about the racism thing but if that is the case that is no surprise either. That card is getting old and played out. Stop breaking the rules and do what you are suppose to and you will have no problems. Millions of people do it everyday, why can't a select few?

 

[FlightlessDuck]

I bet they deflated their baseballs, too.

/I know... I know

 

[daughtersrus]

If this is true, it sounds like its been going on for a long time.

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2015/02...ark-mulder-accuses-jrw-of-cheating-for-years/

It's not just a Little League problem. We had a similar situation with IHSA girls basketball last.

http://www.ihsa.org/NewsMedia/Annou...ad-Coach-Anthony-Smith-Suspended-By-IHSA.aspx

 

[luvsJack]

Not if they used players they weren't supposed to. They had helpers to "earn" the wins. They have no way to prove they would have won without those players.


On the news this morning--
Coach who reported the. Claims he is getting death threats.

Press conference with families and Jessie jackson---a mother pulled the mother card and the "I had no idea card". Don't know about her league , but our league had ALL the rules posted. I guess she can claim ignorance, but unless the entire league where this team was based was in on it and has fake rules available--she chose to be ignorant.

I don't necessarily agree with the "the kids knew" pile on. My 12yo is signed up for things and goes where I tell her she is going--she isn't the one researching the rules and policies of the activity. I tell her things pertinent to her regarding attire, conduct, how the activity is run. It is up to me as the parent to ensure she meets eligibility requirements. (Now--she is a dancer, not a ball player--but the concept remains.)

They earned the hits and the runs, they made the outs. Thats the part they earned. The adults chose to cheat. The kids played ball.

There is no other choice to make than stripping their title. Its the right thing to do but it doesn't take away the fact that the kids earned the runs on the score board. I just feel bad for these kids.

When ds was playing in a dixie youth state tournament another team cheated. Their team played a geeat game as did our team. The coach made a decision not to play a kid because the kid couldn't hit agaisnt our pitcher. . They won and it was overturned. They lost because a coach chose to cheat not because the team couldn't or didn't play.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

They earned the hits and the runs, they made the outs. Thats the part they earned. The adults chose to cheat. The kids played ball.

There is no other choice to make than stripping their title. Its the right thing to do but it doesn't take away the fact that the kids earned the runs on the score board. I just feel bad for these kids.

When ds was playing in a dixie youth state tournament another team cheated. Their team played a geeat game as did our team. The coach made a decision not to play a kid because the kid couldn't hit agaisnt our pitcher. . They won and it was overturned. They lost because a coach chose to cheat not because the team couldn't or didn't play.

If an athlete uses a performance enhancing drug...

Or if a racecar is retrofitted with something contrary to race rules that allows it to perform better....

Then they still achieved the result, right?

Only they didn't because they used methods that allowed for Better performance when rules expressly prohibited that.

This team was stacked. It doesn't matter if little Johnny really got that Homerun if Johny was never supposed to be at bat in the first place. He didn't earn anything.