Just back and not happy

[JimmyV]

Look at what adding the "attraction" of Anna & Elsa has done to the crowds. Even when it was not an FP+ attraction in EP, it still created crowd problems. We are not seeing other ride times shortened just because of A&E. Adding new attractions alone is not the total solution that people want to pretend it is

But more rides attract more people. The attendance wouldnt remain static if new attractions were added. New attractions would add more crowds.

I get your point, but that is a bad example. A&E is a zero sum game in terms of attendance. For every 5 year old who rushes to see the Girls, that is one less 5 year old in line for Dumbo. Go back 10 years and Dumbo was the run to ride for the pre-school set at RD. Today? They doubled the ride capacity, added A&E, and Dumbo is practically a walk-on at all hours of the day.

Something big....and I mean BIG, will increase overall attendance (long term). Something like the 7DMT will show a near-term spike as Florida locals come to the park to try out the new toy and join the masses that already planned to come. So for three months or so, you might see an increase. But adding the Mine Train will not cause an overall climg in attendance. Maybe New Fantasyland in general can be seen as having that effect. Maybe Avatarland will. Maybe. But not a ride. Not even two or three rides. It takes an entirely new "experience" to cause a jump in attendance. Go back to the 1991 numbers that were posted a couple of pages earlier. Look what has happened to WDW since 1991, and yet......same numbers. At some point, the park hits a critical mass. The square acreage can only hold so many people.

 

[Luckybee]

Sorry I do not agree with the grounds at any of those resorts being better they are far smaller compared to the D Deluxe... Where are is the Tiki torch lighting ceremony, The boat rentals, The bike rentals and paths, The spa, The Beach, The fire Pits, the Marshmallow roasts, The movie under the stars, The golf Courses... go into the GF and lets not forget it has the only true 5 star eatery in Florida and Grand one.. Pool activities they have a pool party everyday with music, games and Giveaways, Pools ahhh Stormalong bay
What you mention are not Amenities they are services and Disney will do all of that for a fee CR certainly has private Cabana rentals... No one has ever said no to me at Disney??? in fact last time I Stayed at AK one of the greeters took my son by the hand and walked us to the check in desk if you would like to pony up Disney will provide any service you would like. There are people who go on vacation and are willing to pay for location and service and the better rooms Disney offers at the Deluxe resorts... as you can see from the list above you will have different types of people who will stay at Disney Deluxe and there are enough people in the world who will pay for Grand one which does include a Butler and eat at V & A whit out a second thought.....
Lets not forget the resort fees, parking fees and mandatory tips you need to pay at a lot of other resorts with a low starting price... Atlantis for example you can easily pay as much in all the fees as the room costs... but of course Atlantis did it different as you can get the same room in a different location with a much higher level of service for a fee... and then of course the rooms and service for those willing to Pony up the big $.
I do not understand why you talk of all these things when you are staying at the Swan and Dolphin for a location but they pal in comparison To a Disney resort in respect to grounds, Lobby, and Amenities.. Services sorry do not see it there.. not to mention they are true convention resorts... lets not forget the on top of the room rate they have a 23 a day resort fee and 17 parking fee.
The rest of the resorts you mention are timeshares and the first thing you get asked when you walk in is if you would like to buy...
I enjoy my stays at Disney Deluxe resorts for what they are.. stayed in them before I owned DVC and will if I sell it.. They have never done me wrong.. that is not to say they are perfect as they are by far not but they have always settled any short comings faster than 99% of any other brand I have stayed at. Now if you would like to have a nicer room at Disney on the cheap by or rent DVC for a 1 or two bedroom.. I can tell you The Master bath at the newer DVC resorts is bigger than a studio at the values and amazing... You can also pay for nicer than those in the suites at any Disney Deluxe....
I had the pleasure of speaking with for hours a man form Canada whose company paid for him and his family for a presidential suite at AKL and I had the opportunity to see the inside... He was very impressed with it as was I... He had no complaints and a lot of Praise.. I would gather but am not certain he stays at a lot of very high Hotels in suites Again if you are willing to pony up Disney will provide anything if you are price comparing then yes you can do better in Orlando minus location.... however there has always been three rules in real estate... Location Location Location and Disney has it and they DO charge for it as would any business. I like my location and I am willing to pay for it some are not. Yes my bed in a studio may not be as comfortable as in other resorts but I can tell you in a one or two bedroom it is... and I enjoy a bathroom that simply amazing.

