Jet Blue Leaves Passengers in Jet for 11 Hours

[snowwite]

You guys have great ideas - escaping - sliding sown escape parachute-
opening emergency doors - does Federal Prison mean anything to you?

As I said Airlines involved - I guess mostly Jet Blue should have cancelled flights or at least not pulled from gate and JFK should have closed airport.

THERE WAS AN ICE STORM LAST NIGHT - I had an inch and a half of ice on my driveway to prove it. People were killed in motor vehicle accidents on Long Island and NYC. Roads were a sheet of ice so imagine what runways were like. Airplanes cannot sit for very long in an ice storm/freezing rain without de-icing or they will not fly. Simple Physics. So the planes had nowhere to go - couldn't fly and no gates available. Maybe they should have driven the plane up the Van Wyck to LaGuardia to get a gate?

Blame the airlines - they are at fault. But also blame JFK/Port Authority and the complicated Air Traffic system. Once you leave the gate that gate belongs to another flight. Basically if there is no gate you wait on the tarmac and it is not kidnapping. Kidnapping is being held against your will and this does not apply - at least in a criminal case. Civil court is another matter and passengers will likely win judgements.

It is also possible that they wanted to get those planes on the ground ASAP as opposed to circling because of icing problems. Of course those planes landing in NYC should have never taken off but I believe the weather was worse than predicted and everyone was caught off-guard.

If you cant leave the plane and you want to then you just went from being a customer to a victim.
If there was not a gate then they should have had an alternate plan like a bus to evacuate the plane.
It was not handled well.
Why stick up for the airlines?

 

[misseulalie]

If you are being held against your will and cannot escape, then yes it is kidnapping.
Plus, I'm guessing that you wouldn't go to prison if you and the other passengers tried to escape, probably just would be held for a few hours. Knowing the situation, I'm guessing the Fed's wouldn't put you in jail (my novice opinion)

JetBlue employees admitted that they could have brought stairs to the planes, but didn't because they kept thinking they could take off...

 

[Karin H-L]

This happened to friends of mine on 2 planes leaving Kona, Hawaii the same day! The 2nd one didn't have A/C and they wouldn't let them get off!

 

[Ambassador]

For the traveler and carrier it is a complicated situation. I may not have boarded that plane at JFK in the first place. Had JetBlue gotten flights in and out, they would have had many happy travelers. The weather did not seem that severe here at the time: not even two inches of snow, but cold air temps, sleet and some freezing rain. Their gamble was a losing proposition. We can only guess that because the weather was not too bad, JetBlue thought they may get their flights in and out, and did not anticipate a nine hour delay.

There are emergency procedures for safely removing passengers from a plane in trouble on the tarmac. Multiple planes is more difficult, and costly; the airlines want to avoid such costs. The availability of gates is complicated scheduling; but most passengers could walk in a door, although these may be secure areas. It is surprising that an airport as large as JFK would not have a remote area for overflow aircraft that could not take-off, where passengers could be bused to the terminal.

 

[Jestocost]

If you are being held against your will and cannot escape, then yes it is kidnapping.
Plus, I'm guessing that you wouldn't go to prison if you and the other passengers tried to escape, probably just would be held for a few hours. Knowing the situation, I'm guessing the Fed's wouldn't put you in jail (my novice opinion)

JetBlue employees admitted that they could have brought stairs to the planes, but didn't because they kept thinking they could take off...

It's thinking like this--reflecting a fundamental misunderstanding of the way the world works--that gets so many people into situations where they are in big trouble, while also seemingly in a position deserving of sympathy.

The airline also screwed up.

The two are not mutually exclusive.

 

[Poconos to Disney]

If I was on that plane that landed and couldn't get off........

I would have gotten about 5-6 male passengers that agreed with me, and pulled open the emergency exit doors, and inflate the slides and slide down. Do you really think 2-3 female flight attendents could have stopped us??? Jet Blue would have a media nightmare on ther hands....and everyone would have sided with the "hostage" passengers in the court of public opinion.

I would have taken my chances with airport security. They could have arrested me or whatever. I would have gotten an attorney an sued the airlines for holding me hostage.

I just said this at work today! They were saying the crew onboard couldn't get their bosses to answer their calls!!! My reaction was that I would've found a way to get those slides out!!! At least they would be off the plane!!! What's the worse thing that would happen to them, they'd be asked to get off the flight!!!

