Lights of Winter - EPCOT archway ??

[Amy&Dan]

I am not even going during the holidays and this makes me really sad. I thought it was beautiful and I remember how awestruck my kids were the first time they saw that four years ago.

I will really miss them next time we go to Epcot at the holiday's.

The obsolete technology thing is a joke in my book. Its cutting costs plain and simple.

 

[WDSearcher]

I notice that many of the people that defend Disney's actions live in or near the area and have probably seen these things many,many times over the years and don't realize how disappointing it is to those of us who scrimp and save and journey from sometimes great distances. We all take for granted things in our own areas that seem like a big deal to visitors but are ho- hum to us. These people are also beneficiaries of the economic impact the parks bring to their area and are advocates and rightfully so. For many of us we're looking for a bit of nostalgia and perhaps something that brought a smile to our face when we were younger and just trying to recapture the "magic".

I think all of us "locals" do indeed appreciate the amount the out-of-towners and once-in-a-lifetime visitors scrimp and save to get to WDW. It's just that there's a reality that exists here in pixie dust land too. Yes, Disney has lots and lots of money. Disney also has lots and lots of stockholders who want the stock to make money. Disney has lots and lots of expenses. So when Disney looks at its balance sheet and decides that the theme parks are drawing just a bit too much out of the pot and they need to cut back some to better manage the economy or investor expectations or whatever, those decisions do need to be made. WDW execs are told to look at all of their offerings and figure out what can be cut out, cut back, changed, added, moved, redesigned or repurposed so that the overall experience remains magical and wonderful, even if individual offerings need to be changed to save money.

These decisions are hard. Disney execs do not make them lightly. They don't sit around in a room and throw darts at an "experience board" and cut what the dart hits. They KNOW that whatever they cut or change or reduce or add will make someone unhappy. They know that they will be inundated with letters and emails and tweets and phone calls no matter what they do. But they make the best decision they can at the moment. And then, once the decision is released, they go to the online message boards and blogs and tweets and read how stupid and money-grubbing and idiotic and unDisney they all are for changing what they had to change.

But they remain hopeful that, even though Fantasmic! is showing fewer times, the fact that they were able to keep Streetmosphere and Beauty & the Beast on full schedules because they saved some of the Fant! money will still give Guests magical experiences. Or they hope that, even though Mickey's 'Twas had to go away, people will enjoy the new Tomorrowland show. Clearly, they don't always hit it out of the park. But it's a tough job and I wouldn't want to do it.

The one thing we locals have that the out-of-towners don't is the perspective of many years of watching Disney and watching the tourism market bend and flux. Several years ago, the economy sunk and Disney made a series of cutbacks. The message boards (such as they were then) lit up with people complaining about what Disney took away. A few years later, when the economy righted itself, Disney added a bunch of stuff in -- new shows, character greetings, events, atmosphere, shops, resorts. They did the same thing in the late 1980s. And a couple times before then. The economy slides, and Disney cuts back. The economy recovers, and Disney adds stuff. So ... even though I see cuts right now, I know that historically, Disney will add and grow and give me all sorts of new entertainment as soon as it possibly can. I realize that doesn't help those of you making that once-in-a-lifetime Disney vacation during an economic downturn. But I will guarantee you that there is a LOT to see and do and enjoy and find magic in at WDW. Even without the Lights of Winter or Fantasmic! every night. Honest.

 

[Mouseaholic!!!]

True, and some people here are also CMs and take some comments personally sometimes, due to being part of Disney although deep down I am sure they know that Disney standarts went down unfortunately.

Trust me - they know very well....especially after staff cuts in January and March. They fully know what is important to Disney.

 

[KellyNY]

I think all of us "locals" do indeed appreciate the amount the out-of-towners and once-in-a-lifetime visitors scrimp and save to get to WDW. It's just that there's a reality that exists here in pixie dust land too. Yes, Disney has lots and lots of money. Disney also has lots and lots of stockholders who want the stock to make money. Disney has lots and lots of expenses. So when Disney looks at its balance sheet and decides that the theme parks are drawing just a bit too much out of the pot and they need to cut back some to better manage the economy or investor expectations or whatever, those decisions do need to be made. WDW execs are told to look at all of their offerings and figure out what can be cut out, cut back, changed, added, moved, redesigned or repurposed so that the overall experience remains magical and wonderful, even if individual offerings need to be changed to save money.

