Just home, my thoughts

[Lisa loves Pooh]

I don't really remember MK NOT having a regularly scheduled nightly fireworks show....and I've been going almost every year since 1972. Are you sure about that? What period/years are you talking about?

I do--but don't recall circumstances. Maybe the 80s/90s?

I also recall earlier closing times unrelated to a party.

But it could be a false memory. Just seems like MK is open later more consistently than it had been in my youth (unless a party night).

 

[GAN]

Every night, in 1972:

Imagine. $10 for a family ....what's that in today's dollars I wonder? Whatever it is I know my father never would have sprung for it!

 

[L&Lfan]

Disneyland definitely has kept most of the magic that Walt Disney World has lost, imo! Why is California so dang far from New Jersey? We only get to the west coast every 4-5 years!

 

[minniemous]

I went to Disney World regularly with my Family from the age of 4 to around 13. Then a couple times as a young adult with friends in 1996. Then there was a long period from the year 2000 to 2010 when I did not go at all. Then the arrival of our daughter in 2009 and we went in 2011. That 2011 trip was the best trip ever as well as having a great time in 2013 and 2014.

It is all relative. My daughter thinks Disney is the best place ever. She does not know "the good old days" ....she thinks Disney World is the best place on earth. People who do not have young kids and have been around for the what they consider better Disney Days I can totally understand the disappointment. People have very valid points concerning their disappointments. The best days of Disney for us are right now because I am there with my family and she is so happy on the vacation.

Taking everything under consideration this is a great vacation with more entertainment than we can possibly all enjoy. If my daughter was older and things were going down hill I might be in the same boat as the OP. I loved looking at the thread with pictures of disney bygone era and reminisce some of the lost attractions. However I will not let that stop me from giving my daughter the experience of having the same good memories I have of those Disney vacations I had when I was a kid. Who knows the good old days to me might not seem nearly as good to her. I am not so happy about magic bands etc but she thinks they are awesome and like magic.

 

[JimmyV]

But it could be a false memory. Just seems like MK is open later more consistently than it had been in my youth (unless a party night).

Definitely not a false memory. The MK stays open late much more often now. For example, in February, 2007, there were 16 days when the MK closed at either 7:00 or 8:00 (and one of those days was a p.m. EMH day). In February, 2015, the MK never closed at 7:00 or 8:00. But this can be spun either way. Some would argue that it needs to be open late because with more people in the park, you need more time to do stuff. And many love those late hours. Others would contend that when the MK closes at 7:00 or 8:00, it pushes you toward doing things that you might otherwise skip. I remember my first February trip, in 2001. I thought I would hate the "off season". But I came to love it because it allowed us to do evening entertainment that we always skipped while in commando mode. Personal preference. But you are right. Hours at the MK are much more extended now.

 

[JimmyV]

Whatever it is I know my father never would have sprung for it!

I know exactly what you mean!!

 

[momimouse27]

This thread and especially the OP makes me really sad. Sad, because I've been visiting Disney for over 30 years and sad because I am leaving for a much anticipated trip in less than 2 months. We skipped a full length trip last year to be able to afford this one. I know what is happening there, I keep up with it, and I agree with alot of what has been said, especially some of what has been said about this year in particular.

But I am essentially a positive person. I guess if I'm spending $5000 on a vacation, I need to be, right?

Some of the magic has rubbed off for myself and family because my kids aren't little anymore. They don't care much about the characters and its just a different experience. Also, I have an autistic son who requires alot of my time and energy to accomodate what makes him comfortable. Yes, the lines are a bit longer and there's construction in many places. Yes, FP+ I agree requires too much strict planning to make me comfortable. The food really for me has never been anything overly spectacular at Disney. I have my favorites and usually am not disapppointed...BUT

The magic that still is there is because my daughters aren't babies anymore, but they love Disney as adults because I instilled that into them. They now get excited over where to eat and what resort we'll try instead of meeting Mickey. They are learning how to plan a trip and what goes into it...including the finances. The magic is still there because a little boy who hates loud noises and gets nervous in crowds of people still begs me to go to Disney World. Its a place that he sees as different from the real world, and that makes him happy. Even though we've seen every ride a thousand times, we'll probably always go because it means something to my family.

Yes, there definitely needs to be changes. They've happend a t MK-I think the changes have all been positive. Toon Town was getting old and it was an entire section of the park enjoyed only by very young children. I for one love NFL, especially Little Mermaid, it is now my son's favorite ride. DHS, I agree wholeheartedly has become a shadow of its former self. But, what we're seeing now is necessary for the future. There has to be a change there and Disney is making it. I agree Star Wars being a major part would solidify it as a worthy park again. My family and I are still crossing our fingers for something Toy Story themed being central or a copy of CarsLand. But it was not a good choice to shut down Idol right now, its no more a full day park for us. Also, IJ has to go and we all think the Muppet 3-D desperately needs updating. Epcot is still our favorite. There are things that need to change, but we still love it. The biggest misstep with Epcot-for me-has been the underuse and quiet deterioration of Innoventions. I used to love that place, now there's nothing there.
AK has nver been a favorite with me. We have a zoo in Atlanta, and I have no need to see one at Disney. We ride the safari, go on Kali River Rapids, my kids do EE and that's it. I'm excited about what's going on in Disney Springs. But, yes it probably has a lot to do with right now.

