Little League title taken away

[robinb]

I don't think anyone is surprised.

I'm not sure what that means. Why were you not surprised? I certainly was.

 

[fbb]

When ds was playing in a dixie youth state tournament another team cheated. Their team played a geeat game as did our team. The coach made a decision not to play a kid because the kid couldn't hit agaisnt our pitcher. . They won and it was overturned. They lost because a coach chose to cheat not because the team couldn't or didn't play.

Clear as mud

 

[luvsJack]

If an athlete uses a performance enhancing drug...

Or if a racecar is retrofitted with something contrary to race rules that allows it to perform better....

Then they still achieved the result, right?

Only they didn't because they used methods that allowed for Better performance when rules expressly prohibited that.

This team was stacked. It doesn't matter if little Johnny really got that Homerun if Johny was never supposed to be at bat in the first place. He didn't earn anything.

This isn't the same thing as using performance enhancing drugs or changing a race car. That kid was standing at that home plate and hit that ball because of his own ability. The team didn't deserve the win because the coach or whoever chose to cheat but that doesn't change the fact that the coach was not standing there guiding his bat.

The title was rightfully stripped. Doesn't mean the boys didn't play good ball.

 

[luvsJack]

Clear as mud

In Dixie Youth every player on the roster must play half an inning. The other team had last bat and had not played a player. In a previous game the boy struck out when he came up against this particular pitcher so the coach chose not to put him in. His choice allowed them to win and it was overturned because it was cheating.

 

[soccerdad72]

I'm not sure what that means. Why were you not surprised? I certainly was.

I wasn't surprised because I've seen too many youth sports go that route (i.e. skirting the edge of rules or outright cheating to gain an advantage).

Heck, I've been involved with rec level sports that had parents bend the rules to stack teams just to win a plastic trophy. And Little League is not exactly a sport without it's share of controversy over the years, unfortunately.

 

[kamik86]

This isn't the same thing as using performance enhancing drugs or changing a race car. That kid was standing at that home plate and hit that ball because of his own ability. The team didn't deserve the win because the coach or whoever chose to cheat but that doesn't change the fact that the coach was not standing there guiding his bat.

The title was rightfully stripped. Doesn't mean the boys didn't play good ball.

Yes the individual accomplishments of the kids are still their accomplishments. However the team still probably wouldn't have won without the cheating. You don't recruit your mediocre players from surrounding areas if your trying to recruit from surrounding areas your going for the kids you know play well. So those kids that shouldn't have been on the team are probably some of the better on the team.

As far as the kids go yeah they no longer are the championship team. However they still got experiences they probably didn't deserve that no one can take away from them. They got to meet the president, go to the MLB world series, play in the championship games, etc. So they got all these experiences which honestly probably are worth more then the title anyway. So as I said I feel bad for the second place team. The team that really earned these things playing by the rules and lost out on them.

What does losing the title really mean for the kids in all practicality? Probably nothing at all. As you said the kids themselves aren't being considered the cheaters and they still play good ball so that isn't going to impact if they can play in high school and college.

 

[daughtersrus]

So as I said I feel bad for the second place team. The team that really earned these things playing by the rules and lost out on them.

I feel bad for the teams that lost to them during the entire tournament. One of them lost out on the experience of playing for the championship. Who knows. Maybe one of them would have beat LV. At least LV got to experience the final game.

 

[JanaDee]

I'm not sure what that means. Why were you not surprised? I certainly was.

Have you had a child involved in Little League?

 

[murt22]

There are tournaments all over the country for select teams (AAU, other organizations) that allow you to have anyone on your team that follows the age rules. Little League was designed for everyone, that is why there are specific minimum playing rules and borders. On these select teams, often the players have to pay for their fees or raise money. By hooking to Little League - they actually are using the money from the League to further their cause. Since there were kids that could have qualified for the team, but were not chosen - they, in effect, helped fund the out of area players.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

This isn't the same thing as using performance enhancing drugs or changing a race car. That kid was standing at that home plate and hit that ball because of his own ability. The team didn't deserve the win because the coach or whoever chose to cheat but that doesn't change the fact that the coach was not standing there guiding his bat.

The title was rightfully stripped. Doesn't mean the boys didn't play good ball.

He was an enhancement to the team.

No one argued that they didn't play well. But his skills were unfairly added and this don't count.

He was the performance enhancement.

 

[robinb]

Have you had a child involved in Little League?

No, my DD swims. There is an amazing amount of drama. I suspect that goes for any youth sports.

 

[bcla]

Why would you make that accusation?

It's been reported by several news sources.

Evergreen Park Little League was actually the one I found when I mentioned looking up a Chicago area league where the community population was just under 20,000. I had no idea they were the ones who were suspected of reporting the violation.

 

[SirDuff]

Yes, they were turned in by a coach from Evergreen Park, a suburb on Chicago's northern border. I strongly suspect that some unflattering truths of their own will come out about Evergreen Park soon.

Why would you make that accusation?

It's been reported by several news sources.

Evergreen Park Little League was actually the one I found when I mentioned looking up a Chicago area league where the community population was just under 20,000. I had no idea they were the ones who were suspected of reporting the violation.