I think it is great that you're willing to pay so much for location on D property. For the most part I agree with what you've said . I'm simply not willing to imho pay so much for so little because to me location isn't worth it. I'd rather have the "finer things" and drive for 15 or 20 minutes. But don't kid yourself that the grounds are not as good or better elsewhere. At the Ritz which is part of the Grande Lakes properties they DO have jogging trails, bike paths, fishing, fish feeding, kayaking ,outdoor evening bbq's, their own golf course, a spa that would compete with any , fitness centers ,etc. etc. And "far smaller" ummmm....have you looked at the size of Grande Lakes on google earth cause I know when you say that you haven't been. Although I have no idea of the actual acreage of the entire property the recreation acreage is 500 acres and I can tell you that the Grande Lakes complex is bigger than any Disney resort , and as a guest you have access to all the property. (the only time that may not be the case is at certain busy times when they will restrict access to the pools for the property you're staying at).

With regard to our staying at the S/D for our first few nights. When fp+ came out we decided to add a few nights to our already booked trip which was at that time already 3 weeks (we were doing a week in Palm Beach first which we're not doing now because of business commitments.). We wanted to have the 60 days booking window so we had to have on property time and the 4 seasons is not considered on property for that purpose After I looked at the room and property photos for the Disney Deluxes and having seen the GF from dinners and wandering prior (and we've stayed at AKL prior) I was shocked at the prices they wanted. Then I realized we could use our *wood points for S/D so we aren't spending $ for the room(we are paying to upgrade it, parking and resort fee).... So we'll have our luxury after we move off property. Though I have to say I prefer the pools/grds/and room photos of the S/D to many of the D properties we looked at. But no Im not expecting the service there....but again in calling there to set up certain things I find them far more accommodating over the phone than any cm's I've dealt with so who knows . Funny thing is if the 4S would have had the "on property" status I would have gladly paid for that because there you will be I expect getting a truly deluxe property (at I might add 30% -50% less) than the GF when I compared the 2.
For me and this is just my opinion I am more than willing to pay big bucks if I perceive the value from it. The only value I see the the D deluxes is location and the "on property status for FP" . Im not willing to pony up for that. Now if the rooms at the gf were larger, more luxurious, and I read reviews that complimented the service as being top notch , if you weren't treated as just "another guest" Im in...but really from what I experienced at AKL, and keep in mind we were concierge level, I felt we were in a large convention hotel where there was no personal service at all. It wasn't bad...it just didn't have the level of luxury I prefer and I don't think its meant to.

 

[flicx]

Are you really saying that more rides = more lines = crowd management?

I believe attendance was down sharply in the 90's.

And you may be onto something...it's all about them! First and foremost, Disney isn't a family company. They focus on one thing: Shareholder value. Just like any publically traded company in the world. They can make you the happiest person on earth but if a shareholder isn't impressed then...meh! How can they get more money out of more wallets in a time period. More rides would get more of yours, and mine quite honestly - but for every one of us there are 100's more saving their money, planning their trips, and thinking that they can pay for something with a waive of their wrist the cutest thing since Shirley Temple.

Actually the 90's held some of the highest attendance numbers at the parks. The formula of build more worked quite well for the from inception. One can never lose sight of what the customer wants in business. Too much focus on the bottom line can hurt a business too!

 

[JimmyV]

To equate those that see FP+ and MM+ as a benefit and improvement to their overall experience with people in Wall-E is quite insulting.

I was only equating the functionality and use of MBs with KTTK cards. That has nothing to do with "touring styles". The single most common "praise" of MBs is that "I don't have to fumble around for my KTTK card anymore." Uh. OK. As if that was some sort of painful hardship.

And some people love to plan and the reserving rides 60 days in advance is preferable and less stressful to them then having to collect paper FPs, the day they enter the parks. Therefore, we have a change that benefits both Disney and a portion of the guests.

You are missing the point there. Yes, some people like to plan in advance. But the 60 day window did not arise organically or from guest demand or outcry. It was artificially created by WDW. The number could have been 7. Or 10. Or 20. Or 30. The point is, the pre-planners would have embraced and loved any of those options. I'm not criticizing the love of pre-planning. That aspect of MDE is definitely a change that helps the guests. But the same "help" would have resulted from any number of advanced days. The number 60 was chosen because it best helps Disney. And the OP's entire point is that 60 is too long (for him). All he is saying is that perhaps some other number might have worked better for some guests. Indeed, if you started a poll and asked the crowd here what they think the optimal number of advanced days should be and what would work best for them, I'd be shocked it the final answer turned out to be 60.