These decisions are hard. Disney execs do not make them lightly. They don't sit around in a room and throw darts at an "experience board" and cut what the dart hits. They KNOW that whatever they cut or change or reduce or add will make someone unhappy. They know that they will be inundated with letters and emails and tweets and phone calls no matter what they do. But they make the best decision they can at the moment. And then, once the decision is released, they go to the online message boards and blogs and tweets and read how stupid and money-grubbing and idiotic and unDisney they all are for changing what they had to change.

But they remain hopeful that, even though Fantasmic! is showing fewer times, the fact that they were able to keep Streetmosphere and Beauty & the Beast on full schedules because they saved some of the Fant! money will still give Guests magical experiences. Or they hope that, even though Mickey's 'Twas had to go away, people will enjoy the new Tomorrowland show. Clearly, they don't always hit it out of the park. But it's a tough job and I wouldn't want to do it.

The one thing we locals have that the out-of-towners don't is the perspective of many years of watching Disney and watching the tourism market bend and flux. Several years ago, the economy sunk and Disney made a series of cutbacks. The message boards (such as they were then) lit up with people complaining about what Disney took away. A few years later, when the economy righted itself, Disney added a bunch of stuff in -- new shows, character greetings, events, atmosphere, shops, resorts. They did the same thing in the late 1980s. And a couple times before then. The economy slides, and Disney cuts back. The economy recovers, and Disney adds stuff. So ... even though I see cuts right now, I know that historically, Disney will add and grow and give me all sorts of new entertainment as soon as it possibly can. I realize that doesn't help those of you making that once-in-a-lifetime Disney vacation during an economic downturn. But I will guarantee you that there is a LOT to see and do and enjoy and find magic in at WDW. Even without the Lights of Winter or Fantasmic! every night. Honest.

I understand your point, yet, cutting while increasing prices is very bad business. While new`visitors may not notice, returning visitors will and as I said before, there are too many attractions around that may simply take business away. For example Aquatica, I did not go but heard it is much beter then Disney water parks. Why instead of cutting they don't build more rooms, esp. value rooms. This way they will have more people staying on site instead of off site hotels and villas.

 

[Amy&Dan]

I think all of us "locals" do indeed appreciate the amount the out-of-towners and once-in-a-lifetime visitors scrimp and save to get to WDW. It's just that there's a reality that exists here in pixie dust land too. Yes, Disney has lots and lots of money. Disney also has lots and lots of stockholders who want the stock to make money. Disney has lots and lots of expenses. So when Disney looks at its balance sheet and decides that the theme parks are drawing just a bit too much out of the pot and they need to cut back some to better manage the economy or investor expectations or whatever, those decisions do need to be made. WDW execs are told to look at all of their offerings and figure out what can be cut out, cut back, changed, added, moved, redesigned or repurposed so that the overall experience remains magical and wonderful, even if individual offerings need to be changed to save money.

These decisions are hard. Disney execs do not make them lightly. They don't sit around in a room and throw darts at an "experience board" and cut what the dart hits. They KNOW that whatever they cut or change or reduce or add will make someone unhappy. They know that they will be inundated with letters and emails and tweets and phone calls no matter what they do. But they make the best decision they can at the moment. And then, once the decision is released, they go to the online message boards and blogs and tweets and read how stupid and money-grubbing and idiotic and unDisney they all are for changing what they had to change.

But they remain hopeful that, even though Fantasmic! is showing fewer times, the fact that they were able to keep Streetmosphere and Beauty & the Beast on full schedules because they saved some of the Fant! money will still give Guests magical experiences. Or they hope that, even though Mickey's 'Twas had to go away, people will enjoy the new Tomorrowland show. Clearly, they don't always hit it out of the park. But it's a tough job and I wouldn't want to do it.

The one thing we locals have that the out-of-towners don't is the perspective of many years of watching Disney and watching the tourism market bend and flux. Several years ago, the economy sunk and Disney made a series of cutbacks. The message boards (such as they were then) lit up with people complaining about what Disney took away. A few years later, when the economy righted itself, Disney added a bunch of stuff in -- new shows, character greetings, events, atmosphere, shops, resorts. They did the same thing in the late 1980s. And a couple times before then. The economy slides, and Disney cuts back. The economy recovers, and Disney adds stuff. So ... even though I see cuts right now, I know that historically, Disney will add and grow and give me all sorts of new entertainment as soon as it possibly can. I realize that doesn't help those of you making that once-in-a-lifetime Disney vacation during an economic downturn. But I will guarantee you that there is a LOT to see and do and enjoy and find magic in at WDW. Even without the Lights of Winter or Fantasmic! every night. Honest.

