Just back and not happy

[2Tiggies]

2012 we walked out the door of BC on the way to DHS and saw the boat pull out. Rather than wait or walk we changed gears and went to Epcot, just because we felt like it. Epcot is my favorite park.

Spaceship Earth never in my memory, had a late afternoon/ early evening line as most guests hit it earlier on the way in. Now it does so we don't bother backtracking before dinner it has a line.

The other issue is we like waterparks. You don't know until the day before if you are going. All my days were planned AK/WP or EP/WP or MK/WP or DHS/WP. I now have to make a choice months ahead of time. Get morning FP+ no waterpark or evening and hope the weather is good.

This is one of the problems we are trouble shooting this week. Having come unstuck with waterpark plans due to weather in the past, we would have liked to be able to do what works for us - pretty much an either or plan like yours.

Our solution has been to allocate a few half days to waterparks with our FP's for earlier/later in the day booked well clear of our anticipated arrival/departure time. It does mean we now have 4 potentially 'wasted' half days, whereas before we could have used two of any of them and reverted to plan A just switching days ..... not sure if any of that makes sense, but I am 100% in agreement with you.

 

[Disney Frenhines]

if they had built 10 to 15 new attractions there would be threads on this board complaining about being disappointed by the attractions they built. No matter what they were.



Now this is something realistic that they could actually do! Stop cutting back on staffing.

Completely agree, however it's not just Disney doing this to save wages and increase profits, sadly it's a world wide business phenomena, I worked for a large UK corporation 4 years ago, I quit after two years as they cut staffing to it's bare bones and I got fed up of customer complaints about waiting times and lack of staff to help and being run ragged, too exhausting for me.

 

[JimmyV]

So now we're talking about two different things, entirely. People were saying that lines are much longer because of MM+ and I think based on your post we're at least "status quo" so the complaints are not valid.

Now we can talk about the investment in MM+ and did we benefit, vs. had the Disney Corp (not WDW) take that same money and build something "tangible" in WDW (i.e. a roller-coaster). Me personally? I want rides; however, I can easily see where this will benefit Disney on a global scale.

As to the bolded:
1. To be fair, my post was not an authoratative statement on line length. I was paraphrasing your earlier post that things now are not out of the ordinary. I adopted your premise for purposes of my post without necessarily agreeing with it. I'm not there on a day to day basis so I don't feel confident in drawing a conclusion one way or the other. But sites like TP and easywdw are there every day. Neither site has proclaimed that a major shift (positive or negative) in line length has occurred, so I'll buy their conclusions.

2. A typical roller coaster (which many people fear appearing at WDW) would cost south of $30M. Even one that is dressed up by the Imagineers would have a tough time cracking $100M. So the "something tangible" that Disney could have built with $1.5B goes far beyond a roller coaster. For comparison sake, Universal built a "Revenge of the Mummy" ride in its Singapore park in 2010 and the cost was around $30M. Personally, I would rather have seen Disney build 20 rides the caliber of "Mummy" for $600M. Even rounding that up to $1B, I would still rather have seen 20 such rides than plastic wrist bands. But that's just me.

 

[TwinPrincessMermaids]

Even rounding that up to $1B, I would still rather have seen 20 such rides than plastic wrist bands. But that's just me.

Its not just you!

 

[JoeA]

As to the bolded:
1. To be fair, my post was not an authoratative statement on line length. I was paraphrasing your earlier post that things now are not out of the ordinary. I adopted your premise for purposes of my post without necessarily agreeing with it. I'm not there on a day to day basis so I don't feel confident in drawing a conclusion one way or the other. But sites like TP and easywdw are there every day. Neither site has proclaimed that a major shift (positive or negative) in line length has occurred, so I'll buy their conclusions.

2. A typical roller coaster (which many people fear appearing at WDW) would cost south of $30M. Even one that is dressed up by the Imagineers would have a tough time cracking $100M. So the "something tangible" that Disney could have built with $1.5B goes far beyond a roller coaster. For comparison sake, Universal built a "Revenge of the Mummy" ride in its Singapore park in 2010 and the cost was around $30M. Personally, I would rather have seen Disney build 20 rides the caliber of "Mummy" for $600M. Even rounding that up to $1B, I would still rather have seen 20 such rides than plastic wrist bands. But that's just me.

I think we can find common ground with the rides. I guess my only point is that we're talking about what we want, vs. a global strategy. As I said multiple times, I'm not going back anytime soon because of the lack of "new:.

