Jon & Kate Confusion

[sha_lyn]

I am not here to fight, but they did decide to have that many. She was able to have children, but wanted multiplies. I read the article she admitted to it. God blessing, yes I do believe thanks to technology. (I know about the 7th one)

Care to offer any proof?

I won't hold my breath, considering every bit of info out htere says that they did have fertility problems.

She did this with a man (Jon) who was unemployed, chronically so, and then expected the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania to pay for them

He was fired after she became pregnant because his employer claimed to not be able to afford their insurance. That is why Kate qualified for Medicaid.
If he were chronically unemployed, how did they afford the extremely expensive infertility treatments?

 

[emer95]

After doing a brief bit of searching, I found that Kate had a Dx of PCOS- a very common infertility problem. That wasn't my personal Dx, but I know several women who have it and are struggling to concieve with the help of Reproductive Endocrinologists. It's highly doubtful that anyone who undergoes infertility treatments "are able to have children, but want multiples." In fact, that's a load of crap. RE's won't do treatments to women who have not been diagnosed.

 

[EMom]

He was fired after she became pregnant because his employer claimed to not be able to afford their insurance. That is why Kate qualified for Medicaid.
If he were chronically unemployed, how did they afford the extremely expensive infertility treatments?

I have no idea when or why he was fired, so I'll leave that alone. As for ths cost of the infertility treatments, I can address that. Almost every time you hear about someone having quads and higher, you can bet the farm they did IUI and not IVF. Why?

With IVF, you control the number of embryos that are put back in. If you want no more than twins, you only put in two embryos. Yes, there is the rare case where an embryo splits, but that's they exception. With IUI, there is much less control. You count the number of developing (later, maturing) follicles and monitor them to judge how many eggs the woman will produce. There is little CONTROL of how many she makes. Give two women the same amount of meds and one might produce 2 follicles, while another produces 14. And every one of those can produce a baby. Of course, those could split and become twins too. This is how the higher order multiples/HOM come about. A woman on an IUI cycle produces 9 follicles, is inseminated, and becomes pregnant with septuplets. This would not have happened on an IVF cycle where 2 embryos were put back in....It couldn't have. Given the circumstances and her 6 littles ones at once, Kate must have had IUI.

So why don't people just do IVF instead of IUI and avoid the risk of HOM? Mainly because IUI costs a fraction of what IVF does. It is also much less invasive. IVF can easily cost $10,000 or more per cycle than IUI. Some health insurance companies will actually cover part of the meds, so that can reduce the cost. Don't ask me why, but even if you have no infertility drug coverage, prescription meds seems to slip by for IUI cycles more often than IVF cycles. So that's even more of a savings.

A couple can eadily do 5, 6 or 7 IUI cycles for one IVF cycle, financially speaking. As time goes on, some couples take more risks as they get more desperate. Also, some doctors aren't as picky as others about just how infertile you have to be to merit aggressive treatment and drastic measures.

Concerning the money issue, even without insurance coverage, an IUI cycle could run anywhere from a few to several hundred dollars with clever coding by the doctor's office and some luck with prescription drug coverage slipping under the radar. Without luck, depending on the amount of drugs you must take and where you buy them (many buy from Europe) you could do it for $2000 or less.

 

[EMom]

After doing a brief bit of searching, I found that Kate had a Dx of PCOS- a very common infertility problem. That wasn't my personal Dx, but I know several women who have it and are struggling to concieve with the help of Reproductive Endocrinologists. It's highly doubtful that anyone who undergoes infertility treatments "are able to have children, but want multiples." In fact, that's a load of crap. RE's won't do treatments to women who have not been diagnosed.

With a PCOS diagnosis, much of the testing for IUI can be coded in such a way that insurance will pay for it, even if they would not pay for infertility treatments.

 

[sha_lyn]

With a PCOS diagnosis, much of the testing for IUI can be coded in such a way that insurance will pay for it, even if they would not pay for infertility treatments.

I believe my point was lost considering the post saying that IUI can be covered by insurance.
My point was that there is an accusation that they were insured, Jon was unemployed and that there weren't any fertility problems.