Fortunately, I think Universal and their building on the Harry Potter stuff has forced Disney to rethink what's happening in their parks. Competition is always healthy for the consumer and that's especially true in this case.

 

[alvernon90]

I remember my first February trip, in 2001. I thought I would hate the "off season". But I came to love it because it allowed us to do evening entertainment that we always skipped while in commando mode. Personal preference. But you are right. Hours at the MK are much more extended now.

This is so true. When we went in September 2002, at the depths of the slowdown caused by the September 11 attacks, most nights of the trip MK closed at 6:00, along with early closures for AK and MGM. Not wanting to do Epcot every single night, we went out and did lots of other stuff: playing games at DisneyQuest, getting bombed at Jellyrolls, playing mini-golf, getting bombed at the Adventurer's Club, eating at resort restaurants, etc. I was disappointed not to see MK after dark, but on the nights it was open late I hated it because the parks were so much more crowded. I'd take shorter hours and miniscule crowds over the alternative any day.

When a WDW vacation means that you have to skip out on the other stuff WDW offers in order to devote more of your time standing in lines (rides, beverages, security, FP+ kiosks), you may as well go to Disneyland instead. DL may not be an entire vacation kingdom, but it doesn't have all of those hassles, either.

 

[JimmyV]

I'd take shorter hours and miniscule crowds over the alternative any day.

This is where I eventually landed. Sitting in Mizner's sipping a Single Malt listening to jazz, I thought: "You know what? This doesn't suck!"

I was disappointed not to see MK after dark, but on the nights it was open late I hated it because the parks were so much more crowded.

As to this point, we had a remedy for that. It was called E-RIDE NIGHTS!!! Something that has been left out of this discussion entirely, and something that I need to add to the "Things You Don't See Anymore" thread!

 

[Josh Hendy]

Take a look at the "Things You No Longer See At WDW Thread" and the crowd levels, (or lack thereof) back in the day when FP did not exist. The attendance at the MK in 1992 is reported to be 11.5 million. 1994 was 11.2 million. When FP was introduced in 1999, it was 15.2 million. Now?17-18 million. Limit attendance to 11 million per year and you can take FP away. A typical wait time for a headliner would be less than 30 minutes. If you let 18 million people loose in the park without a ride avoidance system, you would be back to the days when you bought an 8 Attraction Ticket Book and would have difficulty using up all 8 tickets. If all you did today was wait in lines, that would not form your best memories.

This is the key issue. They've got about 50% more guests but I'm sure they've added nowhere near as many "things to do", meaning rides and shows. The extra-$$$ cookies and candy parties and the ride rationing system are their solutions to the problem.

They've bet the farm on being able to give each guest fewer rides, fewer live shows and fewer (shorter) character interactions and still be able to maintain or increase profits. It seems to be an excellent business strategy so far. But if it happens that they've been slowly eroding the perceived quality and value of their brand, from both disappointed old-timers and first-time guests, then they'll be in for a rough time. If it turns out that they've miscalculated, it could be a really long, expensive struggle to re-build capacity (rides and shows) back to whatever their customers think is "good value" for their money.

If it turns out that the 1994 ratio of attractions-per-guest is what the public considers to be good value, they won't be able to just nibble away at the problem by doing double-dumbo, double-midway-mania and adding a couple more rides and a couple of new, small-sized lands here and there ... especially when older attractions are being closed down or else have simply lost the ability to entertain anyone (like Ellen's Energy and the lame, boring, 1960s-era audio-animatronic shows). It's gonna take a brand-new, full-sized land in every existing park increasing attraction capacity by maybe 20%, plus a whole new park.

 

[lauradis]

I think that there is every reason to believe that 2021 will be a good (and crowded) year to go!

This is why and your other pervious post that we are jumping off the wdw vacation till 2020 after dec 2015 trip

 

[lauradis]

I think you are conflating "prime" with "good old days". The two concepts are different. There were more attractions, more entertainment, more "atmosphere", more nightlife, more dining options between 2005-2010 than at any other time in WDW's history. When people compare their 2007 trip to today, that drop off is noticeable. Just pull out an old guide map from then and look at the list of entertainers at Epcot who are no longer on the payroll, and who have not been replaced by anything else. Look at DHS and how many more attractions there were. Anyone going in to DHS today who remembers spending an entire day (or day and a half) at DHS will wonder what the heck happened when they hit the lunch hour and have run out of things to do. It is often said here (and elsewhere), that it is the "little things" that make WDW so special, and all the "details". And it is exactly the "little things" like live performers at Epcot that make the difference. Let alone working pavilions like Wonders of Life.