 

[jade1]

As to the bolded:
1. To be fair, my post was not an authoratative statement on line length. I was paraphrasing your earlier post that things now are not out of the ordinary. I adopted your premise for purposes of my post without necessarily agreeing with it. I'm not there on a day to day basis so I don't feel confident in drawing a conclusion one way or the other. But sites like TP and easywdw are there every day. Neither site has proclaimed that a major shift (positive or negative) in line length has occurred, so I'll buy their conclusions.

2. A typical roller coaster (which many people fear appearing at WDW) would cost south of $30M. Even one that is dressed up by the Imagineers would have a tough time cracking $100M. So the "something tangible" that Disney could have built with $1.5B goes far beyond a roller coaster. For comparison sake, Universal built a "Revenge of the Mummy" ride in its Singapore park in 2010 and the cost was around $30M. Personally, I would rather have seen Disney build 20 rides the caliber of "Mummy" for $600M. Even rounding that up to $1B, I would still rather have seen 20 such rides than plastic wrist bands. But that's just me.

I can see what you mean (and by the way love our US 3/4 day trip), but we would still choose what went down at WDW-at least first, now they can start adding on and bumping up the ride count and FP+ count as well-and hope it's $10 billion.

 

[PlutoMars]

Why cite to facts and statistics when invective posts will further the discussion! (Thanks for digging these up. Saved me the trouble as I am certain that someone who "knows better" will challenge my "Not really. And if so, negligibly" comment.)

I am all about citing facts. If only people would stick to them.

Just the endless conjecture based on one's narrative of the thought process of the upper management has reached a comical level at this point.

 

[PlutoMars]

As to the bolded:
1. To be fair, my post was not an authoratative statement on line length. I was paraphrasing your earlier post that things now are not out of the ordinary. I adopted your premise for purposes of my post without necessarily agreeing with it. I'm not there on a day to day basis so I don't feel confident in drawing a conclusion one way or the other. But sites like TP and easywdw are there every day. Neither site has proclaimed that a major shift (positive or negative) in line length has occurred, so I'll buy their conclusions.

2. A typical roller coaster (which many people fear appearing at WDW) would cost south of $30M. Even one that is dressed up by the Imagineers would have a tough time cracking $100M. So the "something tangible" that Disney could have built with $1.5B goes far beyond a roller coaster. For comparison sake, Universal built a "Revenge of the Mummy" ride in its Singapore park in 2010 and the cost was around $30M. Personally, I would rather have seen Disney build 20 rides the caliber of "Mummy" for $600M. Even rounding that up to $1B, I would still rather have seen 20 such rides than plastic wrist bands. But that's just me.

Even if Disney were to build the attractions that people want, there is still a crowd management issue that needed to be addressed within the parks. Building new attractions is not the panacea that people make it out to be.

I would rather for Disney to try to manage their current crowds first before adding new attractions because that brings even more crowds which can create just as much customer dissatisfaction as the My Magic+ rollout has done among a segment of their guests.

You cannot reduce the whole My Magic project to a plastic wrist band as you know it is much more than that.

 

[TwinPrincessMermaids]

You cannot reduce the whole My Magic project to a plastic wrist band as you know it is much more than that.

Hey I LIKE the plastic band. My problem is what it represents!

 

[catra121]

Actual attendance numbers MK 2012 17.5 million, 1991 18 million, Epcot 2012 11 million , 1991 14.4 million, Studios 2012 10 million, 1994 10.4 million. Looks like very similar attendance to me.

Thanks for the actual attendance numbers...but when I personally site the attendance as being up I am comparing it to what I personally remember not from 1991 (when I would have been 7) but rather from 2004, 2007, 2010, etc. That is what most people are using as their personal basis of comparison (trips in the past few years...not 2 decades ago). Crowds have felt SIGNIFICANTLY bigger to me the last 4 years than they were on those previous trips.

But my comparisons are also trips taken during slow times...not times that were already very busy. Park capacity crowds during any of those trips would likely feel the same regardless of the year. September and October crowds however feel MUCH bigger now because they ARE more crowded. Those % increases aren't likely to be equal every day of the year...they are probably much higher during certain times of the year with crowds being basically even on other days of the year.

I know everything I've just said is speculation...I don't have any hard core facts to back it up...but it's the way I see things. It's why I think that what Disney has done with regards to crowd redistribution is/will be very worthwhile. And I still believe that there will continue to be advancements in the way Disney uses this technology to make people's experiences even more magical and convenient.