There are many problems with the accusations
So an with no income and no insurance they found a fertility specialist that would treat Kate when she wasn't actually infertile, but just wanted to have another set of multiples. Not only found a Dr, but were able to pay out of pocket, and they planned a multiple pregnancy when they weren't insured.

The facts completely contradict such accusations, but apparently some people have nothing better to do but make up lies.

 

[TheDisneyGirl02]

In a case where a woman has previously conceived and given birth to twins, she clearly has a track record of success. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that if she has oodles of follicles getting ready to ripen into eggs, and sperm hits those eggies, there is a very good chance she will conceive higher order multiples.

My mom has twins - I am one of them. Before my twin and I were born, my Mom had a still-born baby at 8 months. About 7 months after their loss, my mom became pregnant with my sister and me. We are identical, mirror image twins - can't get much more identical than mirror image.

About 5 year ago, after being sick for years, my mom was diagnosed with celiac disease. Some of the characteristics of celiac disease is infertility, miscarriages or still births. It was truly a miracle that my mom became pregnant, especially with twins.

My twin and I are her only children, but who knows if she would have been able to have any more children because of her condition. Just because a person has twins doesn't mean that the person has a 'track record' for mulitples.

 

[EMom]

I'm speaking within the confines of someone who has a history of conception via infertility treatment, as did Kate. That is completely different from your mother's situation. Apples and oranges, so to speak.

It seems Kate responds to the medication, successfully produces follicles, her follicles mature into healthy eggs, the sperm and egg were "compatible" and of whatever number of follicles she produced, at least two resulted in live birth twins. That is VERY positive and is a resounding infertility success story. With that track record, there would probably be good hope for success on subsequent attempts and not a lot of need to go super risky.

Without knowing her medical records, it's hard to be specific, but here's a scenario. Let's say she produced 5-6 follicles with the first pregnancy that produced twins. If the second go around produced 10 follicles, an RE might be wary of proceeding, fearful that a woman who conceived 2 babies with 5-6 follicles could easily conceive 4 or more with 10 follicles. Even if she only produced the exact same 5-6 follicles as the first time, if she was dead set on a singleton, the RE would probably warn her that she had a good chance of twins or more and let her decide whether or not to proceed. But obviously, Kate had a bare minimum of 6 follicles/eggs. Minimum. And odds are it was more than that. (Unless two of the 6 are identical twins??)

If Jon was unemployed, and therefore they had no insurance, that could explain why they decided to take chances. Maybe they felt as if they had only a few shots at success.

 

[eeyoregon]

No matter how much Kate might annoy some you have to give her a for her love of Walt Disney World! LOVE that episode!!!

I think they are a great family and I love the show and could care less how/when/why they conceived their family...none of our business and if you don't like them then don't watch their show. Off to watch re-runs of Jon and Kate..........

 

[PrincessSuzanne]

Just to clarify........

There was a very good way to control it, actually. Responsible reproductive endocrinologists and potential parents do it every month. When you find you have too many follicles maturing and the risk of conceiving higher order multiples is obvious, you do not have sex/proceed with IUI. You stop the procedure in its tracks. In a case where a woman has previously conceived and given birth to twins, she clearly has a track record of success. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that if she has oodles of follicles getting ready to ripen into eggs, and sperm hits those eggies, there is a very good chance she will conceive higher order multiples.

Many REs will flat out refuse to go any further if they see too many follicles maturing and won't give the necessary medication to continue the process. You can certainly doctor shop and find one who will go along, because believe me, plenty of them are of the philosophy, "You can just reduce the pregnancy." Of course, that assumes the woman will be willing to reduce and not insist on carrying all the babies. But many woman won't do that.

It all comes down to what risks you're willing to take. Are you willing to risk conceiving 6 babies and trying to carry them long enough so that they will live and maybe even be healthy? If you're not, then you stop before insemination.

We had to make this decison with IVF as well. The first clinic we visited insisted on implanting 6 embryos on the first attempt. When I balked at that and said I didn't want to risk higher order multiples, they casually said I could reduce if that happened. To me, that was not a casual thing. So we found a clinic that was willing to be more conservative, implant fewer embryos and worry less about its precious statistics and more about its patients.