You make a lot of good points. But bear in mind this. Many of us travel in times when Disney sells hard tickets to events such as MNSSHP or MVMCP. On those nights, Wishes isn't showing, Fantasmic may not be and that leaves Illuminations as the only game in town. Years ago when we first started going, the Halloween Party didn't seem to go as often. Last October when we went, it felt like it was going almost every night. Stuff like that gets annoying. I mean what other conclusion can one draw except to think that "hmm, this hard ticket party is very expensive and its going all the time, I feel a bit jipped". I mean that is one example of how it feels like Disney is more about taking my money than offering me something for it. And don't even get me started on how many more tickets they sell to those events than they used to. And yeah, I still go when I can and I know its a business and why shouldn't they sell more tickets, but in the end, I'm allowed to wonder about all of this. During September-December, its not as easy to feel like there's something going on every night that is part of your base ticket.

I have a sil who works for Disney. I know about cutbacks and tough decisions. I know about tough times with money, heck my dh came home last night and informed me he's taking up to a 40% pay cut.

And I love Disney and still think overall, it does an amazing job. Yet eventually, it has to be said that they are charging more, offering less and it stinks. And there is no excuse for dirty restrooms and too few staff and that goes against everything Disney parks have been about for over 50 years now.

Our trip in March for 10 nights for four people, in a moderate with airfare, QSDP and tickets is $7,000. I just downgraded to Pop, axed the QSDP, park hoppers and water park options and I am still looking at 5K before we eat a bite of food. So yeah, I don't want to see stuff cut back when my price isn't lower. Its only natural for me to feel that way.

You yourself say they should put something equitable up to replace this thing. If they don't, what say you to that?

 

[BroganMc]

WDW execs are told to look at all of their offerings and figure out what can be cut out, cut back, changed, added, moved, redesigned or repurposed so that the overall experience remains magical and wonderful, even if individual offerings need to be changed to save money.

That's why this particular cut is getting so much resistance. Have you seen what the area looks like without the Lights?

Granted the tree lighting ceremony was nice but only for a certain time of the night. It lasted all of 20 minutes? Then it was done and most guests didn't even know anything about it. It made sense to cut that since it had so little show value in terms of how many guests could enjoy it per night.

But the Lights of Wonder arcade was lit all night. Every guest who walked into the countries and out again passed under those lights. Everyone was treated to their magical display. It didn't matter what time of the night or how long the guest stayed.

Now in their place we get a gospel choir which performs a few shows a night. We're back to that limited experience of the tree lighting ceremony in terms of how many guests can experience it. Disney is not going to get a good bang for their buck with this swap.

The whole promenade is plain and dull. It'll be more like Flower & Garden but without all the topiaries to attract people into sightseeing. Guests will walk in, stop at the tree to take a picture then hurry on into the countries. If they happen to go by when the gosper choir is singing they'll stop and gawk for a bit, but after their legs get tired of just standing there they will move on. Families with kids will be moving the fastest as their kids get bored with a music show and want to see something more interesting. That is a vastly inferior and UNmagical experience to me.

(I have seen that promenade multiple times of the year include NYE so know well what attracts crowds and what is a dud.)

Simarily for me, they stopped doing the Christmas overlay for the Country Bears the first year I went to Disney in December ('06). I had heard about this overlay before my trip and went to go see the show, not realizing it had been cut. When I saw it was the same old show as I see any other time of the year I dropped the bears from my park attractions. Now I don't bother with it at all in December. The show itself is drawing only a handful of people. It might as well stay closed for the MVMCPs. Now if they'd kept the Christmas show it would add a significant appeal to guests and get enough traffic to warrant the opening (and justify the added ticket price of a MVMCP).

While we can all sympathize with the need to balance cost vs. benefits in this economy, Disney needs to be careful they aren't cutting their noses to spite their faces. In other words, if it costs $50k to entertain 50k guests but only 10k to entertain 1k guests which is the better investment in park entertainment?

 

[murmkc]

The Walt Disney Company can, and should, do better.

They have the knowledge and the resources to handle any LOW issues in their sleep.

The reason that we are willing to put up with increasing prices is because the Walt Disney Company continues to impress us with wonderful new things...

This however, is an example of where they really missed the mark.

I will remain hopefull that someone at the mouse house reads and understands our point and makes up for this mistake in the future!

 

[Colleen27]

But if you want to stop it from happening, STOP GOING TO WDW! You (not you, specifically, but the collective "you") complain and moan and grouse and complain some more about how Disney is no longer the experience it once was, and then you head off to plan your next trip.