 

[OtherScott]

As to the bolded:
1. To be fair, my post was not an authoratative statement on line length. I was paraphrasing your earlier post that things now are not out of the ordinary. I adopted your premise for purposes of my post without necessarily agreeing with it. I'm not there on a day to day basis so I don't feel confident in drawing a conclusion one way or the other. But sites like TP and easywdw are there every day. Neither site has proclaimed that a major shift (positive or negative) in line length has occurred, so I'll buy their conclusions.

2. A typical roller coaster (which many people fear appearing at WDW) would cost south of $30M. Even one that is dressed up by the Imagineers would have a tough time cracking $100M. So the "something tangible" that Disney could have built with $1.5B goes far beyond a roller coaster. For comparison sake, Universal built a "Revenge of the Mummy" ride in its Singapore park in 2010 and the cost was around $30M. Personally, I would rather have seen Disney build 20 rides the caliber of "Mummy" for $600M. Even rounding that up to $1B, I would still rather have seen 20 such rides than plastic wrist bands. But that's just me.

To be fair, you accepted the premise for the purpose of asking, "then why spend the money?"

 

[Luckybee]

I once did 16 nights at Disney. It was about 5 nights too many, and possibly more. If you're spending 2 weeks in Orlando and only doing Disney, you are really doing yourself a disservice.

Tell me more please ! Dh and I will be in Orlando for that amount of time in Sept/Oct. Thing of it is we are not ride fanatics. By that I mean dh wont go on any of the major coasters, or anything that spins. He once did space mountain and swears he'll never so that again. We've seen the video of 7DMT and he's willing to try that. He wont do things like Everest, Space Mountain etc. He will do things like soarin, potc, its a small world, pooh, haunted mansion, splash mountain, toy story, star tours etc.
We tried Universal but it was early 90's right after it first opened. I remember trying Earthquake and that was ok for him but don't remember much else.

Would it still be worth it for us to give it another try? Would there be enough for us ?

 

[Peepster]

Dude. Already said all this (maybe on another thread). Disney has created their OWN feeding frenzy of FP demand by allowing them to be booked a month or even months in advance. No other park does that, anywhere. The only thing that comes close are booking excursions and Palo on the cruise line (and that's after you have PIF for that cruise and its only you and maybe 2000-4000 other guests.) They saw how much more people were spending when they could get excited and book out 6 months in advance, and they decided to see if they could lock people's dollars in by doing the same thing for rides. They want people to buy more days at Disney instead of going here one day and going to Universal another day, so the more FP they get, the more days at WDW they need. So they can secure more bucks in advance, and people have to buy their tix in advance in order to be able to reserve them. But because of the early reservations, they knew people would take the best ones (duh) and so now they make you choose one or the other. But it never used to be that way, and it doesn't have to be that way. This is Disney creating a ridiculous frenzy of demand way ahead of time that never used to exist.

Sorry for being late with this but wanted to comment on how well said the above is, TwinPrincessMermaids.
Have been away from the thread and came back to find a lot of angry people. Some angry with me. Is too bad. We all are different with different feelings and thoughts. That should make for good discussion, not anger.

 

[flicx]

Even if Disney were to build the attractions that people want, there is still a crowd management issue that needed to be addressed within the parks. Building new attractions is not the panacea that people make it out to be.

I would rather for Disney to try to manage their current crowds first before adding new attractions because that brings even more crowds which can create just as much customer dissatisfaction as the My Magic+ rollout has done among a segment of their guests.

Building rides is crowd management in its simplest of forms. More rides more people waiting in lines to ride equals crowd management. Again I don't understand the whole its more crowded than ever thing. The numbers tell a different story. I went during the 80's and 90's crowd management was fine then with similar numbers. What has changed so much to need all this extra management? Disney has spun this into something for the customer when in all reality it was all about them.

 

[mefordis]

This is exactly right. And with the Disney vacation savings club - well, it is so in your face now that they are out to get as much money as they can as early in advance as they can. I know it is a company there to make money but wow - such in your face greed. Measuring out the soda by teaspoons to ensure customers are charged for every drop was another stunning act of greed.

Sorry, I just can't help but notice these small things that do add up and it does interfere with the magic a little.