Sure pick years that travel was in the toilet and prices were lower for " Epcot" best years

Epcot is a toddler in Disney years.

 

[GAN]

This is the key issue. They've got about 50% more guests but I'm sure they've added nowhere near as many "things to do", meaning rides and shows. The extra-$$$ cookies and candy parties and the ride rationing system are their solutions to the problem.

They've bet the farm on being able to give each guest fewer rides, fewer live shows and fewer (shorter) character interactions and still be able to maintain or increase profits. It seems to be an excellent business strategy so far. But if it happens that they've been slowly eroding the perceived quality and value of their brand, from both disappointed old-timers and first-time guests, then they'll be in for a rough time. If it turns out that they've miscalculated, it could be a really long, expensive struggle to re-build capacity (rides and shows) back to whatever their customers think is "good value" for their money.

If it turns out that the 1994 ratio of attractions-per-guest is what the public considers to be good value, they won't be able to just nibble away at the problem by doing double-dumbo, double-midway-mania and adding a couple more rides and a couple of new, small-sized lands here and there ... especially when older attractions are being closed down or else have simply lost the ability to entertain anyone (like Ellen's Energy and the lame, boring, 1960s-era audio-animatronic shows). It's gonna take a brand-new, full-sized land in every existing park increasing attraction capacity by maybe 20%, plus a whole new park.

What they've done is make a WDW vacation more "affordable" -which means more people at the parks at any given time. Sounds crazy when for some it's a $5k vacation, but a family of 4 can stay at a value resort for a week with free dining and passes for a few grand easy(I'm DVC so I haven't booked a trip in a while so I'm throwing that number out there) -no? Some families can swing that every year or every other year. When I was a kid, and as a young adult, I'd be lucky to go every 5-years.

I'm convinced no matter how badly the quality erodes, there will always be people walking through the gate. The number of people demanding the quality us "old-timers" remember is slowly dwindling ...and Disney knows this and that is their new sweet-spot.

 

[pjhootch]

It seems like people newer to the World are generally happier with the experience than some of us that go back a way. Even though I have always enjoyed Disney World and Disneyland, I have never really been all wrapped up in the "magic" like a lot of people are. I'm kind of odd it seems, on these boards. I am ambivalent about most stage shows, try to avoid the mess and chaos of the parades, and think the fireworks are kind of cool if I happen to be in the right place at the right time. I like the food okay at some of the restaurants in WDW, but never NEVER have thought any of it equal to food at comparable prices in regular restaurants. A $50 entree at WDW is what I would expect from a $25 entree just about anywhere else. I still schedule a few of those meals and enjoy them, but I don't have an illusions about what I am buying. I am paying for the restaurant, in WDW, for the atmosphere, convenience/experience... not for a first rate meal. If the food sometimes is really good? That is great.

We go for the rides and general experience mostly. So that makes our family fairly easy to please. Way back in the thread someone asked how we dealt with lines pre fastpass. I think the best answer is that most savvy frequent fliers knew how to avoid the worst of the lines strategically. The folks that got stuck in line for a long time were people that hadn't learned to go early, or late, or move on to a different part of the park and return later. We all knew which rides we had to just give up and wait for, and how to keep the wait to a minimum. The people that got suckered were the ones that didn't know better. Or didn't learn quickly.

When FP started, we learned how to work that pretty quickly once we figured it out. My whole family could move around the entire MK at Christmas or Thanksgiving and do basically everything we wanted in one day. But folks, keep in mind too, things really were different crowdwise at that point. During some of these same years we went to Disneyland on Thanksgiving because the park was open fairly late but drop dead empty a lot of those hours. Things really have changed all over.

So I will be completely honest here. One of the things that is driving me crazy is basically that I no longer have an advantage over people that haven't got everything all figured out yet. Yeah- I don't like it. Disney leveled the playing field on me and I am now struggling to accomplish half of what I used to manage- in a longer period of time, surrounded by more people.

 

[chrissyb2411]

Wow, this thread has exploded!

I appreciate all the comisseration and story's both positive and negative experiences.

As to expectations, no, it was not a matter of my expectations being too high. I'm generally a person with low expectations. Very easy to please. There was just so much about this vacation that felt rushed, pushed, herded it was unfortunate. Interestingly I didn't feel the same mentality at universal the two days we spent there. Funny enough one of the days was pouring rain, we were drenched, but it felt more relaxed, more fun, more something I can't put my finger on. I had booked universal because dh is not a Disney fan. I never expected to enjoy it much, I love my disney! But right now if I planned another trip to Florida universal would be on my list, not Disney. And honestly, I hate that lol.

