Jon and Kate Plus 8, Official Thread--Part 7

[DMRick]

I agree that there are moments when moms and dads have said or done the wrong thing. What is different with Kate is that she boldy, brazenly puts it all out there for the world to see. Unashamedly and without apology. Heck, she wants to continue with the show despite all the poor moments TLC has shown of her. What does that say about her? IMO it says that she doesn't care what people think of her, she doesn't think she's doing anything wrong. Good grief, nobody put a gun to her head forcing her to be on TV for everyone to see and criticize.

I think she thinks she is doing this for her children. I think you are right that she is without apology. Does that make her wrong, or does it mean she is so convinced what she is doing it right, that for her it is? I don't agree that she doesn't care what people think about her..but I think she is so convinced she is doing this for her children, she lives with it for what she thinks will be worth it in the end. I really don't know any answers based on what little I know from watching this edited show.

Don't you think Doris, that this kind of life (reality tv) will have a negative impact on the kids when they're older? Won't they be embarassed, angry or bitter when they see some of these episodes? What will they think of Kate (and Jon to some extent) for allowing this? Will they enjoy seeing their parents like (gumgate, coupon episode, walk in the woods, etc.) I'm sorry, but I think Kate is in for a rude awakening when the kids are bit older. I don't think her argument that she did it all for the kids is going to go over well with them. That's my honest opinion.

I don't know. I just don't know. Maybe they will thank J & K for the funds in their college accounts. Maybe they enjoyed it. Maybe they will all need extensive help to get past this. I just don't know, based on what I've seen. The kids live this life, and for them maybe it's not having or going to have the affect on them that we think it is from having discussed it and gone back and forth ad nauseam with each other, picking apart every little scene. I just don't know.

By the way..you know I respect your opinion, and you do make me think, the way you put it out there

 

[hbkfan637]

Why, thank you.

I'm glad I am not alone in seeing it on the DIS. Yes, the behaviors are definitely there to be seen on the show. Upfront and central with Kate. It saddens me that despite so many years of education on the types of abuse, so many people chose to ignore or excuse the typical characteristics.

So, I'm going to roll up my sleeves and try to keep educating. The Gosselin case is interesting because it is the woman who was primarily the abuser. Many people want to deny that women can also be abusive.

For those who want to dismiss my views out of hand -- I can only name abusive behavior when I see it, even from my armchair. And I have years of experience in working in Domestic Violence and many of my colleagues agree with me on the Gosselin situation.

Prevention is essential. So please think about it and educate yourselves. Take this well beyond Jon and Kate.

And for those of you who want to scoff at or deny abusive behavior. Please don't. It is unbecoming and denies the reality of many victims. Just saying.

Respectfully I disagree. I don't see Kate as an abuser or Jon as a victim. She isn't a nice person sometimes but I really don't see a abuser. And even if I saw signs that makes me suspect, I wouldn't call her abuser unless I can observe/talk to Kate for awhile in person. I don't believe anyone is qualified to claim anything about a person based on edited footage. Even Jon said himself that TLC edited it to make Kate look mean.. that they edited out stuff he said and resolutions.

I also believe that abuse is not the only thing that explains how Jon acts/acted after the divorce was announced. He mentioned missing his 20's, how he didn't like staying home, and how he was jealous that Kate got to do all this stuff and that makes me feel like he felt he was trapped. Jon feeling trapped and now feeling free can also explain his recent actions, IMO.

 

[barkley]

By his and Kate's account--he was a player before he got married and had that "bad boy" image....seems he has returnd to his roots--and yes, he can be completely faulted for that.

and kate married him knowing that, she's said he was involved with someone else when they got together and subsequently broke up with that person to be with her.


while i don't approve of the kind of behaviour he's displaying i always marvel at women who get into relationships/marriages with these types of men. are they so naive or so egotistical as to believe that a man who cheated with them (and 'yes' i do believe that even absent marriage when a person is emotionaly involved with another and they begin an emotional relationship/dating another person before the first relationship has ended it is cheating) on another women won't turn around and do the same thing to them?

many marriages are doomed because as the old saying goes 'women marry a man with the ideal of who he will become, men marry a woman believing she will always be the same girl he fell in love with'. i don't know if kate is any different now than she was when she and jon met but it's obvious that jon is very much the same.



btw-on the marker issue: if a person does'nt want their child using markers why do they take them on a child centered outing to a factory that is in the buisness of making markers where it's well known that a large part of the appeal of taking a child there are the hands on activities? to me that would be like taking a child on the jelly belly factory tour (where a big part of it is the constant samples they hand out) and saying they could'nt have any jelly belly's because the parent does'nt like them-why take them in the first place? find another kid centered activity where the kid can enjoy the intent of being there.