It's been reported that Evergreen has some "unflattering truths of their own"? I haven't seen those. That is what, I assume, Declansdad was questioning (and what I question myself). Not the fact that they were the ones that reported the violation.

 

[robinb]

Is exactly what happened clearer today? The facts were pretty sparse yesterday. I read that a District 4 administrator was fired too. Did he collude with JRW to redraw the boundaries? Or did JRW just pull kids into their team from outside their district?

 

[Rylee]

This isn't the same thing as using performance enhancing drugs or changing a race car. That kid was standing at that home plate and hit that ball because of his own ability. The team didn't deserve the win because the coach or whoever chose to cheat but that doesn't change the fact that the coach was not standing there guiding his bat.

The title was rightfully stripped. Doesn't mean the boys didn't play good ball.

Where the problem comes in is, if that child that stood at the plate, hit the ball, and played good ball, wasn't eligible to play on this team in the first place, his individual accomplishments helped advance this team to win.

I understand handing the National title to the Las Vegas team, as they were next in line to play in the LLWS game but, this affects every team that played in the All Stars tournament against the Chicago JRW team, starting with Districts, Sectionals, States and Regionals. If they were using ineligible players, they didn't fairly beat any of those teams, either.

Both my sons played All Stars every year they were eligible. They also play travel ball. The kids on their travel teams are chosen because they are the best of the best, however, during their LL season many of them play against each other on other teams because they live within different district boundaries. Had we recruited kids from other districts, maybe my sons' teams would have made it all the way to the LLWS, too, but that would be cheating.

We take our boys to Williamsport to watch the LLWS every year. We saw Chicago play this past year... we were rooting for them.

 

[luvsJack]

Where the problem comes in is, if that child that stood at the plate, hit the ball, and played good ball, wasn't eligible to play on this team in the first place, his individual accomplishments helped advance this team to win.

I understand handing the National title to the Las Vegas team, as they were next in line to play in the LLWS game but, this affects every team that played in the All Stars tournament against the Chicago JRW team, starting with Districts, Sectionals, States and Regionals. If they were using ineligible players, they didn't fairly beat any of those teams, either.

Both my sons played All Stars every year they were eligible. They also play travel ball. The kids on their travel teams are chosen because they are the best of the best, however, during their LL season many of them play against each other on other teams because they live within different district boundaries. Had we recruited kids from other districts, maybe my sons' teams would have made it all the way to the LLWS, too, but that would be cheating.

We take our boys to Williamsport to watch the LLWS every year. We saw Chicago play this past year... we were rooting for them.

Like I said, the league was right in taking the title. The coach or whoever decided to do this did it to the team. But there were other players right? Their efforts mattered too.

This is an all star team correct? So did the area the kids brought in came from not have an all star team? What happened to that team?

 

[Rylee]

Does anyone know how many players were ineligible? One, a few?

Also, did Evergreen Park call them out in the name of "fairness," or did this directly affect Evergreen, such as... one of the JRW ineligible players would have/should have played on the Evergreen All Star team?

 

[luvsJack]

He was an enhancement to the team.

No one argued that they didn't play well. But his skills were unfairly added and this don't count.

He was the performance enhancement.

Maybe LL all star teams are different but I have rarely seen that much difference in players abilities at the world series.
His skills were used unfairly yes but he earned the runs he scored or the outs he made.

All I was ever saying is that I feel for the kids because they played ball and adults screwed them out of it all. The players on this team and any team in the world series

 

[Rylee]

Like I said, the league was right in taking the title. The coach or whoever decided to do this did it to the team. But there were other players right? Their efforts mattered too.

This is an all star team correct? So did the area the kids brought in came from not have an all star team? What happened to that team?

That's what I'm wondering. Is Evergreen a bordering district and that coach/team feels ripped-off because JRW "recruited" one or more of their best players, leaving the Evergreen All Star team weaker? (I'm not familiar with the area.)

And I do feel bad for the boys. I started rooting for JRW from the time they start airing "The Road to the LLWS" on TV... (State Championship games, I think.) I just think little DJ Butler, (CF and coaches kid) is so cute, and remembered him from the year before. Although, I can honestly say, at 11, 12 years old, my kids understand the rules and definitely knew which school and districts other players were from and belonged in. The only way to put one over on them would to be to lie and tell them, the other child's family just moved into our district, or had special permission from some higher up board. Not that the boys had any control over what the adults in charge decide to do, and it's not their fault but I can't see how they wouldn't know.

 

[bcla]

Maybe LL all star teams are different but I have rarely seen that much difference in players abilities at the world series.
His skills were used unfairly yes but he earned the runs he scored or the outs he made.

All I was ever saying is that I feel for the kids because they played ball and adults screwed them out of it all. The players on this team and any team in the world series

I'm pretty sure that their parents were very aware of the violation. Also - the kids could very well have know that something wasn't right, even if they couldn't exactly put a finger on it.

The deal is that one team can be made up of kids from a larger area to find players with the most talent and/or a size advantage.