Jon and Kate Plus 8, Official Thread--Part 7

[Lisa loves Pooh]

I hang in here because I see legal precedents in the offing, for the protection of the children. Gosselin/Dionne. That is where we are.

What type of legal precedent are you expecting?

B/c even under the most restrictive child actor laws--shows of this nature will not be banned.

There's the first amendment issue as well.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

As someone else previously mentioned, I do believe there are several of Kate's PR people posting here - or at least they think they are her PR people..

Or maybe they are among the "6 people she can trust" group??

I'm clueless--I'm not seeing posts that fawn over Kate.

But I only joined in Part 6 of this thread.

 

[walden]

What type of legal precedent are you expecting?

B/c even under the most restrictive child actor laws--shows of this nature will not be banned.

There's the first amendment issue as well.

The first amendment: "The First Amendment to the United States Constitution is part of the Bill of Rights. The amendment prohibits the Congress from making laws "respecting an establishment of religion", prohibiting the free exercise of religion, infringing on the freedom of speech and infringing on the freedom of the press."

And that has to do with the Gosselins putting the children on TV, making them work, and exploiting their childhoods? How?

We are talking Child Labor Laws here, not freedom of speech, the press or religion.

All I want is just boring basic guidelines, that I would hope most sensible people would support. I would hope that any decent parent, even those who want to put a child on TV, would respect these points:

1. Children on "Reality TV" should be protected under some kind of federal Coogan Law so that some portion of their earnings are dedicated to their future. I'm not satisfied that a parent *might* voluntarily put a portion away for their future. Note, Kate has never specified a dollar amount socked away for the kids, nor has either Gosselin parent ever been required to do so under PA law.

2. Children on "Reality TV" should have some limitations put on the filming of their lives. Yes, there will always be people who want their children to work, and being filmed IS working. I'd like to see an absolute maximum of a 4 hour working day (in my dreams) so that educational and play opportunities are maximized. YMMV. Note, within the very loose boundaries of local child labor laws, the Gosselins are still under investigation on this one.. I bet they have filmed more than the PA guidelines on some days. And probably they have done that without work permits . . . PA was asleep at the switch.

3. Respect of privacy for children, remarkably absent from the early Gosselin shows. I'm not dancing around this one. Would you really film your child on the potty and put it on Youtube? If you would, I am very sad for you and your child. The Gosselin potty experienses are out there . . .

Kids do need privacy. and we need to tighten the laws on what is allowed on the internet if people think that this Gosselin is really Ok.

I do not.

 

[DMRick]

And for those of you who want to scoff at or deny abusive behavior. Please don't. It is unbecoming and denies the reality of many victims. Just saying.

Please don't talk down to us, just because some of us disagree with you. This is a board..one where we have enjoyed getting together for months and many threads, and rehashing an edited TV show. We are not privileged to know all that goes on in this families life. We see a snippet weekly and a bunch of gossip on line. I'm more surprised that you know so many people who sit around and discuss a family that is on an edited TV show.
This is a board of opinions. I have no problem with you having your own opinion. I'm also entitled to mine, without you making it personal and saying that our opinions are 'unbecoming'. Just sayin...

 

[madge]

But, Jon did manage to stop the taping of the kids. But then again, the kids started school, and there is really nothing for TLC to tape for now.
On the interview, Kate confirmed that Jon is being sued by TLC for breaking his contract.
It is aggrivating, that they repeatedly said, if someone wants to stop taping, TLC would honor that.
I guess they meant the kids and not them.
I wonder how long it is going to take for the lawsuit to get to court,
or maybe your right Madge, and Jon will go back to taping.

I'm not sure they'll go back to taping now. My scenario was months ago, and how I thought the whole thing would end then. I'm not sure which way it's going to go now, but nothing will surprise me. LOL.

 

[DMRick]

I'm sorry, Kate not cruel, Gee how about threatening to throw a child favorite stuffed animal away because gum got on it, And the child crying and begging her not too. If that wasn't cruel I don't know what was. I could have reached through the tv and smacked that woman. Also not letting the older girls play with markers at crayola world and them begging her too, Um excuse me but those markers are washable, SHE IS CRUEL

I'll happily agree with you that Kate over reacted with the gum. Most people will. I don't remember much of the show with the markers. The gum I remember.

I don't know how many children you have, but I have three. I have said and done things in the moment that I wish I could have undone. But I wasn't on TV when it happened. I wish I could say I never lost my temper with my children but I would be lying. Thanks God I never got the invite to be on TV and have all my bad moments cast out for all to see. Cruel? Yes, I can see that that incident was hurtful to her child. I'm glad the toy was salvaged, and it's too bad it was taped, because it will be shown over and over. But there were also many really good times in their lives on TV..times when Kate's love was clear.
I'm glad I don't have a taped version in my memory box of the times when I lost it. Glad my children are wonderful, productive adults who I care deeply for, and care deeply for me, in spite of any mistakes I made as a young mother.