Dude. Already said all this (maybe on another thread). Disney has created their OWN feeding frenzy of FP demand by allowing them to be booked a month or even months in advance. No other park does that, anywhere. The only thing that comes close are booking excursions and Palo on the cruise line (and that's after you have PIF for that cruise and its only you and maybe 2000-4000 other guests.) They saw how much more people were spending when they could get excited and book out 6 months in advance, and they decided to see if they could lock people's dollars in by doing the same thing for rides. They want people to buy more days at Disney instead of going here one day and going to Universal another day, so the more FP they get, the more days at WDW they need. So they can secure more bucks in advance, and people have to buy their tix in advance in order to be able to reserve them. But because of the early reservations, they knew people would take the best ones (duh) and so now they make you choose one or the other. But it never used to be that way, and it doesn't have to be that way. This is Disney creating a ridiculous frenzy of demand way ahead of time that never used to exist.

 

[sonofanarchy]

Tell me more please ! Dh and I will be in Orlando for that amount of time in Sept/Oct. Thing of it is we are not ride fanatics. By that I mean dh wont go on any of the major coasters, or anything that spins. He once did space mountain and swears he'll never so that again. We've seen the video of 7DMT and he's willing to try that. He wont do things like Everest, Space Mountain etc. He will do things like soarin, potc, its a small world, pooh, haunted mansion, splash mountain, toy story, star tours etc.
We tried Universal but it was early 90's right after it first opened. I remember trying Earthquake and that was ok for him but don't remember much else.

Would it still be worth it for us to give it another try? Would there be enough for us ?

I think so. I have twin 7 year olds and they LOVE Universal. So does my 13 year old, but he's a coaster nut like me.

The thing about Universal is it can be a simply wonderful 3 or 4 day getaway. Three of the four onsite resorts are beautiful and comparable with Disney's Resorts. City Walk is a blast. There are several fun, quite good restaurants.

As for the parks, Universal Studios is breathtaking. It is absolutely beautiful in a fun way. Much more transporting than Hollywood Studios. The only rides I would say would be off-limits are Hollywood Rip Ride Rockit and Revenge of the Mummy. Simpsons and Despicable Me are simulators, but great fun. Then you've got Men in Black, ET, Disaster, Shrek 4-D, T2, Transformers. Soon you'll have Diagon Alley.

Islands of Adventure is more about thrill rides, but there are some rides that are an absolute blast. Popeye's Bilge Raft Barges is the greatest raft ride I've ever been on. Dudley Do Right, while lacking the atmosphere of Splash Mountain, is funny and thrilling, without being too much to handle. Jurassic Park is amazing. Harry Potter is amazing, though you won't want to do Dragon Challenge and possibly Forbidden Journey. Seuss Landing, even for adults, is wonderful. I think it's quite possibly the best themed land at any Orlando park for kids.

I say go for it.

 

[JimmyV]

Thanks for the actual attendance numbers...but when I personally site the attendance as being up I am comparing it to what I personally remember not from 1991 (when I would have been 7) but rather from 2004, 2007, 2010, etc. That is what most people are using as their personal basis of comparison (trips in the past few years...not 2 decades ago). Crowds have felt SIGNIFICANTLY bigger to me the last 4 years than they were on those previous trips.

I don't agree with that at all. I don't think the post-9/11, economic recession, TARP bailout, travel cut-back years are a fair comparison, and not what "most" people use as a benchmark. If one wants to argue that attendance is up from the nation's low water mark in terms of tourism, then fine. The arrow will point up. But in addressing whether the MDE expenditure is altering the guest experience from years past, one cannot escape using as a more fair comparison years in which attendance was similar to what it is today.

To be fair, you accepted the premise for the purpose of asking, "then why spend the money?"

Yes. I don't run from that. But what cannot be lost in all of this is that the "why spend the money?" question is rhetorical. Disney may see benefits that are invisible to us. Indeed, that is by far the most likely outcome. That is why the money was spent. What is funny is how people are imagining tremendous differences at the guest level when indeed very few such changes are occurring (or at least, haven't yet). The current Magic Band thread shows that. People are all "this is the greatest thing since sliced bread" about the plastic wrist bands when in fact the wrist band does nothing more for the guest than that plastic rectangle in their pocket did before. The plastic wrist band helps Disney. It didn't alter the guest experience one iota. (Unless one wants to count not having to dip into one's pocket 7 times a day to gain park entry, get FPs and pay for a meal. But if dipping into one's pocket 7 times a day was such a hardship, then we have become worse than the people in "Wall-E" who float around all day in lounge chairs and cannot move their limbs). FP pre-booking is another example. Disney could have made pre-booking available 7 days in advance. That would have eliminated much of the "I hate to pre-plan" angst. But it chose 60 days. Guess who benefits from the 60 day window. The guest? Nope. Disney? Yup. So I "get" why they spent the money. But I am not delusional about thinking that the answer is "me". And this brings us full circle back to the OP. The OP sees changes all around him and can't figure out how his family is benefiting from any of this. That is not a universal (no pun intended) view, and many disagree. But it is not an irrational view either.

