JonBenet Ramsey - a question for those who follow this story

[cabanafrau]

I'm no huge Dr. Phil devotee, but unless he blatantly lied on his show (3 separate episodes shown over the past week), the DNA evidence taken from JonBenet was definitively shown NOT to be Patsy Ramsey or John Ramsey or anyone related to John (ie. Burke). In addition to the fact that the Boulder PD publically exonerated them years ago, why has none of this shifted the opinions of those who still insist they must have done it? If this situation belonged to any of us IRL, wouldn't we rely on the forensics?

But if so many people "feel they must have done it" isn't that enough?

 

[msjprincess]

If the theory was that Burke hit her in the head and killed her and the parents tried to cover it up by staging it as an accident I might believe it was plausible.

But the theory that he killed her and the parents decided to sexually abuse her and tie a ligature around her neck to cover it up. Sorry, not believing it.

 

[mi*vida*loca]

I watched some of the Dr. Phil episode yesterday. Yes Burke is socially awkward but I don't think he did it. I think he would've slipped up by now, if he did do something to her. It broke my heart when he said he thinks of his sister whenever he gets on an elevator because when they were kids they would race to elevators to press the buttons first.

An investigator also stated that this case could've easily been solved (or the parents easily exonerated) had the police not jacked up the case from the beginning. Who lets people in the house to contaminate the scene??

 

[mi*vida*loca]

If the theory was that Burke hit her in the head and killed her and the parents tried to cover it up by staging it as an accident I might believe it was plausible.

But the theory that he killed her and the parents decided to sexually abuse her and tie a ligature around her neck to cover it up. Sorry, not believing it.

Exactly! I always thought that was the scenario until I watched the Dateline episode and found out the truth about her body. How she was tortured and sexually abused. No way would they have done that to cover it up.

 

[cabanafrau]

I watched some of the Dr. Phil episode yesterday. Yes Burke is socially awkward but I don't think he did it. I think he would've slipped up by now, if he did do something to her. It broke my heart when he said he thinks of his sister whenever he gets on an elevator because when they were kids they would race to elevators to press the buttons first.

An investigator also stated that this case could've easily been solved (or the parents easily exonerated) had the police not jacked up the case from the beginning. Who lets people in the house to contaminate the scene??

IMO that's exactly why the police NEED to blame the parents, to account for botching the investigation from the first.

Exactly! I always thought that was the scenario until I watched the Dateline episode and found out the truth about her body. How she was tortured and sexually abused. No way would they have done that to cover it up.

Yep, the manner of the speculated "cover up" crosses some significant psychological boundaries.

 

[kidshop]

Does anyone here think an intruder came in that basement window? There is no debris inside the house. That doesn't rule out someone came in another way, of course but the window is not the entry point IMO. My dh said last night that maybe Burke doesn't know he killed her. I scoffed, but why is that crazier than anything else? He seemed quite detached in the interviews. Detached and getting on with his life just a few days after his sister was killed in their house. Definitely seemed to have a lack of any feelings there. (worry, fear, anger, sadness etc) How does the adult Burke come off, does he seem sincere and believable? I don"t want to have to watch Dr Phil!

 

[msjprincess]

Does anyone here think an intruder came in that basement window? There is no debris inside the house. That doesn't rule out someone came in another way, of course but the window is not the entry point IMO. My dh said last night that maybe Burke doesn't know he killed her. I scoffed, but why is that crazier than anything else? He seemed quite detached in the interviews. Detached and getting on with his life just a few days after his sister was killed in their house. Definitely seemed to have a lack of any feelings there. (worry, fear, anger, sadness etc) How does the adult Burke come off, does he seem sincere and believable? I don"t want to have to watch Dr Phil!

Yes I do. Personally I haven't seen anything that made me think it was impossible.

 

[kidshop]

I'm no huge Dr. Phil devotee, but unless he blatantly lied on his show (3 separate episodes shown over the past week), the DNA evidence taken from JonBenet was definitively shown NOT to be Patsy Ramsey or John Ramsey or anyone related to John (ie. Burke). In addition to the fact that the Boulder PD publically exonerated them years ago, why has none of this shifted the opinions of those who still insist they must have done it? If this situation belonged to any of us IRL, wouldn't we rely on the forensics?

The grand jury voted to indict. The DA decided not to prosecute anyway. Seems unusual to me, maybe it is standard in murder cases?

There was dna on newly opened underwear that no one touched. It is called transfer dna, and now such a small amount is needed, just a cell I think they said. I think a few cells could transfer to 2 different clothing items, especially the way JonBenet was handled after being found. I think the underwear on JonBenet was new out of the package, as well as being to big for her.

