lesbians need not apply

[legalsea]

This reference by a poster to gays being treated like ‘second class citizens’ got me thinking: What does that actually mean?

I well recall when a gay could literally go to jail for his or her actions. I believe that every state in the country, back in 1968, had laws against homosexual behavior. It was literally treated on the same level as bestiality or incest. Discrimination against gays was rampant. In 1976 my college dormitory roommate was gay, but he kept it well hidden (although he did tell me). He did not feel safe to ‘come out of the closet’ until 1980.

I have been satisfied with the continuing growth of civil rights the gay community has been achieving. Is it perfect yet? Of course not. However, back in the mid 1970s I would not have predicted the level of acceptance gays have now achieved in society. It is no longer ‘big news’ that a gay person or couple are on reality television shows, or have successful careers in all sorts of fields; not all (military, football spring to mind) but most.

If you think in the USA gays are truly treated as second class citizens, simply travel to any Arab county in the Middle East and walk down the street showing affection to your significant other. Within minutes you will realize just how far the USA has come in just a few decades. Indeed, in some of those countries you will be quickly tried and sentenced to death (that is, if you can avoid the stoning by the crowd beforehand).

The original discussion was about whether a church school was ‘right’ in expelling two lesbians. I believe that most of the posters realized that, in order for the First Amendment to have any meaning concerning the freedom of religion, the church school was within their legal right. If you are gay, do not go to a church school. If you do go to some place like Bob Jones University, get found out, and get expelled, there is little reason for you to complain about your treatment. In the immortal words of the youth of today “It is what it is”.

 

[Uncle Remus]

Will your food bank be able to handle the influx of hungry folks from all the religious affiliated food banks that you want shut down?

The sheer number of religion based organizations that do good things in this country would not easily be replaced. Sure, most of us who are committed to doing good work would probably move over to work in secular organizations that would have to be created -but why create that upheaval? Isn't it simpler and doesn't it help more people when we allow both to exist?

Yes, we should allow both to exist because gays are not welcome.
Where would the gays go, if we didn't have secular options?

 

[RitaE]

Maybe the churches could go back to preachin' in churches 'n leave education, medicine 'n other facets of business to the real world?

Really?

Because if the local church based schools in my school district were to close their doors and return the students to the Public School, the enrollment at the public school would see an immediate population increase of 40%.

Is your local School District equipped to handle that many more kids Uncle Remus? 'Cause I have to tell you that in OUR Public Schools they already have 3rd grade classes of 32 children.

 

[mkingdomlvr]

Yes, we should allow both to exist because gays are not welcome.
Where would the gays go, if we didn't have secular options?

but that isn't what you said-you originally wanted the churches to "stick to preachin'" and leave everything else to the "real world"

I completely agree that we should allow both to exist. Not everyone wants to be part of or even receive help from a religious organization and there needs to be options for them as well.

 

[Goofyluver]

So is that a yes or a no to the questions I raised? If gays are granted equal rights will we be seeing lawsuits over marriages and ministers being taken out of churches in orange jumpsuits for preaching on the letters of Paul? Will we be seeing churches forced to employ openly gay people or face a lawsuit?

If you think that's ok, then reverse it. Should a Baptist who believes homosexuality is a sin be allowed to sue a gay rights organization for religious discrimination because they won't hire him?

Are you afraid the gays are trying to snatch your religion?

You DO realize homosexuality and religion/Christianity are not mutually exclusive?

 

[Goofyluver]

Not blind at all, just not in line with your beliefs.

So, you don't believe in equal rights for gays and lesbians. Got it.

 

[Uncle Remus]

This reference by a poster to gays being treated like ‘second class citizens’ got me thinking: What does that actually mean?

I well recall when a gay could literally go to jail for his or her actions. I believe that every state in the country, back in 1968, had laws against homosexual behavior. It was literally treated on the same level as bestiality or incest. Discrimination against gays was rampant. In 1976 my college dormitory roommate was gay, but he kept it well hidden (although he did tell me). He did not feel safe to ‘come out of the closet’ until 1980.

I have been satisfied with the continuing growth of civil rights the gay community has been achieving. Is it perfect yet? Of course not. However, back in the mid 1970s I would not have predicted the level of acceptance gays have now achieved in society. It is no longer ‘big news’ that a gay person or couple are on reality television shows, or have successful careers in all sorts of fields; not all (military, football spring to mind) but most.

If you think in the USA gays are truly treated as second class citizens, simply travel to any Arab county in the Middle East and walk down the street showing affection to your significant other. Within minutes you will realize just how far the USA has come in just a few decades. Indeed, in some of those countries you will be quickly tried and sentenced to death (that is, if you can avoid the stoning by the crowd beforehand).