As to the meet and greet times, I think some people are not getting what I mean. Anna and elsa felt rushed. Elsa literally drapes an arm around a kid and herds them on mid sentance. I was thinking about the few other meet and greets we did. Chip and dale in HS was probably just as quick. But they goofed, and hugged, and played, and never once ushered dd out. It certainly wasn't much longer, a minute and a half, 2 minutes at most, but it didn't feel like we were shoved out. And chip and dale don't even talk! And honestly, if disney really cared about guest experience wouldn't they limit more the number of people either getting in line or booking a fast past for these hot ticket meet and greet / rides? It feels now like it's more about quantity and how many people can we pack through an attraction a day, and less about ensuring the quality of the experience is good. Sure there will always be those people that want more, bigger, better, but I assure you that's not me.

I was interested to read the thought about Disney's best times in the mid 2000's. We went in 2008, and 2010. I remember we noticed a few downgrades in 2010, bus issues, toon town closed, bad service at the resort. But I don't remember feeling letdown at the end.

It was still a good time, because let's face it, anytime you don't have to pack lunches, heard kids into the school bus, help with homework, shovel snow you're winning. The kids had some great times. It wasn't all awful, and overall I would rate it "ok". It just wasn't enough to consider going back anytime soon.

 

[Angel Ariel]

Sure pick years that travel was in the toilet and prices were lower for " Epcot" best years

Epcot is a toddler in Disney years.

How is Epcot a toddler in Disney years? It's 32 years old. MK is 43 years old. DHS is 25 (soon 26) and AK is only 16 years old (almost 17). I could see maybe saying that AK was a toddler in Disney years, but not Epcot.

 

[mom2rtk]

Wow, this thread has exploded!

I appreciate all the comisseration and story's both positive and negative experiences.

As to expectations, no, it was not a matter of my expectations being too high. I'm generally a person with low expectations. Very easy to please. There was just so much about this vacation that felt rushed, pushed, herded it was unfortunate. Interestingly I didn't feel the same mentality at universal the two days we spent there. Funny enough one of the days was pouring rain, we were drenched, but it felt more relaxed, more fun, more something I can't put my finger on. I had booked universal because dh is not a Disney fan. I never expected to enjoy it much, I love my disney! But right now if I planned another trip to Florida universal would be on my list, not Disney. And honestly, I hate that lol.

As to the meet and greet times, I think some people are not getting what I mean. Anna and elsa felt rushed. Elsa literally drapes an arm around a kid and herds them on mid sentance. I was thinking about the few other meet and greets we did. Chip and dale in HS was probably just as quick. But they goofed, and hugged, and played, and never once ushered dd out. It certainly wasn't much longer, a minute and a half, 2 minutes at most, but it didn't feel like we were shoved out. And chip and dale don't even talk! And honestly, if disney really cared about guest experience wouldn't they limit more the number of people either getting in line or booking a fast past for these hot ticket meet and greet / rides? It feels now like it's more about quantity and how many people can we pack through an attraction a day, and less about ensuring the quality of the experience is good. Sure there will always be those people that want more, bigger, better, but I assure you that's not me.

I was interested to read the thought about Disney's best times in the mid 2000's. We went in 2008, and 2010. I remember we noticed a few downgrades in 2010, bus issues, toon town closed, bad service at the resort. But I don't remember feeling letdown at the end.

It was still a good time, because let's face it, anytime you don't have to pack lunches, heard kids into the school bus, help with homework, shovel snow you're winning. The kids had some great times. It wasn't all awful, and overall I would rate it "ok". It just wasn't enough to consider going back anytime soon.

I get that sometimes the characters have off days. Honestly, if we had a poor visit with my child's favorite character, I'd consider trying it again another day, or later that same day. But their choice to keep this a such a hard to access meet has made that a pretty hard thing to do.

Like you, I also aspire to having an expensive Disney vacation be "better than shoveling show". Or at least better than "it wasn't awful". I think your story resonated with a fair number of posters here.

 

[GAN]

Way back in the thread someone asked how we dealt with lines pre fastpass.

That would be the original Disney marathon, aka the "Space Mountain Mini Marathon" which took place at rope drop through Tomorrowland Terrace.

Maybe that should be posted in the thread about things no longer found at WDW?

 

[flicx]

I truly think the mid 90's to early 2000's were what I considered the best era for Disney to date. So much was constructed in that era, prices were very affordable, especially in offseason. Heck they were still putting up whole parks then.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

How is Epcot a toddler in Disney years? It's 32 years old. MK is 43 years old. DHS is 25 (soon 26) and AK is only 16 years old (almost 17). I could see maybe saying that AK was a toddler in Disney years, but not Epcot.

That's almost as bad as being reminded this week that The Breakfast Club is 30 years old.

I weep.