 

[PlutoMars]

I get your point, but that is a bad example. A&E is a zero sum game in terms of attendance. For every 5 year old who rushes to see the Girls, that is one less 5 year old in line for Dumbo. Go back 10 years and Dumbo was the run to ride for the pre-school set at RD. Today? They doubled the ride capacity, added A&E, and Dumbo is practically a walk-on at all hours of the day.

Of course you think it is a bad example. And I think it is a bad example for you to say that A&E has decreased lines at Dumbo in the recent past. I think it was more of the fact that they doubled the capacity.

Something big....and I mean BIG, will increase overall attendance (long term). Something like the 7DMT will show a near-term spike as Florida locals come to the park to try out the new toy and join the masses that already planned to come. So for three months or so, you might see an increase. But adding the Mine Train will not cause an overall climg in attendance. Maybe New Fantasyland in general can be seen as having that effect. Maybe Avatarland will. Maybe. But not a ride. Not even two or three rides. It takes an entirely new "experience" to cause a jump in attendance. Go back to the 1991 numbers that were posted a couple of pages earlier. Look what has happened to WDW since 1991, and yet......same numbers. At some point, the park hits a critical mass. The square acreage can only hold so many people.

But isnt what people are advocating? Some BIG attractions be built in lieu of the 158 billion dollars (the cost keeps rising every time it is mentioned) spent on MM+. If they would have plopped down the industry killer groups of attractions people are wanting in NFL in place of the Mine Train, you are absolutely correct, the square acreage can only hold so many people and crowds would increase all through the park and increase wait times not decrease them because of the jump in attendance initially. They have to have a method of crowd control in place and infrastructure to handle it.

In that sense, the MM+ project is more than just a "plastic band" but an attempt at crowd control. again, time will tell if it will pay dividends in the long run.

 

[Luckybee]

I think so. I have twin 7 year olds and they LOVE Universal. So does my 13 year old, but he's a coaster nut like me.

The thing about Universal is it can be a simply wonderful 3 or 4 day getaway. Three of the four onsite resorts are beautiful and comparable with Disney's Resorts. City Walk is a blast. There are several fun, quite good restaurants.

As for the parks, Universal Studios is breathtaking. It is absolutely beautiful in a fun way. Much more transporting than Hollywood Studios. The only rides I would say would be off-limits are Hollywood Rip Ride Rockit and Revenge of the Mummy. Simpsons and Despicable Me are simulators, but great fun. Then you've got Men in Black, ET, Disaster, Shrek 4-D, T2, Transformers. Soon you'll have Diagon Alley.

Islands of Adventure is more about thrill rides, but there are some rides that are an absolute blast. Popeye's Bilge Raft Barges is the greatest raft ride I've ever been on. Dudley Do Right, while lacking the atmosphere of Splash Mountain, is funny and thrilling, without being too much to handle. Jurassic Park is amazing. Harry Potter is amazing, though you won't want to do Dragon Challenge and possibly Forbidden Journey. Seuss Landing, even for adults, is wonderful. I think it's quite possibly the best themed land at any Orlando park for kids.

I say go for it.

Thanks so much for this. I have been seriously considering whether we should go back and give Universal another try but then wondered if it would be a waste if we didn't get on anything. Now you've given me food for thought We don't mind paying the extra for the express pass....is it good for all the rides ? Or just the bigger coasters etc? LOL...I guess I could look that up Thanks again !

 

[flicx]

Look at what adding the "attraction" of Anna & Elsa has done to the crowds. Even when it was not an FP+ attraction in EP, it still created crowd problems. We are not seeing other ride times shortened just because of A&E. Adding new attractions alone is not the total solution that people want to pretend it is

But more rides attract more people. The attendance wouldnt remain static if new attractions were added. New attractions would add more crowds.

In order for them to provide something for the customer, they have to manage their infrastructure as well. You cant just keep building new attractions without addressing logistical issues as well. I know the business side of this and I recognize Disney moving to this "plastic band" in order to try and get people to spend more money and time within their parks.