 

[3prettyprincesses]

I think she thinks she is doing this for her children. I think you are right that she is without apology. Does that make her wrong, or does it mean she is so convinced what she is doing it right, that for her it is? I don't agree that she doesn't care what people think about her..but I think she is so convinced she is doing this for her children, she lives with it for what she thinks will be worth it in the end. I really don't know any answers based on what little I know from watching this edited show.

I don't know. I just don't know. Maybe they will thank J & K for the funds in their college accounts. Maybe they enjoyed it. Maybe they will all need extensive help to get past this. I just don't know, based on what I've seen. The kids live this life, and for them maybe it's not having or going to have the affect on them that we think it is from having discussed it and gone back and forth ad nauseam with each other, picking apart every little scene. I just don't know.

By the way..you know I respect your opinion, and you do make me think, the way you put it out there

Ditto Doris. I agree with you that Kate really does believe what she says. In her mind I think she truly does think this is all for the kids and therefore doesn't see how it might affect them adversely.

BTW, when do we pick apart every little scene?

 

[DMRick]

btw-on the marker issue: if a person does'nt want their child using markers why do they take them on a child centered outing to a factory that is in the buisness of making markers where it's well known that a large part of the appeal of taking a child there are the hands on activities?

I would have been foolish enough to think it was a crayon factory, not a marker factory (although now I see it is both).
I did notice though, that they have stain removal tips on their website, so those that can't get the stains out might want to visit it

 

[WaltD4Me]

I watched The Insider tonight...dont ask me why, that show is awful. But they showed a clip of Jon picking up Mady and Cara from the school bus. Of course the papparazzi are there. Jon is walking to his car with the girls and the Pap asks Jon what he thought of Kate's interview, Jon shrugged. The the Pap says "Jon, Kate said she still loves you." Now Cara and Mady are right there, does Jon say "Not in front of the kids guys." Nope, Jon stops to talk to them. The Pap asks Jon if he still loves Kate, Jon says "I always will, she is the mother of my kids." As if things aren't confusing enough for the kids.

On a side note....I watched Kathy Griffin's new stand up special on Bravo. She was talking about doing The View with Kate, after she called Jon a "lazy useless tool" she said originally LaToya Jackson was supposed to be the guest host, but when she found out Kathy Griffin was one of the guests that day she bowed out. Kathy said they called Kate in to guest host last minute for LaToya. Remember? We were trying to figure out why Kate did that last show? She did like Tuesday or Wednesday and then again Friday. She was just covering for LaToya who was trying to avoid Kathy Griffin!

 

[lookingforward]

Respectfully I disagree. I don't see Kate as an abuser or Jon as a victim. She isn't a nice person sometimes but I really don't see a abuser. And even if I saw signs that makes me suspect, I wouldn't call her abuser unless I can observe/talk to Kate for awhile in person. I don't believe anyone is qualified to claim anything about a person based on edited footage. Even Jon said himself that TLC edited it to make Kate look mean.. that they edited out stuff he said and resolutions.

I also believe that abuse is not the only thing that explains how Jon acts/acted after the divorce was announced. He mentioned missing his 20's, how he didn't like staying home, and how he was jealous that Kate got to do all this stuff and that makes me feel like he felt he was trapped. Jon feeling trapped and now feeling free can also explain his recent actions, IMO.

I agree with your post. Its impossible to really determine someone's true self from edited television shows. I am a full time domestic violence advocate for a police department and I just don't see kate's behavior as classically abusive. She may be verbally abusive at times but again, thats edited for public consumption and to sell the show. They have to have a "hook" and her abrasive personality is key to that end.