 

[NotUrsula]

What's the worse thing that would happen to them, they'd be asked to get off the flight!!!

More like Federal charges of Interfering with a Flight Crew. It's a felony, and even if they don't try to put you in jail they can still choose to fine you up to $25K.

 

[Skuba2]

The idea is ridiculous that you can just slide off of a plane on a tarmac and hike it back to the airport. I find it kind of funny in a stupid kind of way myself. Reminds me of frogger---trying to avoid airplanes with limited visibility not to mention engine noise/exhaust not to mention crew vehicles not to mention other passengers scurrying across the tarmac. Oh yeah----to top it all off---lets coat everything in ICE!!! Sorry---I know it is an impossible situation that I wouldn't wish on anyone. Now, you have to admit you were a lot luckier than the hordes of people trapped on the highway in PA for almost 24 hours!!! They didn't have toilets. They didn't have TV. They didn't have warmth.

Like the other poster said, people died Wednesday in NY and NJ--even in CT. My roof looked like a plachinko (sp?)machine. The little ice pellets were bouncing off my roof all day long. I have about 3 inches of packed ice pellets---looks like snow but I didn't see one flake all day--only pellets. You can now walk ON it without sinking in. If you didn't shovel the day it fell--forget it. It is solid.

I may be flamed--fine--go for it. But, I've heard the news and I am a reasonably intelligent person. I know the perils of booking travel in the winter. We were suppose to get snow and/or rain--not ice all day. Ten hours is a crazy amount of time to be stuck on a plane to nowhere. But in the great cosmos, I bet you I could find about 100 or so people who while sitting in a feezing car in PA would have gladly traded places with you on that day. An even better bet---you wouldn't have traded.

DG

 

[safetymom]

Things needed to be handled differently and hopefully there will be a passengers bill of rights. I do think if that happens you will see higher prices.

I know when I was stuck on the Jet Blue plane at least we had the TV to pass the time. You can walk up and down the aisle so no need to worry about blood clots for sitting that long.

It isn't fun to be stuck like that but I wouldn't want to have been stuck on the interstate like those people were.

I just don't understand sometimes when traveling by car why people insist on driving when they should have stayed home?????

 

[seashoreCM]

You mean you would really rather walk all the way across the icy tarmac back to the terminal? What if you had to forfeit your fare if and when alighting, namely they don't let you get back in?

Somehow I can't think of things that people would absolutely positively have to do that required that they get off.

But one thing that the passenger has a God given right to is rest room facilities. The airline cannot hold the passenger responsible if he soiled the plane (not the beverage cart*) rather than his clothes. Now I suppose they guys could use the air sickness bags while the gals got to use the rest rooms.

Travel tips:
http://members.aol.com/ajaynejr/travel2.htm#Hot3

*You will have to do the homework on Google on the subject of air rage.
*Who said, "Hold your wee for a Wii" and what happened?

 

[LadyShiva]

I also want to point out that the JetBlue planes had to open their doors every so often (according to the MSNBC article) to get fresh air. There was also a honeymooner couple that when they were finally let off the plane, they just gave up and went home.

And for the people who believe the airlines should have free rein, I'd like my taxes that go to the FAA back, please. Evidently, I'm not supposed to get any rights from the agency that supposedly controls the airlines.

At some point, the FAA at that airport should have stepped in for the people trapped on those planes. The air traffic controllers knew how long those planes had been sitting on the tarmac (referring to the infamous "list" to take off and losing your "place"-->hogwash). Letting a business (that wants to make a profit) control a situation like that is inhumane. Yes, the FAA is overworked, has an aging IT net, blah blah blah... That is called passing the buck. The human decision was made to let the planes sit on the tarmac hoping for better weather until (surprise surprise) the people couldn't get to safety because the conditions worsened. The wheels on the planes froze to the ground, and the buses couldn't get out to the planes.

We have rules to control our food quality, speed limits for our cars, and our day care for our children... How is it we allow a business to make their own rules when it comes to flying? We regulate the parts that go IN the plane and the amount of hours the flight crew can work; why can't we regulate how long the customers can be held on those planes before and after the trip? Why is it this industry gets a free pass when they've been shown multiple times to be unable to self-regulate???

Brandie

 

[jodifla]

I also want to point out that the JetBlue planes had to open their doors every so often (according to the MSNBC article) to get fresh air. There was also a honeymooner couple that when they were finally let off the plane, they just gave up and went home.