 

[PlutoMars]

Building rides is crowd management in its simplest of forms. More rides more people waiting in lines to ride equals crowd management. Again I don't understand the whole its more crowded than ever thing. The numbers tell a different story. I went during the 80's and 90's crowd management was fine then with similar numbers. What has changed so much to need all this extra management? Disney has spun this into something for the customer when in all reality it was all about them.

Look at what adding the "attraction" of Anna & Elsa has done to the crowds. Even when it was not an FP+ attraction in EP, it still created crowd problems. We are not seeing other ride times shortened just because of A&E. Adding new attractions alone is not the total solution that people want to pretend it is

But more rides attract more people. The attendance wouldnt remain static if new attractions were added. New attractions would add more crowds.

In order for them to provide something for the customer, they have to manage their infrastructure as well. You cant just keep building new attractions without addressing logistical issues as well. I know the business side of this and I recognize Disney moving to this "plastic band" in order to try and get people to spend more money and time within their parks.

I like the idea of the My Magic+ initiative but think the rollout and implementation of it has been a mess. There was never an easy way for them to rollout such a massive project throughout WDW but they did create unnecessary ill will among their customers because of the way that it was implemented. But, time will tell if the project is a success in meeting their goals.

 

[JoeA]

Building rides is crowd management in its simplest of forms. More rides more people waiting in lines to ride equals crowd management. Again I don't understand the whole its more crowded than ever thing. The numbers tell a different story. I went during the 80's and 90's crowd management was fine then with similar numbers. What has changed so much to need all this extra management? Disney has spun this into something for the customer when in all reality it was all about them.

Are you really saying that more rides = more lines = crowd management?

I believe attendance was down sharply in the 90's.

And you may be onto something...it's all about them! First and foremost, Disney isn't a family company. They focus on one thing: Shareholder value. Just like any publically traded company in the world. They can make you the happiest person on earth but if a shareholder isn't impressed then...meh! How can they get more money out of more wallets in a time period. More rides would get more of yours, and mine quite honestly - but for every one of us there are 100's more saving their money, planning their trips, and thinking that they can pay for something with a waive of their wrist the cutest thing since Shirley Temple.

 

[PlutoMars]

Yes. I don't run from that. But what cannot be lost in all of this is that the "why spend the money?" question is rhetorical. Disney may see benefits that are invisible to us. Indeed, that is by far the most likely outcome. That is why the money was spent. What is funny is how people are imagining tremendous differences at the guest level when indeed very few such changes are occurring (or at least, haven't yet). The current Magic Band thread shows that. People are all "this is the greatest thing since sliced bread" about the plastic wrist bands when in fact the wrist band does nothing more for the guest than that plastic rectangle in their pocket did before. The plastic wrist band helps Disney. It didn't alter the guest experience one iota. (Unless one wants to count not having to dip into one's pocket 7 times a day to gain park entry, get FPs and pay for a meal. But if dipping into one's pocket 7 times a day was such a hardship, then we have become worse than the people in "Wall-E" who float around all day in lounge chairs and cannot move their limbs). FP pre-booking is another example. Disney could have made pre-booking available 7 days in advance. That would have eliminated much of the "I hate to pre-plan" angst. But it chose 60 days. Guess who benefits from the 60 day window. The guest? Nope. Disney? Yup. So I "get" why they spent the money. But I am not delusional about thinking that the answer is "me".

Time and again in these discussions, it is stressed on each side of the table, how different people's touring styles are. And based on one's touring style, it affects how they view the changes with MM+. To equate those that see FP+ and MM+ as a benefit and improvement to their overall experience with people in Wall-E is quite insulting.

Yes, Disney benefits from the changes and in turn, a certain percentage of guests do as well. And some people love to plan and the reserving rides 60 days in advance is preferable and less stressful to them then having to collect paper FPs, the day they enter the parks. Therefore, we have a change that benefits both Disney and a portion of the guests.

On the flip side, I do recognize why people see this as a negative change because it is does negatively impact them and their touring styles.