I will say that I think Jon is really a lost soul who may just believe that all the media attention is his "due' and not a by-product of the public's appreciation for the kids. He seems very self absorbed and narcissistic. Kate simply seems lost.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

The first amendment: "The First Amendment to the United States Constitution is part of the Bill of Rights. The amendment prohibits the Congress from making laws "respecting an establishment of religion", prohibiting the free exercise of religion, infringing on the freedom of speech and infringing on the freedom of the press."

And that has to do with the Gosselins putting the children on TV, making them work, and exploiting their childhoods? How?

We are talking Child Labor Laws here, not freedom of speech, the press or religion.

All I want is just boring basic guidelines, that I would hope most sensible people would support. I would hope that any decent parent, even those who want to put a child on TV, would respect these points:

1. Children on "Reality TV" should be protected under some kind of federal Coogan Law so that some portion of their earnings are dedicated to their future. I'm not satisfied that a parent *might* voluntarily put a portion away for their future. Note, Kate has never specified a dollar amount socked away for the kids, nor has either Gosselin parent ever been required to do so under PA law.

2. Children on "Reality TV" should have some limitations put on the filming of their lives. Yes, there will always be people who want their children to work, and being filmed IS working. I'd like to see an absolute maximum of a 4 hour working day (in my dreams) so that educational and play opportunities are maximized. YMMV. Note, within the very loose boundaries of local child labor laws, the Gosselins are still under investigation on this one.. I bet they have filmed more than the PA guidelines on some days. And probably they have done that without work permits . . . PA was asleep at the switch.

3. Respect of privacy for children, remarkably absent from the early Gosselin shows. I'm not dancing around this one. Would you really film your child on the potty and put it on Youtube? If you would, I am very sad for you and your child. The Gosselin potty experienses are out there . . .

Kids do need privacy. and we need to tighten the laws on what is allowed on the internet if people think that this Gosselin is really Ok.

I do not.

Pullups commericals film children on the potty and pulling up their pull up---gotta say, it's already allowed.

If you want the limitations that you state, sounds like you should be fighting to repeal all child labor laws re: entertainment as you seem to be very misguided as to what is permitted.

We do not film our children in bathtubs or potties at all, but that is our choice.

However--I wouldn't restrict a parent's right to document their child as long as it isn't child porn. And no--a baby's bottom is not child porn.

Parents have right to document their families as they see fit (as long as it isn't child porn) and if they wish to broadcast their families, they should be able to.

It isn't a choice that I would necessarily make or even agree with--however, I don't believe in restricting parental rights b/c some well meaning folks hate a particular set of parents.

But all this "campaigng" for these children to be protected--once they are included under current laws, would you be happy?

I don't think so.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

I forgot about the stick. I felt so bad for Collin. His face was so sad.

My kids keep all sorts of things from nature.

The ones they "lose' are the ones being used inappropriately.

We have such a walking stick. It's on the verge of getting "lost' b/c of what is done with it.

I didn't see the episode (YES--OPINON COMING WITHOUT VIEWING--WARNING WARNING )--

But perhaps the family has a rule, perhaps something was done with the stick...I don't know.

But I don't consider it cruel (without seeing it of course--maybe it was, I don't know.)

However--kids can't have anythng and everything they want. For some folks who have blatant opinions that these kids get way too much, I'm a bit surprised at the protests when a decision is made to get rid of something. The manner may be inappropriate. But the decision is not necessarily incorrect, mean, or cruel.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

To your list, I would have to add that children can film no more than 5 days per week, no exceptions. And must be given at least 2 months off per year. Children need downtime even more than adults do. And their real full-time job is school, so any filming really is like working overtime.

All existing child labor laws demonstrate that your thought is incorrect.

I don't understand why you guys don't see that?

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

and kate married him knowing that, she's said he was involved with someone else when they got together and subsequently broke up with that person to be with her.

I had only mentioned it b/c someone believes how he is acting now is a result of abuse. He's acting no different than before he was married. Except that he is older and has more money.

while i don't approve of the kind of behaviour he's displaying i always marvel at women who get into relationships/marriages with these types of men. are they so naive or so egotistical as to believe that a man who cheated with them (and 'yes' i do believe that even absent marriage when a person is emotionaly involved with another and they begin an emotional relationship/dating another person before the first relationship has ended it is cheating) on another women won't turn around and do the same thing to them?