It's like constantly yelling at your kids for missing curfew and then not grounding them. It teaches them nothing. But you know ... Disney tosses a deal at you (again, the collective "you"), and everyone jumps to book their room and their free dining and their BBB appointments and their fireworks cruises. And then they complain and moan and grouse about how Disney is slipping.

It's kind of a remarkable phenomenon, if you think about it.

And that's the thing - Disney knows that most regulars won't quit coming. They sold DVC aggressively and have a locked-in base of regular customers who aren't going to waste the money they spent buying in just because they're upset over the loss of the LoW (or the Adventurers Club, or 'Twas, or over hard-ticket events 4 nights a week for a full 1/4 of the year, or about skyrocking dining prices, or shrinking menus, or impossible-to-get ADRs, etc., etc.), and they have a die-hard addicted fanbase that would go even if Disney were no better than Six Flags just because of the Mouse. So they don't have any reason to expend money or effort catering to those groups.

I think Disney has made a clear choice in their overall direction for WDW - a trip to Disney World is a childhood right-of-passage in our country, and they're shooting for that market... The endless supply of first-timers or very, very occasional visitors who don't have anything to compare their vacation experience to and are just happy to be there.

And for that reason, I'm not as sad as I expected to be that this holiday trip will be our last for a while; maybe a few years without going will be enough to forget the things that used to be there and let us just enjoy what is still offered, whatever that may be 3 or 4 years from now.

 

[macnbc]

Hi all,

Pardon me for not reading through all 20 pages, but one thing I'm trying to find out that keeps getting lost in the shuffle is whether or not the tree lighting ceremony has been brought back from its 2008 hiatus. I've heard some things that indicate a yes and some that indicate not.

Can anyone confirm?

 

[FigNewton]

Hi all,

Pardon me for not reading through all 20 pages, but one thing I'm trying to find out that keeps getting lost in the shuffle is whether or not the tree lighting ceremony has been brought back from its 2008 hiatus. I've heard some things that indicate a yes and some that indicate not.

Can anyone confirm?

That's the first time I've heard anyone suggest anything about it coming back. I'd be really surprised if it did.

 

[puntagordabob]

No Lights of Winter? What a senseless cut... a beautiful light display that really (if you have not seen it in person then you need to know the pictures are NO comparison to being in person) leaves its mark on the EPCOT Center visitors ... now the area is left with a drab, non-holiday look.... such a shame... Epcot is already has so little Holiday dressings......

It is doubly sad for our group....Grand Gathering of 30+ people arriving the 20th of November for 9 days of WDW..... and many of us talked about the Lights of Wonder, especially to our 1st visit members of the group... such a shame that they will not get to experience this.

I implore WDW to put the display up...cut the "preshow" lighting ceremony if you really need to save some $$...but for the Love of your devoted visitors, give us back our Lights of Winter....its these "small" cuts that really start to hurt all of us...think of it as a mosquito bite: one will likely cause little harm, but at some point (1000? 5000?) they will.

 

[KellyNY]

And that's the thing - Disney knows that most regulars won't quit coming. They sold DVC aggressively and have a locked-in base of regular customers who aren't going to waste the money they spent buying in just because they're upset over the loss of the LoW (or the Adventurers Club, or 'Twas, or over hard-ticket events 4 nights a week for a full 1/4 of the year, or about skyrocking dining prices, or shrinking menus, or impossible-to-get ADRs, etc., etc.), and they have a die-hard addicted fanbase that would go even if Disney were no better than Six Flags just because of the Mouse. So they don't have any reason to expend money or effort catering to those groups.

I think Disney has made a clear choice in their overall direction for WDW - a trip to Disney World is a childhood right-of-passage in our country, and they're shooting for that market... The endless supply of first-timers or very, very occasional visitors who don't have anything to compare their vacation experience to and are just happy to be there.

Actually return of the visitors depends on WOW factor. For me personally as well as for many others I am sure, parks are about the feel. We did rides so many times that we do not get upset if we miss some due to lines. We are coming for shows and dining and all the little details. Take it away from us and what left. As regulars we saw everything, we done everything, take all the details, do not train CMs properly so they do not look happy, make us impossible to get a table at restaurant, charge us more and more, and we may stop coming. Lets not forget Disney is not the only vacation destination.
Take first time visitors, if they not wowed they will not come back as well. Disney vacation costs me of what I could spend cruising(tons of activities), or at any island. I pay for magic and Disney quality. Lately all the changes make me very sad. I understand in our economy Disney try to save as well but, if we spend money on vacation in today economy do treat as you did before. Do not make us pay more and give us much less.