That being said, this is the same clinic that "produced" either septuplets or octuplets. The inside scoop on that was that the mom hyperovulated (that was a whole other story on its own) and the doctors told her to stay a mile away from any sperm because she was bound to conceive higher order multiples. Clearly, she did not stay away from Mr. Sperm. My dr. couldn't say all he wanted, but I could tell he was mortified that the entire country thought he had been behind the conception of those babies and planned it, when all along he'd tried to get her to avoid it. But it wasn't like he could go on national TV and say, "I told her not to have sex, but she did it anyway. There's no way I'd help a woman have 7-8 babies! I swear!"

That couple put on the "poor us" act too and begged shamelessly for whatever they could get. I don't have a lot of sympathy because they got themselves in this mess. On the other hand, DH & I took the responsible route and avoided higher order multiples.....Which meant we wound up spending tens of thousands of dollars more than the "gamblers" and never had a biological child, but we simply felt it was too irresponsible and unfair to any potential babies to take such chances. (Not to mention my health.) Most women who take such a gamble and conceive HOM lose big time. Kate beat the odds. But no one owes her or her kids a thing. Certainly not Pennsylvania.

I am well aware of how the procedure works, been there done that and I unfortunately left empty handed and heartbroken. But that doesn't mean it could be controlled. I produced many follicles, but none of mine ever released, not even with the HCG shot. Mine seemed to just disolve, it they did anything at all. Just because a woman has 10 mature follicles, doesn't mean they will all fertilize.

The other sextuplets that used to be shown on tv were conceived via IVF in the earlier years before doctors limited the number of eggs returned to the uterus, so it can happen with IVF as well.

An Endocrinologist will treat without a diagnosis. Dh and I had limited resources, so we didn't go through all the diagnosis prior to treatment. I have been treated for PCOS, but not actually diagnosed with it. We also have male factor. to this day, 6.5 years after marriage, we still don't know why we are emptyhanded, but we are and always will be.

I don't understand what this has to do with whether Kate is a good mother or not. We all make bad choices (if that is what she did), but she handles it well. Jon and Kate obviously love each other and all of their children, so I don't see a problem there.

I am a princess, diva, and sometimes act a little superior, but that doesn't make me a bad person and it doesn't make Kate a bad person either. I am sure I would be a little (ok, alot) OCD as well if I had that many children.

I have never seen any behavior from parent or children that is out of the ordinary. If Kate is bad person for "ruling" Jon, I would hate for you to see me and DH, because my DH couldn't much of anything with me telling him what to do.

Suzanne

 

[Camster0307]

Please tell me how to use the ignore...TIA!

Go to your User CP (upper left corner); go to miscellaneous and choose buddy/ignore list. You'll be taken to a screen that contains a place to type in the name of posters you want to ignore, add the name, and their posts will not appear on your screen.

Now, I'm off to hang out on the "nicer" Jon & Kate thread. I'm really not into bashing people for their lifestyle choices.

 

[Savsmommy]

I love this show. My DD is the same age as Cara and Mady and my son is the same age as the sextuplets. I think Jon and Kate do a great job raising 8 kids. Kate always says she wants there family to be able to do everything that a smaller family would do. Who cares if they get stuff for free or donations. Good for them.

 

[mickeyboat]

Then you should never have kids.

Its ABUSE to drag all the kids to a furniture store FOR the cameras, and have your one son writhing in pain with 1 week long constipation suffer while you look at booklets of bunk beds.
Its abuse to threaten to throw away your childs favorite security toy because he gotta lil gum on it, because YOU didnt want to waste your Organic Peanut Butter to remove the gum...

DON'T YOU DARE.

 

[FergieTCat]

Ask yourself also, why none of the other families of multiples chose to do series on tv, save 1 special a year just to stop prying eyes.
Because its EXPLOITIVE. And it rapes these children of NORMALCY and PRIVACY!
These arent CHILDREN anymore. They are STARS and they have fan clubs.
They cant go anywhere without ppl knowing them. They have lost the very thing that allows them FREEDOM.
They are A ZOO EXHIBIT IN A CAGE!
And their own parents have orchestrated and pimped them out for the almighty dollar...