And for the people who believe the airlines should have free rein, I'd like my taxes that go to the FAA back, please. Evidently, I'm not supposed to get any rights from the agency that supposedly controls the airlines.

At some point, the FAA at that airport should have stepped in for the people trapped on those planes. The air traffic controllers knew how long those planes had been sitting on the tarmac (referring to the infamous "list" to take off and losing your "place"-->hogwash). Letting a business (that wants to make a profit) control a situation like that is inhumane. Yes, the FAA is overworked, has an aging IT net, blah blah blah... That is called passing the buck. The human decision was made to let the planes sit on the tarmac hoping for better weather until (surprise surprise) the people couldn't get to safety because the conditions worsened. The wheels on the planes froze to the ground, and the buses couldn't get out to the planes.

We have rules to control our food quality, speed limits for our cars, and our day care for our children... How is it we allow a business to make their own rules when it comes to flying? We regulate the parts that go IN the plane and the amount of hours the flight crew can work; why can't we regulate how long the customers can be held on those planes before and after the trip? Why is it this industry gets a free pass when they've been shown multiple times to be unable to self-regulate???

Brandie

Exactly! We need the passengers bill of rights now, and a little jail time for the Jet Blue personel who took passengers hostage on the plane.

 

[boomhauer]

I was stuck on a Southwest plane for about 90 minutes waiting to take off. I was ready to pop the exit open and jump.

9 hours - Can't even fathom.

What I can't understand is how the people remained calm and didn't demand to be released from the plane. After 2 hours, I would have said enough is enough, LET ME OFF!!! I'd have gone to another airline or gone the following day.

 

[LadyShiva]

The idea is ridiculous that you can just slide off of a plane on a tarmac and hike it back to the airport. I find it kind of funny in a stupid kind of way myself. Reminds me of frogger---trying to avoid airplanes with limited visibility not to mention engine noise/exhaust not to mention crew vehicles not to mention other passengers scurrying across the tarmac. Oh yeah----to top it all off---lets coat everything in ICE!!! Sorry---I know it is an impossible situation that I wouldn't wish on anyone. Now, you have to admit you were a lot luckier than the hordes of people trapped on the highway in PA for almost 24 hours!!! They didn't have toilets. They didn't have TV. They didn't have warmth.

Like the other poster said, people died Wednesday in NY and NJ--even in CT. My roof looked like a plachinko (sp?)machine. The little ice pellets were bouncing off my roof all day long. I have about 3 inches of packed ice pellets---looks like snow but I didn't see one flake all day--only pellets. You can now walk ON it without sinking in. If you didn't shovel the day it fell--forget it. It is solid.

I may be flamed--fine--go for it. But, I've heard the news and I am a reasonably intelligent person. I know the perils of booking travel in the winter. We were suppose to get snow and/or rain--not ice all day. Ten hours is a crazy amount of time to be stuck on a plane to nowhere. But in the great cosmos, I bet you I could find about 100 or so people who while sitting in a feezing car in PA would have gladly traded places with you on that day. An even better bet---you wouldn't have traded.

DG

I'm sorry, but your reasoning seems to me to be excusing the human decisions by the FAA and the airline at that airport. As in, "Well, it could have been worse; at least these people weren't on FIRE. Then they could have COMPLAINED!"

Uh, no, the situation was human determined by officials. Therefore, it was avoidable. When the FAA cracked down on the flights leaving due to the ice on the runway, they could have ordered the planes returned to the gate (see MSNBC article). The officials could have diverted planes away from their airport. They chose not to.

Yeah, it was also horrible to get stuck on a highway. It also stunk to have your roof leak. Unfortunately, I don't see the correlation between cars, houses, and FAA/JetBlue decisions.

And I disagree slightly with the previous poster jodifla. I think the FAA officials and the JetBlue decision makers at this airport should be fired, not jailed. They showed a lack of intelligent decision-making that was indifferent to human suffering.

Oh, and to the poster who said I should carry 2 days worth of meds... Can we get 2 days worth of food, drink, and sewage on the plane? I'd appreciate that. So would my child and the diabetics on the plane. To offload the responsibility of reasonable care on the customers shows blatant indifference by the airline industry.

I see the difficulty in keeping track of flight plans. I just don't agree that flight plans supercede visual and radar tracking of flights done in real-time, by traffic controllers. Ten flights were lost on a -tarmac- that all belonged to one company. Very bogus reasoning to me to state paperwork superceded the responsibility of the airline to keep those people safe.