I agree--but I wasn't stating that in that context. I was only responding to "he's doing this b/c he was abused".

many marriages are doomed because as the old saying goes 'women marry a man with the ideal of who he will become, men marry a woman believing she will always be the same girl he fell in love with'. i don't know if kate is any different now than she was when she and jon met but it's obvious that jon is very much the same.

From what little they have shown us of their home videos, plus candid hearsay about how she was growing up--I'd say she is "similar" but perhaps a "stronger" version of her old self. (strong as in the qualities are more pronounced and obvious..not that she is a stronger woman. Couldnt' think of another adjective.)

btw-on the marker issue: if a person does'nt want their child using markers why do they take them on a child centered outing to a factory that is in the buisness of making markers where it's well known that a large part of the appeal of taking a child there are the hands on activities?

I though tthey were permitted to use crayons? We have not gone to crayola factory, but we went to a neat crayola store and they do make more than markers.

to me that would be like taking a child on the jelly belly factory tour (where a big part of it is the constant samples they hand out) and saying they could'nt have any jelly belly's because the parent does'nt like them-why take them in the first place? find another kid centered activity where the kid can enjoy the intent of being there.

I can't say it is the same. Crayola makes many more products aside from markers. Jelly Belly only makes....jelly beans?

 

[Tinker74]

I thought that was Carla, not Beth. Carla was also shown babysitting, at the yard sale, and I think also was at the tups 5th birthday party. Carla has been described as a paid employee, but was supposedly a "friend of Kate" from way-back also.

Beth has only released one quite dignified statement to my knowledge (which is not exhaustive). She said something along the lines of "they lived it, I wrote it" on Multiple Blessings. That was after the publication of the book, when Kate was on her book tour and rather pointedly not mentioning Beth's co-authorship. Beth has been out of the picture and off-film since she left the Utah trip early. Jodi flew to Utah to help J&K + 8 home. Remember Jodi? She gave them a lot of time back then, but then it all went bad.

So, Carla, Kate's parents and her sisters have so far said nothing at all to the press. I would hope they are given the benefit of the doubt for respecting her privacy. She can't accuse them of betraying her. Oooh, perhaps Carla is # 6, if the Neilds are 1-4, and Jamie is #5.

Poor Kate. I find it a little strange that her family are not jumping to support her. I can only wonder why.

Yes Jodi gave them a lot of time then....because she had $$$$$ signs in her eyes.
If anyone thinks it was out of the goodness of her heart I call Bull crap!

Who flies to Utah to babysit neices and nephews when then have 4 kids themselves back home?????

Someone with an agenda (fame hungry dollar hungry) thats who...as she has proven by her money grabbing back stabbing interviews!

EUUUCCCHH!! can you tell she disgusts me..

 

[mhsjax]

Yes Jodi gave them a lot of time then....because she had $$$$$ signs in her eyes.
If anyone thinks it was out of the goodness of her heart I call Bull crap!

Who flies to Utah to babysit neices and nephews when then have 4 kids themselves back home?????

Someone with an agenda (fame hungry dollar hungry) thats who...as she has proven by her money grabbing back stabbing interviews!

EUUUCCCHH!! can you tell she disgusts me..

Ok, lets say that I will say that it is a possibility, would you also agree that Kate had $$$$$ in her eyes? I think she did. And if that applies to Jodi, then it applies to Kate, so am I to assume you are disgusted by Kate as well? Because, who leaves their 6 sick kids with an aunt, so they can fly off and get a hair transplant? Just wondering.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Ok, lets say that I will say that it is a possibility, would you also agree that Kate had $$$$$ in her eyes? I think she did. And if that applies to Jodi, then it applies to Kate, so am I to assume you are disgusted by Kate as well? Because, who leaves their 6 sick kids with an aunt, so they can fly off and get a hair transplant? Just wondering.

Okay--you win on hair transplant. I can't see how that came close to a need. (the tummy tuck, I totally understood though others may not.)

However--traveling to help a family on a vacation--when you have your own brood at home just seems odd to me.

Everyone I know would be saying--sorry, got my own family to take care of.

I couldn't even watch the hair plug episode.