I'm sure Becky Dilley would be intrigued with your views.

Sounds to me like you have a personal grudge with Kate Gosselin.

 

[holcomb-mania]

Jon looks like a hostage every time Kate is around.

 

[peyjax]

I used to watch the show everyweek. I loved it, my DH detested it. I use to reply on the old thread that got shut down. The troll poster was very rude and out of line. I do think though that raising questions about them is not necessarily a bad thing.

Sometimes you need take off the rose colored glasses and see them for what they are. The fact is the show and thier life has changed drastically since the beginning of the series. Granted it is only a half hour a week and you can not get to know someone well, however you can get a general idea of who they are.

I stopped watching because I did start to question the way they did things and felt I was supporting the ratings therefore supporting them. When I say supporting I mean just that and mostly in a financial sense. Without that show they would not have anything that they have now. It got to the point that it was very obvious they were exploiting the kids in some areas. What is the need to show potty training, bath tub scenes and boys in thier underwear. Yes boys like torun around in their underwear, however if the doorbell rings guess who has to put on their pants! Let alone let milliions of viewers catch personal family moments. Kate does expect hand outs and freebies. She wants things her way and she gets them that way. I did question her and did some research. I took it all with a grain of salt, however it did open my eyes a bit. Please do not think I am Kate bashing. I think that they are both held responsible for thier choices as a family.

It just seems that the more the show went on the more they expected (big house and now a bigger house) Sure who would not want a big house with that many kids, but the fact is the house they have now is very nice. It kind of takes away from the reality of it all when everything is given to them. Who could not manage that many kids with all the help (financially and physically) that they recieve. Am i jealous? No, in fact in the previous thread I totally got what they were doing in the beginning. I just think there is a line and they are defianatly crossing it in my book. So I stopped watching. I still do get curious about them and the kids are adorable. A yearly show would do just fine IMHO.

 

[pamouselover]

I am not saying they are bad parents, I don’t think they abuse them at all. Kate is a bit too much, and I don’t think having eight kids did that too her. I won’t stop watching the show, I do enjoy it. I am not sure where I read it, but when I found it I will post it. I I know people who had problems trying to get pregnant. So I am very aware of the subject. I have a friend who tried for years, and finally adopted. Kate was young, and from what I read it looked like they tried for a couple of months and then ran to get drugs.
My beef is that I should not be paying for their eight children’s health Insurance. I am sorry but if you lived in Pa. and paid our high taxes etc. and hear that someone is getting free health Ins. from the state ...you would think it sucks too.

When I became pregant with my DD my DH work was bought buy new owners who decide not to pay the Ins. premiers, even though DH was paying 50.oo odd dollars taken out a week. We found out by my OB/GYN when I was five months. Shock and not knowing where to turn, the women in the office felt horrible informing us. We had no clue. We called and sure enough it had been cancelled. We were unable to get any help from state nor get on the cobra program. We had to take out a loan to pay for all of the medical expense to have her, and pay ahead of time. Then when my DH lost his job six years ago, we could not even get on a chip program from the state. They told him he made to much the previous year to be ineligible. We had to wait till the new job open enrollment came up.

My niece is a single Mom who works at BK as a manager working 40 plus hours at week, and still waiting for the state to get her ex. for child support. She gets nothing from the state. Her DD was on Medicaid, and because BK offers Ins. Her DD was removed from Medicaid. So why should someone who has a nursing degree, and her DH who is able to work get a free ride? I don’t care what they get from stores etc. But I am paying for their children Ins. and that is not right.


Yes, I will still watch the show, but I don not like the fact that these children are on medicad and I am paying for them.

 

[bebelle]

No matter how much Kate might annoy some you have to give her a for her love of Walt Disney World! LOVE that episode!!!

I think they are a great family and I love the show and could care less how/when/why they conceived their family...none of our business and if you don't like them then don't watch their show. Off to watch re-runs of Jon and Kate..........

AMEN!!!