 

[kidshop]

Yes I do. Personally I haven't seen anything that made me think it was impossible.

How come no debris inside the house..a leaf, anything on the sill or the floor?

 

[msjprincess]

How come no debris inside the house..a leaf, anything on the sill or the floor?

Doesn't seem too difficult to me to come in through a window and not knock in a leaf. There was a footprint from an unknown boot.

 

[lorimay]

Does anyone here think an intruder came in that basement window? There is no debris inside the house. That doesn't rule out someone came in another way, of course but the window is not the entry point IMO. My dh said last night that maybe Burke doesn't know he killed her. I scoffed, but why is that crazier than anything else? He seemed quite detached in the interviews. Detached and getting on with his life just a few days after his sister was killed in their house. Definitely seemed to have a lack of any feelings there. (worry, fear, anger, sadness etc) How does the adult Burke come off, does he seem sincere and believable? I don"t want to have to watch Dr Phil!

I am not a Dr. Phil fan myself, but I watched the shows and he honestly didn't make me nuts, you should watch it.
Burke to me acts like a teenager, he's 29 yrs. old and sounded like a 16 year old. It was bizarre to me. Dr. Phil says he's a loner and has social issues from being raised with his parents shielding him from the press. He graduated college and has a girlfriend.
Sincere and believable??? I can't say yes or no and I can't put my finger on it, he was just strange.
When Dr. Phil asks him "point blank" about if he did it, he didn't make direct eye contact, his eyes just kinda darted around. Like I say, strange.

 

[RitaE]

No, I've never really seen the basement window as a particular candidate for an entrance or exit point. The window was broken months before by John Ramsey and never repaired, which is just another puzzling factor of life in that household. I mean, a guy who broke a window, a stay at home wife/mother, a housekeeper, a gardner/handyman, and more than enough money to replace a thousand windows and nobody picks up a phone to call a glass repair company. In Boulder. During the winter.

These people, they are just different. The list of how can you explain this is endless and trying to determine which weirdness is somehow relevant to the murder and which isn't is one of the biggest obstacles to the case in my opinion.

 

[msjprincess]

According to Lou Smit there was debris on the floor beneath the window http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0105/28/lkl.00.html

SMIT: That's the window. Now, again, that picture that you see is the first photograph taken of that window after the crime scene technicians got back into the house. Now, later on, I believe that it was noted that this window may have been opened even by John Ramsey and Fleet White. But what that window did show us, when we first seen it, was that entry could have been made there. There was a scuff mark down the wall. There was leaves and debris on the floor, directly below that open window.

And when we looked at photographs of the window well that leads into that window, we've also seen evidence of recent disturbance. There is also foliage under the grate that covers this window well, which would indicate that someone may have opened and shut the grate. There is also disturbance on the windowsill of the middle window only, not the other two windows.

 

[NHdisneylover]

I figure that is was Christmas----the lowest on the totem pole were working that night, and probably made the fasle assumption early on that it was a kidnapping as it presented itself and made a lot of mistakes becuase of that. It happens---not a great hting but excusable. What isn't excusable is making things much worse, and tormenting a family to cover yourself when suddenly it turns out those initial assumptions and way of handling things were incorrect.

 

[Tuffcookie]

I have to say, I have not followed this case too closely but from what I observed from Dr. Phil's interviews with Burke, Burke seems to have a little autism going on. Maybe Asperger's? That could explain a lot about how detached he seems from all of it. People with Asperger's have trouble making eye contact when talking to another person.

TC

 

[Hikergirl]

Does anyone here think an intruder came in that basement window? There is no debris inside the house. That doesn't rule out someone came in another way, of course but the window is not the entry point IMO. My dh said last night that maybe Burke doesn't know he killed her. I scoffed, but why is that crazier than anything else? He seemed quite detached in the interviews. Detached and getting on with his life just a few days after his sister was killed in their house. Definitely seemed to have a lack of any feelings there. (worry, fear, anger, sadness etc) How does the adult Burke come off, does he seem sincere and believable? I don"t want to have to watch Dr Phil!

I dont know if an intruder came in through that window, maybe he went out of that window. They found a boot print in the basement and ASAIK they have no idea who it belonged too.
I think an intruder did it, to me it makes the most sense based on the evidence or lack of evidence.

I dont know much about Burke, and could never say how he should have acted after his sisters murder. I'm not sure there is a normal way to act after something like that. His family has been through hell for years, he spent his childhood, teenhood and adulthood so far veing a suspect. Again, not sure what is a normal way to be under those circumstances.
I also dont know how he couldnt know he killed her if he had done something.

The grand jury voted to indict. The DA decided not to prosecute anyway. Seems unusual to me, maybe it is standard in murder cases?