 

[Tinker74]

Ok, lets say that I will say that it is a possibility, would you also agree that Kate had $$$$$ in her eyes? I think she did. And if that applies to Jodi, then it applies to Kate, so am I to assume you are disgusted by Kate as well? Because, who leaves their 6 sick kids with an aunt, so they can fly off and get a hair transplant? Just wondering.

No...iam not disgusted by kate...i can't put my finger on it...With Jodi I think its because she makes out she is as sweet as pie and just loves those kids..(yeah right)...She likes to paint a picture of herself as the selfless and loving aunt...who lives a simple life and helps kates and appears on tV out of the goodness of her big heart..

Like i say...Bull crap!!!

At least with kate she admits the show is for the $$$...I think she could do without some of the fame...but she does the show for HER kids...to \provide for them...That I believe and I respect her motives.

But that JODI...don't get me started!!!!...Little miss sweet is not so nice after all....her gameplan fell threw and the claws came out.

Its a gut feeling I have with her....And as for Kevin...spineless comes to mind..(doing that to his own sister shseeesh!!)

 

[Tinker74]

Okay--you win on hair transplant. I can't see how that came close to a need. (the tummy tuck, I totally understood though others may not.)

However--traveling to help a family on a vacation--when you have your own brood at home just seems odd to me.

Everyone I know would be saying--sorry, got my own family to take care of.

I couldn't even watch the hair plug episode.

Yep...You see it too....

Little miss weet Jodi want a peice of the $$$$ pie her inlaws were getting..and she was prepared to do anything to edge her way in front of those camera for a contract.

But wil she admit it..No she will not...she prefers to take the moral high ground now that her plan fell through..Just like Jon does now his contract has fallen through....funny that!


Thats why I can't stand her...what a back stabbing little madam!

Shew thinks she can fool the public well she hasn't fooled me!

 

[mhsjax]

Yep...You see it too....

Little miss weet Jodi want a peice of the $$$$ pie her inlaws were getting..and she was prepared to do anything to edge her way in front of those camera for a contract.

But wil she admit it..No she will not...she prefers to take the moral high ground now that her plan fell through..Just like Jon does now his contract has fallen through....funny that!


Thats why I can't stand her...what a back stabbing little madam!

Shew thinks she can fool the public well she hasn't fooled me!

YOu have about as much hatred for Jodi as I do Kate. And I don't know, I think if I could leave my hubby at home with my 3 and go to Park City Utah even if it was to help, then I probably would, just to see the place.

 

[mhsjax]

Okay--you win on hair transplant. I can't see how that came close to a need. (the tummy tuck, I totally understood though others may not.)

However--traveling to help a family on a vacation--when you have your own brood at home just seems odd to me.

Everyone I know would be saying--sorry, got my own family to take care of.

I couldn't even watch the hair plug episode.

I agree, and others probably don't, but even with as much as I disagree with Kate, I in no way begrudge her that tummy tuck. It would be something that would have been terrible to go through life with, especially when she was trim everywhere else. And I watched enough of the hair transplant to know about the kids, I couldn't watch the rest of it. YUCK

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

YOu have about as much hatred for Jodi as I do Kate. And I don't know, I think if I could leave my hubby at home with my 3 and go to Park City Utah even if it was to help, then I probably would, just to see the place.

See that's the funny thing.

You'll excuse Jodi to go on "vacation" and "help" with the kids--

But Kate gets raked over the coals for what relates to her "job" when she travels for abandoning her kids.

Must be nice that Jodi's DH's job facilitates her travel to exotic locales, b/c it would be hypocritical to bless her having a "nanny" to care for her kids while she's off nannying for free for Kate's crew.

Anyway--I don't think it is all that big of a deal that Jodi went.

The irony that was pointed out though is priceless.

 

[Tinker74]

YOu have about as much hatred for Jodi as I do Kate. And I don't know, I think if I could leave my hubby at home with my 3 and go to Park City Utah even if it was to help, then I probably would, just to see the place.

LOL...i do don't I...I don't know iam usually quite mellow....but that Jodi just riles me!!..I don't even know why Iam more angry with her then kevin?

I just feel as if she wears the trousers and maybe pushed Kevin into the back stabbinh...i don't know though thats just a feeling..