 

[DMRick]

As someone else previously mentioned, I do believe there are several of Kate's PR people posting here - or at least they think they are her PR people..

Oh baloney. It's a board for crying outloud. Just a place for people to chat about this show and the people on it. A few times now, people that don't like that someone has an opinion different from their's cry, Kate's PR people are here. How silly is that. With the exception of one or two people who are not even Kate defenders, most people that post here have been on the disboards for years, and post all over the place.

Opinions folks..are like belly buttons, we all have one. This would be a very sad/boring thread, if everyone who didn't hate Kate stayed away.

 

[MAKmom]

I'm sorry, Kate not cruel, Gee how about threatening to throw a child favorite stuffed animal away because gum got on it, And the child crying and begging her not too. If that wasn't cruel I don't know what was. I could have reached through the tv and smacked that woman. Also not letting the older girls play with markers at crayola world and them begging her too, Um excuse me but those markers are washable, SHE IS CRUEL

You must have lived a very charmed life.

I've threatened to throw out favorite toys because they have been left on the floor after my children have been told to put them away.

Are you sure you know what cruel means?

Cruel

Definition: Disposed to give pain to others; willing or pleased to hurt, torment, or afflict; destitute of sympathetic kindness and pity; savage; inhuman; hard-hearted; merciless.

 

[TanyaLovesPooh]

I'm sorry, Kate not cruel, Gee how about threatening to throw a child favorite stuffed animal away because gum got on it, And the child crying and begging her not too. If that wasn't cruel I don't know what was. I could have reached through the tv and smacked that woman. Also not letting the older girls play with markers at crayola world and them begging her too, Um excuse me but those markers are washable, SHE IS CRUEL

What she did to Collin that day was horrible. I wanted to reach through and smack her as well. I would hope that is an instant that she wishes she could change and gave him an apology. I also watched Jon take a stick that Collin wanted to keep for walking trails. Jon knew he wanted to keep it but took it from Collin and threw it over the fence after breaking it over his knee. Was that cruel? How about calling Joel a sissy on TV?
I wouldn't classify either one of them as cruel people, they are parents that used poor judgment at the time.

Noone excuses Kate's actions.

Noone is sugar coating anyone.

But you do seem to be taking your disdain to prove she is worse than she is.

That is the no different than sugar coating it.

Taking what you see, applying your opinions to it to spin it in the direction you want to go and voila--you have *proof* for your hypothesis.

The fact you are taking what people say here and stating that we must think her actions are okay--seems that once again, you are taking what you read and spinning it to fit in with what you believe.

Lots of people who seem to "support" Kate (or refuse to condemn her, anyway) would agree that she is not a nice person and don't "excuse" what she does. In fact many of us have stated she has done many inappropriate things. But for some reason that gets missed completely b/c we refuse to be mean about it.

As someone else previously mentioned, I do believe there are several of Kate's PR people posting here - or at least they think they are her PR people..

Or maybe they are among the "6 people she can trust" group??

Jon must have PR people posting on here as well then. The truly harsh or hateful posts are mostly thrown in Kate's direction, IMO.

 

[DMRick]

Here's an interesting article - written by a divorce lawyer.. Don't let the title scare you off - she is giving a balanced opinion of her views on Jon and Kate both..

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/karen-thalacker/pity-party-cry-a-thon-may_b_343684.html

This is a very well written article.

 

[DMRick]

I also watched Jon take a stick that Collin wanted to keep for walking trails. Jon knew he wanted to keep it but took it from Collin and threw it over the fence after breaking it over his knee. Was that cruel?

I forgot about the stick. I felt so bad for Collin. His face was so sad.

 

[mhsjax]

You must have lived a very charmed life.

I've threatened to throw out favorite toys because they have been left on the floor after my children have been told to put them away.

Are you sure you know what cruel means?

Cruel

Definition: Disposed to give pain to others; willing or pleased to hurt, torment, or afflict; destitute of sympathetic kindness and pity; savage; inhuman; hard-hearted; merciless.

Well see in my opinion Kate does have some of those qualities.

 

[whitneyNC]

Well see in my opinion Kate does have some of those qualities.

um, sadly it sounds like her.

 

[mhsjax]

I forgot about the stick. I felt so bad for Collin. His face was so sad.

I agree it was sad and cruel as well. I think JOn is a jerk also.