There was dna on newly opened underwear that no one touched. It is called transfer dna, and now such a small amount is needed, just a cell I think they said. I think a few cells could transfer to 2 different clothing items, especially the way JonBenet was handled after being found. I think the underwear on JonBenet was new out of the package, as well as being to big for her.

I think the DA knew there wasnt conclusive evidence proving the parents did it, and that there was plenty of evidence showing that someone else could have.
The DNA bothers me because it was found in 2 places. Sure it could be from someone at the manufacturing plant, but coupled with other evidence pointing to an intruder? Also, how much of the packaging process of mass produced underwear is done by hand? Just things i think about, not sure what really makes sense.

 

[LisaR]

And the fight started over pineapple yet they left it sitting there on the table?

They supposedly did all this other stuff to cover up the crime but left the incriminating pineapple sitting out.

And I don't get their conclusion that the DNA came from manufacturing or packaging. The same DNA was found on her underwear and the outside of her leggings. The same person made both of those clothing items?

Exactly!

How will we explain this bowl of pineapple?

No, clue. Maybe we should put it down the garbage disposal and put the bowl in the dishwasher to remove all evidence.

No! Even better, let it sit there and we can pretend like we don't know where it came from.

Excellent idea! Oh, and hey, what about the flashlight that Burke used to bash her over the head. Should we hide it in the house? Take it out in the woods and try to bury it?

No, I've got a brilliant idea. Leave it right there on the countertop!

 

[msjprincess]

Exactly!

How will we explain this bowl of pineapple?

No, clue. Maybe we should put it down the garbage disposal and put the bowl in the dishwasher to remove all evidence.

No! Even better, let it sit there and we can pretend like we don't know where it came from.

Excellent idea! Oh, and hey, what about the flashlight that Burke used to bash her over the head. Should we hide it in the house? Take it out in the woods and try to bury it?

No, I've got a brilliant idea. Leave it right there on the countertop!

Oh geez, I forgot the flashlight was right there one the countertop. And while we're at it, Patsy is wearing the same clothes that she supposedly wore while doing those horrible things to her daughter. Because the police never ask for clothing to check for evidence.

Yep, it sounds like they cracked the case.

 

[wilkeliza]

I have to imagine that if Burke did do it we would have heard all about the problems he had before and after. People don't just brutally murder someone and then never do it again. He has been somewhat successful in that he graduated college, has had relationships (may even currently have a girlfriend), and is working for an IT company now. There is no sudden rise in violent crimes where he has moved to and no one close to him has ever come out and said something doesn't sit right or that he is into anything violent. It has been 20 years and he was 9. I imagine if he had done it at some point in the last 20 years there would have been something besides "shifty eyes" that could be used against him.

Same for the parents. With all the scrutiny they have been under you would think in 20 years there would be something, anything that would have shown they did it. The police even actively were searching for evidence to pin this on the family. If it was them and it was there then we would have heard about it by now.


I think that perhaps it was someone who had a key. That was no force entry was needed. I'm sure they had a gardener, a maid, a baby sitter, and other household staff with copies of keys. It would not be impossible that an acquaintance of one of those people committed the crime and used a copy of the key to do it. It would be interesting if the other little girl who was abused in the area was also from a wealthier family and if there was any connection through the staff that might have shown it was the same person.


Earlier people were talking about the alarm system. My in laws have a system on there house and I can't tell you how many people have the code. On top of that at lot of us end up assuming someone else armed the system so it just goes undone all night. Probably not the smartest thing that the last one to bed doesn't double check it but it is what it is. Just showing that it isn't uncommon for people not to arm the alarm system they have.

 

[cabanafrau]

The grand jury voted to indict. The DA decided not to prosecute anyway. Seems unusual to me, maybe it is standard in murder cases?

There was dna on newly opened underwear that no one touched. It is called transfer dna, and now such a small amount is needed, just a cell I think they said. I think a few cells could transfer to 2 different clothing items, especially the way JonBenet was handled after being found. I think the underwear on JonBenet was new out of the package, as well as being to big for her.

You think she was "handled" after being found in ways where DNA was likely to have been transferred to her underwear? Let's logically consider that a moment. That DNA isn't from a family member. Law enforcement and the medical examiner don't touch her or her clothing without gloves, neither do the lab techs.

ETA, as far as the grand jury and the prosecutor subsequently not going forward, you can try someone legally one time for a crime and then double jeopardy attaches. Obviously the prosecutor did not feel they could meet the burden of proof. Also, a grand jury indicting is not the same thing as they thought someone was guilty. The grand jury proceedings are not the same as an actual trial where an accused is afforded due process.