I like the idea of the My Magic+ initiative but think the rollout and implementation of it has been a mess. There was never an easy way for them to rollout such a massive project throughout WDW but they did create unnecessary ill will among their customers because of the way that it was implemented. But, time will tell if the project is a success in meeting their goals.

Again the crowd levels now at Disney a similar to what was there in the past. New attractions add capacity. Take Epcot for example if they simply open the old body wars attraction with something else you can now fit x number of extra people into the park. The same thing would hold true if you opened numerous other attractions. I understand the whole band thing. I just feel Disney is over aggressively trying to squeeze every red cent from the customer possible. So much so customer experience is not very important anymore. That is what has turned so many people off.

 

[JimmyV]

Of course you think it is a bad example. And I think it is a bad example for you to say that A&E has decreased lines at Dumbo in the recent past. I think it was more of the fact that they doubled the capacity.

You just undermined your entire argument. By your accounting, raising the capacity of the ride (which is the equivalent of building a new ride), should have increased attendance commensurate with the new ride's capacity such that the line at the first ride shouldn't have shortened. But it did shorten. Proving one of two things, or both:

1. Raising ride capacity shortens lines; or
2. People are riding other rides (or seeing characters) now and not going to Dumbo quite as often.

It is silly to think that 5 hour lines for A&E are not stealing away guests from other areas of the park. But if you don't see that or don't agree with that, then we are on different ships and cannot carry on.

 

[PlutoMars]

I was only equating the functionality and use of MBs with KTTK cards. That has nothing to do with "touring styles". The single most common "praise" of MBs is that "I don't have to fumble around for my KTTK card anymore." Uh. OK. As if that was some sort of painful hardship.

Of course, it has to do with touring styles. As certain people just find it more convenient to wear something of their wrist instead of worrying about misplacing a card. And it becomes more painful if people walked out of their hotel rooms thinking they had the KTTW card in their purse, pocket, wallet, backpack, etc and then arrived at the park to not be able to find it. The band is an easier reminder and visual check of your party. And on EMH times, it becomes a pain to have to dig out a card to show a CM each time one ride something.

You are missing the point there. Yes, some people like to plan in advance. But the 60 day window did not arise organically or from guest demand or outcry. It was artificially created by WDW. The number could have been 7. Or 10. Or 20. Or 30. The point is, the pre-planners would have embraced and loved any of those options. I'm not criticizing the love of pre-planning. That aspect of MDE is definitely a change that helps the guests. But the same "help" would have resulted from any number of advanced days. The number 60 was chosen because it best helps Disney. And the OP's entire point is that 60 is too long (for him). All he is saying is that perhaps some other number might have worked better for some guests. Indeed, if you started a poll and asked the crowd here what they think the optimal number of advanced days should be and what would work best for them, I'd be shocked it the final answer turned out to be 60.

I am not missing the point at all. Yes, Disney set a timeframe that they feel benefits them. But where ever they set the date for preplanning, the point remains that it was a win for both Disney and a certain % of guests. Wherever Disney set the mark, there would still be people complaining that they dont like to preplan. Even at 7 days, some guests would still bemoan the fact because they couldnt operate as they did in the past. For those, there is no optimal number of advanced days because they do not like the concept of it at all.

 

[PlutoMars]

You just undermined your entire argument. By your accounting, raising the capacity of the ride (which is the equivalent of building a new ride), should have increased attendance commensurate with the new ride's capacity such that the line at the first ride shouldn't have shortened. But it did shorten. Proving one of two things, or both:

1. Raising ride capacity shortens lines; or
2. People are riding other rides (or seeing characters) now and not going to Dumbo quite as often.

Raising the capacity of a ride is not the same building a totally new attraction. Even though a new Dumbo was built, it was in order to increase capacity.

For your assertion to be valid, you would have to show where Dumbo ride wait times have lessened since A&E have arrived at MK.

It is silly to think that 5 hour lines for A&E are not stealing away guests from other areas of the park. But if you don't see that or don't agree with that, then we are on different ships and cannot carry on.

And it is silly to think that people are not coming to MK JUST to see A&E and they care less whether they ride Dumbo or not. And once they get to see A&E, they add to the crowds in other areas of the park, not subtract.

 

[Cyrano]

Horse Flogging A Dead
Rearrange words at your leisure.