 

[sha_lyn]

When I became pregant with my DD my DH work was bought buy new owners who decide not to pay the Ins. premiers, even though DH was paying 50.oo odd dollars taken out a week. We found out by my OB/GYN when I was five months. Shock and not knowing where to turn, the women in the office felt horrible informing us. We had no clue. We called and sure enough it had been cancelled. We were unable to get any help from state nor get on the cobra program. We had to take out a loan to pay for all of the medical expense to have her, and pay ahead of time. Then when my DH lost his job six years ago, we could not even get on a chip program from the state. They told him he made to much the previous year to be ineligible. We had to wait till the new job open enrollment came up.

My niece is a single Mom who works at BK as a manager working 40 plus hours at week, and still waiting for the state to get her ex. for child support. She gets nothing from the state. Her DD was on Medicaid, and because BK offers Ins. Her DD was removed from Medicaid. So why should someone who has a nursing degree, and her DH who is able to work get a free ride? I don’t care what they get from stores etc. But I am paying for their children Ins. and that is not right.

Yes, I will still watch the show, but I don not like the fact that these children are on medicad and I am paying for them.

They haven't been on Medicaid for a long time. The only reason they were on to begin with, isbecause John was fired from his job during her pregnancy, therefore they lost their insurance coverage.
Kate was on bedrest for most of the pregnancy, therefore it was impossible for her to have worked at all much less as a nurse.
Sorry but it sounds like you are just upset that they qualified, when you and your niece did not.

 

[PrincessSuzanne]

I am not saying they are bad parents, I don’t think they abuse them at all. Kate is a bit too much, and I don’t think having eight kids did that too her. I won’t stop watching the show, I do enjoy it. I am not sure where I read it, but when I found it I will post it. I I know people who had problems trying to get pregnant. So I am very aware of the subject. I have a friend who tried for years, and finally adopted. Kate was young, and from what I read it looked like they tried for a couple of months and then ran to get drugs.
My beef is that I should not be paying for their eight children’s health Insurance. I am sorry but if you lived in Pa. and paid our high taxes etc. and hear that someone is getting free health Ins. from the state ...you would think it sucks too.

When I became pregant with my DD my DH work was bought buy new owners who decide not to pay the Ins. premiers, even though DH was paying 50.oo odd dollars taken out a week. We found out by my OB/GYN when I was five months. Shock and not knowing where to turn, the women in the office felt horrible informing us. We had no clue. We called and sure enough it had been cancelled. We were unable to get any help from state nor get on the cobra program. We had to take out a loan to pay for all of the medical expense to have her, and pay ahead of time. Then when my DH lost his job six years ago, we could not even get on a chip program from the state. They told him he made to much the previous year to be ineligible. We had to wait till the new job open enrollment came up.

My niece is a single Mom who works at BK as a manager working 40 plus hours at week, and still waiting for the state to get her ex. for child support. She gets nothing from the state. Her DD was on Medicaid, and because BK offers Ins. Her DD was removed from Medicaid. So why should someone who has a nursing degree, and her DH who is able to work get a free ride? I don’t care what they get from stores etc. But I am paying for their children Ins. and that is not right.


Yes, I will still watch the show, but I don not like the fact that these children are on medicad and I am paying for them.

They wouldn't have removed your neice's DD from Mcaid because her job offers insurance, she must have been making too much to receive it. I know this because that is what I do for a living. Also, preg mcaid has different guidelines than other types of medicaid as well.

There are alot more people getting a free ride everyday through disability and state assistance, simply because they are lazy and have cheated the system, those are the ones you need to be mad at, not Jon and Kate.

Suzanne

 

[pamouselover]

My neice makes 9 dollars an hour. She was told due to she works full time and they offer Ins. Maybe your state is differnt.

What is the differnce between Jon and Kate and those other people? They are doing the same thing not working and getting Ins. for free. They are both capable of working. She could work nights as a nurse. My Mom did for many years,as a single Mom raising five at home.

They wouldn't have removed your neice's DD from Mcaid because her job offers insurance, she must have been making too much to receive it. I know this because that is what I do for a living. Also, preg mcaid has different guidelines than other types of medicaid as well.

There are alot more people getting a free ride everyday through disability and state assistance, simply because they are lazy and have cheated the system, those are the ones you need to be mad at, not Jon and Kate.

Suzanne