 

[walden]

You must have lived a very charmed life.

I've threatened to throw out favorite toys because they have been left on the floor after my children have been told to put them away.

Are you sure you know what cruel means?

Cruel

Definition: Disposed to give pain to others; willing or pleased to hurt, torment, or afflict; destitute of sympathetic kindness and pity; savage; inhuman; hard-hearted; merciless.

Yes. Kate has displayed many of those qualities. IMO

Next?

 

[DMRick]

I agree it was sad and cruel as well. I think JOn is a jerk also.

I didn't say cruel. I just didn't think it was very nice. But as I said, parenting is not always easy, and we make mistakes. Jon has also had great moments with the kids. I never doubted either of them love their children. I just don't think they get that this divorce should be private. But again, I just don't know everything there is to know. I just know what I see. I liked the article that C.Ann posted, and that lawyer seems like a smart person. I wish one of them had hired her.


Although if Kate gets a job for herself, all the more power to her. But the kids need a break right now.

 

[redrosesix]

Perhaps an idiot? Perhaps a fairly textbook case of survival from abuse?

Yes, I know many people here disagree with my conviction that Jon was abused, but here are the common symptoms of survivors of both genders: Isolation from others, feelings of low self-worth, depression, emotional problems, illness, increased alcohol or drug use, vulnerability to other abusive relationships . . .

And the characteristics of a verbally abusive wife/partner are here: http://www.lilaclane.com/relationships/emotional-abuse/male-victim-abuse.html


* She was verbally abused as a child, witnessed it in her own family, or was verbally abused by a previous partner.

* She has low self-esteem.

* She has an intense temper, triggered by minor frustrations and arguments.

* Her sense of power or control depends on her partner's acquiescence and his performance per her demands. She feels "in control" only if her partner is totally passive and giving in to all of her preferences and decisions.

* She has rigid expectations or fantasies of marriage, partnership, or men, and will not compromise. She expects him to behave according to her expectations of what her partner should be like; perhaps the way her parents' marriage was, or its opposite. She demands that he change to accommodate her expectations.

* She projects the blame for all relationship difficulties onto her partner. She wouldn't get angry if only he would be who she wants him to be... She wouldn't drink if he didn't make her unhappy... She denies the need for counseling because there's "nothing wrong with her, only with him." She might not want him to get counseling because she's threatened by the threat of an outsider "taking sides" with him.

* Abusers are extremely possessive and jealous. They experience an intense desire to control their mates.

* Abusers often have superficial relationships with other people. Her primary, if not exclusive, relationship is with her husband/boyfriend.

* She may be described as having a dual personality -- she is either sweet or exceptionally cruel and sharp. She is selfish or generous depending on her mood.

* A major characteristic of abusers is their capacity to deceive others. She can be sweet, calm, charming and convincing.

* The mate is usually a symbol. The abuser doesn't relate to her partner as a person in his own right, but as a symbol of a significant other. This is especially true when she's angry. She assumes that he is thinking, feeling, or acting like that significant other -- often her father (or other family member or authority figure).



Seriously, do any of the above sound at all like Kate?

No? Really?

The Gosselin's dysfunctional marriage is being discussed in many psychology and social work classrooms today, and some of their interactions will be described in yet to be published textbooks.

Too close for comfort. I'm quite surprised that a later poster didn't see the validity of some of the later points, esp. expectations of the husband's behaviour

Having said that, I can't go so far as to say that Kate was an abuser because I only saw her on the show.

An open letter to Hailey from momlogic.

http://www.momlogic.com/2009/10/open_letter_hailey_glassman_jon_gosselin.php

I like this -- from my view, it was unbiased.

Knowing what we know now, I have little doubt that the plan (some months ago) was for Jon and Kate to go to therapy ... filmed for the show ... and would come to some sort of reconciliation and the series would end with a trip to Korea. Happily ever after. Kate could continue with her career and Jon could be released from his contract after that. Everyone would be happy, and the Gosselin brand would be intact. I really think that was the plan.

Unfortunately, life got in the way of that plan.

ITA with this It's very possible that the marriage was going downhill a long time before October, but somebody didn't stick with the plan.

Oh yes, Kate has issues. Major issues.

IMO, Jon is sucked out, dry and so damaged he can't quite be completely faulted on his (admittedly) totally disgusting behavior. I do not "like" him. Nor do I want to excuse him totally.

I'm just saying that I have dealt with so many victims who were similarly rudderless, but have eventually come through. With the right help.

But then there are those succubi who are taking advantage. TLC, Hailey and Rabbi Whatsit, I'm naming you. I'm not sure Jon Gosselin has the right help.