The original discussion was about whether a church school was ‘right’ in expelling two lesbians. I believe that most of the posters realized that, in order for the First Amendment to have any meaning concerning the freedom of religion, the church school was within their legal right. If you are gay, do not go to a church school. If you do go to some place like Bob Jones University, get found out, and get expelled, there is little reason for you to complain about your treatment. In the immortal words of the youth of today “It is what it is”.

Short version: Equal rights for gays in this country translates to many folks as "special rights."

 

[Master Mason]

Are you afraid the gays are trying to snatch your religion?

You DO realize homosexuality and religion/Christianity are not mutually exclusive?

Nope I am worried about tossing out the first ammendment and the right to the free exercise of your religion. Again with those pesky civil rights.

 

[mkingdomlvr]

Are you afraid the gays are trying to snatch your religion?

You DO realize homosexuality and religion/Christianity are not mutually exclusive?

I'm concerned that religions who believe that homosexual activity is sinful will be punished for their beliefs. I don't want to see churches sued and I don't want to see people arrested for hate speech for reading the letters of Paul out loud.

I feel that I've been very clear throughout this thread that I'm aware there are religions who do NOT believe homosexual activity is sinful.

 

[Goofyluver]

Nope I am worried about tossing out the first ammendment and the right to the free exercise of your religion. Again with those pesky civil rights.

So you're protecting your rights by denying gays and lesbians equal rights?

Makes sense to me.

 

[Master Mason]

So, you don't believe in equal rights for gays and lesbians. Got it.

Please do enumerate what those currently are. And I know your going to toss out marriage, so don't, because while you don't like it, currently everyone has the exact same right to a same sex marriage, gay or straight.

What else do you have?

 

[Master Mason]

So you're protecting your rights by denying gays and lesbians equal rights?

Makes sense to me.

They have no rights within the church unless they want to conform to that particular churches teachings.

Should I be able to demand that the Muslim church start a bible class because they are not giving me equal access?

 

[Uncle Remus]

Really?

Because if the local church based schools in my school district were to close their doors and return the students to the Public School, the enrollment at the public school would see an immediate population increase of 40%.

Is your local School District equipped to handle that many more kids Uncle Remus? 'Cause I have to tell you that in OUR Public Schools they already have 3rd grade classes of 32 children.

I'm all for education, quality education.

If we have to pay more for education, I'm not opposed to that.

 

[Sorsha]

I'm concerned that religions who believe that homosexual activity is sinful will be punished for their beliefs. I don't want to see churches sued and I don't want to see people arrested for hate speech for reading the letters of Paul out loud.

Actually, I agree with you here. Although I am fully in support of gay rights, I can see that there is going to have to be very clear language as to how churches and such will be dealt with under such laws. In so much as I believe GLBT should have equal rights, I also don't believe church congregations and ministers should be punished for what is said inside their churches.

This is actually an issue right now in MT. We have legislation working its way through our state government to add homosexuals to those "protected" under the definition of hate crimes. The most vocal opponents are, of course, churches, but not because of any theological issues. More because they wonder, just as you wonder mkingdomlvr, if they will then be breaking the law when they preach their sermons?

I think, thankfully, the legislation will pass eventually, but IMHO it is going to have to contain some really tricky wrangling of church/state separation and/or a lot of legalspeak. (Oh legalsea, where are you....)

 

[legalsea]

When arguing with fools, don't answer their foolish arguments, or you will become as foolish as they are.

 

[Master Mason]

I'm all for education, quality education.

If we have to pay more for education, I'm not opposed to that.

Paying more does not equate to quality education, every single study on the subject will prove that. It is all about how that money is spent, or wasted as the case may be. As well as the willingness of the students and the parents to participate.

 

[Goofyluver]

Please do enumerate what those currently are. And I know your going to toss out marriage, so don't, because while you don't like it, currently everyone has the exact same right to a same sex marriage, gay or straight.

What else do you have?

There is no equality in inequality.

http://www.marriageequality.org/index.php?page=why-marriage

http://speakout.com/activism/gayrights/

http://www.aclu.org/lgbt/

How many sources do you need to justify the discrimination in this country? Is 3 enough?

Denial is not only blind, it's laughable.

 

[Master Mason]

There is no equality in inequality.

http://www.marriageequality.org/index.php?page=why-marriage

http://speakout.com/activism/gayrights/

How many sources do you need to justify the discrimination in this country? Is 2 enough?

Denial is not only blind, it's laughable.

So you have one issue is what your saying?? And one that is clear that everyone in the country is currently treated exactly equally on huh?

 

[Goofyluver]

So you have one issue is what your saying?? And one that is clear that everyone in the country is currently treated exactly equally on huh?

Yes. It's one issue. Reading comprehension. It's a good thing. And I added a link for ya'.

 

[mkingdomlvr]

When arguing with fools, don't answer their foolish arguments, or you will become as foolish as they are.

That wouldn't be a personal attack now-would it?