 

[DisneyNDecember]

The Disney Blog board is not posting all the blogs it receives, it only posted my 1st one & not my 2nd & 3rd, so there is WAY more than 235 comments which it is posting at this time, I bet they are overloaded with blogs about this because us faithful visitors are really disappointed !!

The thought of not seeing those lights with music is so disappointing, but I guess I need to change my name from DisneyNDecember, huh??

Pictures really do NOT do this Lights of Wonder justice, they are so more magical in person & dancing in harmony with the lights, so sad !!!!!!!!!!

 

[KellyNY]

The Disney Blog board is not posting all the blogs it receives, it only posted my 1st one & not my 2nd & 3rd, so there is WAY more than 235 comments which it is posting at this time, I bet they are overloaded with blogs about this because us faithful visitors are really disappointed !!

The thought of not seeing those lights with music is so disappointing, but I guess I need to change my name from DisneyNDecember, huh??

Pictures really do NOT do this Lights of Wonder justice, they are so more magical in person & dancing in harmony with the lights, so sad !!!!!!!!!!

Thank you for pictures. It looks/looked beautiful.

 

[Colleen27]

Actually return of the visitors depends on WOW factor. For me personally as well as for many others I am sure, parks are about the feel. We did rides so many times that we do not get upset if we miss some due to lines. We are coming for shows and dining and all the little details. Take it away from us and what left. As regulars we saw everything, we done everything, take all the details, do not train CMs properly so they do not look happy, make us impossible to get a table at restaurant, charge us more and more, and we may stop coming. Lets not forget Disney is not the only vacation destination.
Take first time visitors, if they not wowed they will not come back as well. Disney vacation costs me of what I could spend cruising(tons of activities), or at any island. I pay for magic and Disney quality. Lately all the changes make me very sad. I understand in our economy Disney try to save as well but, if we spend money on vacation in today economy do treat as you did before. Do not make us pay more and give us much less.

I don't think Disney is as interested as they once were in generating repeat visitors. Millions of babies are born every year, and at some point just by virtue of growing up in the USA, most will want to go to Disney World. It is such an iconic thing in our culture that Disney has a never ending supply of potential first-timers who have no idea what WDW was like last year or 5 years ago, and at this point it seems Disney's marketing strategy is much more focused on those easier-to-please one-time guests than on encouraging repeat visitors and customer loyalty.

I don't buy the economy as an excuse either. Quality is more important now, when people have less to spend and are being more selective about how they spend them, than when times are good and money is flowing freely, especially in a highly competitive industry like travel.

 

[KellyNY]

I don't think Disney is as interested as they once were in generating repeat visitors. Millions of babies are born every year, and at some point just by virtue of growing up in the USA, most will want to go to Disney World. It is such an iconic thing in our culture that Disney has a never ending supply of potential first-timers who have no idea what WDW was like last year or 5 years ago, and at this point it seems Disney's marketing strategy is much more focused on those easier-to-please one-time guests than on encouraging repeat visitors and customer loyalty.

I don't buy the economy as an excuse either. Quality is more important now, when people have less to spend and are being more selective about how they spend them, than when times are good and money is flowing freely, especially in a highly competitive industry like travel.

I totally agree, there are lots of babies and new commers and they will not run out of business, same like midwives. They lost 17% in profit as of now, wonder how much of loss due to non returning customers. I trust they do research as they always ask how many times you were at Disney when you book and they also have surveys at parks.

 

[RMulieri]

Lite Brites are still in the stores this Christmas, no?

Yup...Got one for my daughter for Christmas

 

[brunette8706]

Is anyone willing to craft a petition? If so, I'm sure you will get a ton of signatures. I wonder if they saw the ill-sentiments on the official WDW blog about this?

 

[Colleen27]

Is anyone willing to craft a petition? If so, I'm sure you will get a ton of signatures. I wonder if they saw the ill-sentiments on the official WDW blog about this?

Honestly I don't see the point. Look at all that has been done by fans in hopes of saving the Adventurer's Club, with no results.

 

[FigNewton]

Honestly I don't see the point. Look at all that has been done by fans in hopes of saving the Adventurer's Club, with no results.

I generally agree that internet petitions don't do any good. But comparing to Adventurer's Club is a bit apples and oranges. By comparison we're talking something that would be EASY to bring back with little to no overhead.