Frankly, the whole Gosselin debacle is problematic.

I hang in here because I see legal precedents in the offing, for the protection of the children. Gosselin/Dionne. That is where we are.

And heaven help those poor kids if their dysfunctional parents do get back together and continue to sell their lives on TV.

So sad.

This ITA with.

The first amendment: "The First Amendment to the United States Constitution is part of the Bill of Rights. The amendment prohibits the Congress from making laws "respecting an establishment of religion", prohibiting the free exercise of religion, infringing on the freedom of speech and infringing on the freedom of the press."

And that has to do with the Gosselins putting the children on TV, making them work, and exploiting their childhoods? How?

We are talking Child Labor Laws here, not freedom of speech, the press or religion.

All I want is just boring basic guidelines, that I would hope most sensible people would support. I would hope that any decent parent, even those who want to put a child on TV, would respect these points:

1. Children on "Reality TV" should be protected under some kind of federal Coogan Law so that some portion of their earnings are dedicated to their future. I'm not satisfied that a parent *might* voluntarily put a portion away for their future. Note, Kate has never specified a dollar amount socked away for the kids, nor has either Gosselin parent ever been required to do so under PA law.

2. Children on "Reality TV" should have some limitations put on the filming of their lives. Yes, there will always be people who want their children to work, and being filmed IS working. I'd like to see an absolute maximum of a 4 hour working day (in my dreams) so that educational and play opportunities are maximized. YMMV. Note, within the very loose boundaries of local child labor laws, the Gosselins are still under investigation on this one.. I bet they have filmed more than the PA guidelines on some days. And probably they have done that without work permits . . . PA was asleep at the switch.

3. Respect of privacy for children, remarkably absent from the early Gosselin shows. I'm not dancing around this one. Would you really film your child on the potty and put it on Youtube? If you would, I am very sad for you and your child. The Gosselin potty experienses are out there . . .

Kids do need privacy. and we need to tighten the laws on what is allowed on the internet if people think that this Gosselin is really Ok.

I do not.

To your list, I would have to add that children can film no more than 5 days per week, no exceptions. And must be given at least 2 months off per year. Children need downtime even more than adults do. And their real full-time job is school, so any filming really is like working overtime.

 

[mhsjax]

I didn't say cruel. I just didn't think it was very nice. But as I said, parenting is not always easy, and we make mistakes. Jon has also had great moments with the kids. I never doubted either of them love their children. I just don't think they get that this divorce should be private. But again, I just don't know everything there is to know. I just know what I see. I liked the article that C.Ann posted, and that lawyer seems like a smart person. I wish one of them had hired her.


Although if Kate gets a job for herself, all the more power to her. But the kids need a break right now.

I agree.

 

[3prettyprincesses]

I don't know how many children you have, but I have three. I have said and done things in the moment that I wish I could have undone. But I wasn't on TV when it happened. I wish I could say I never lost my temper with my children but I would be lying. Thanks God I never got the invite to be on TV and have all my bad moments cast out for all to see. Cruel? Yes, I can see that that incident was hurtful to her child. I'm glad the toy was salvaged, and it's too bad it was taped, because it will be shown over and over. But there were also many really good times in their lives on TV..times when Kate's love was clear.
I'm glad I don't have a taped version in my memory box of the times when I lost it. Glad my children are wonderful, productive adults who I care deeply for, and care deeply for me, in spite of any mistakes I made as a young mother.

I agree that there are moments when moms and dads have said or done the wrong thing. What is different with Kate is that she boldy, brazenly puts it all out there for the world to see. Unashamedly and without apology. Heck, she wants to continue with the show despite all the poor moments TLC has shown of her. What does that say about her? IMO it says that she doesn't care what people think of her, she doesn't think she's doing anything wrong. Good grief, nobody put a gun to her head forcing her to be on TV for everyone to see and criticize.

Don't you think Doris, that this kind of life (reality tv) will have a negative impact on the kids when they're older? Won't they be embarassed, angry or bitter when they see some of these episodes? What will they think of Kate (and Jon to some extent) for allowing this? Will they enjoy seeing their parents like (gumgate, coupon episode, walk in the woods, etc.) I'm sorry, but I think Kate is in for a rude awakening when the kids are bit older. I don't think her argument that she did it all for the kids is going to go over well with them. That's my honest opinion.

 

[DVCisME]

I would have to add that children can film no more than 5 days per week, no exceptions. And must be given at least 2 months off per year. Children need downtime even more than adults do. And their real full-time job is school, so any filming really is like working overtime.[/QUOTE]

This is important because Jon said in an interview that this December was the first time they had off from taping. I believe it too. They filmed 5 seasons in 4 years.