Brandie

 

[Edd]

The FAA, air traffic controllers, is not in control of placement of aircraft on the tarmac. Their responsibility is the safe movement of aircraft on the ground and in the air. The individual airline companies are responsibible for where the aircraft are placed and who remains aboard. FAA would only have control when the aircraft is moved or in the process of being moved. They have no idea how many are aboard, whether it is any empty or full plane. At many big airports responsibilty of the aircraft goes to the airline company when it enters the bounds of the airline company: the parking area.

 

[LadyShiva]

The FAA, air traffic controllers, is not in control of placement of aircraft on the tarmac. Their responsibility is the safe movement of aircraft on the ground and in the air. The individual airline companies are responsibible for where the aircraft are placed and who remains aboard. FAA would only have control when the aircraft is moved or in the process of being moved. They have no idea how many are aboard, whether it is any empty or full plane. At many big airports responsibilty of the aircraft goes to the airline company when it enters the bounds of the airline company: the parking area.

Is your opinion this is correct reasoning?

You state "safe movement of the aircraft on the ground." I think the argument could be made in this situation that planes frozen to the tarmac would reasonably prevent "safe movement of aircraft on the ground." FAA also would have control when the aircraft is being moved... Right?

I do not mean to assign responsibility for the number of people in the plane, whether it is empty or full. Is it Homeland Security that tracks the people in the planes? I need to go look up whether FAA was swallowed by Homeland Security.

I know you state "many big airports"... Denver (the city) got stiffed for hundreds of millions of dollars by United for gate rental. DIA is actually owned by Denver. However, United escaped their liability for the disastrous baggage handling system and the rent by declaring bankruptcy and the city was left holding all of United's monetary responsibilities--and yet was unable to sell Frontier Airlines the gates United wasn't paying for. Just a local note, not tied to this problem except tangentially.

Brandie

 

[LadyShiva]

http://www.faa.gov/about/mission/activities/

I see nothing on that page that precludes the FAA from stating in the JetBlue incident that the planes waiting on the tarmac should be evacuated (either via bus or actually taking off) prior to new planes' landing. In fact, I think this point directly shows their involvement in the human decisions that happened the other day:

"Airspace and Air Traffic Management
The safe and efficient use of navigable airspace is one of our primary objectives. We operate a network of airport towers, air route traffic control centers, and flight service stations. We develop air traffic rules, assign the use of airspace, and control air traffic. "

And no, the FAA wasn't swallowed by Homeland Security. The FAA wouldn't maintain flight rosters. However, I don't care if only the flight crew was on a plane; it isn't acceptable to leave a plane on the tarmac for enough time that it froze to the pavement!

Brandie

 

[Edd]

Retired from Air Traffic Control (23 years Tower experience, 1961 - 1984, U.S. Air Force, JAX, MIA, TPA and retired MCO). No, I did not go on strike when Reagan fired them. I stayed on and worked.

The Tarmac where an airplane would usually be parked normally is under control of the airline. For an airplane to move into space, taxiing space, controlled by the tower (FAA) the airline or airplane would have to get permission from the tower who is in charge of ground movement.

I am sure FAA will be working with the airlines to get things straightened out, but I assume the airports were working under emergency conditions and so there were planes that did not get unloaded satisfactory. What do you think happened 9/11/01 when FAA ordered all aircraft out of the air. How many people do you think sat in airplanes for many hours before they were deplaned.

I didn't know rubber can freeze to pavement. The plane must have been in an area designated as under airline control and definitely wasn't moving. That statement to me sounds like you picked it up from the news media, which is known for exaggeration at times. Guess that comes from living in Florida to long.

 

[LadyShiva]

Retired from Air Traffic Control (23 years Tower experience, 1961 - 1984, U.S. Air Force, JAX, MIA, TPA and retired MCO). No, I did not go on strike when Reagan fired them. I stayed on and worked.

The Tarmac where an airplane would usually be parked normally is under control of the airline. For an airplane to move into space, taxiing space, controlled by the tower (FAA) the airline or airplane would have to get permission from the tower who is in charge of ground movement.

*nod* I worked with a retired air traffic controller who had a second career in IT... I'll bet you're glad to be out, from what he said about the working conditions! And what I read in the paper about how the DIA air traffic controllers are being treated... woo-wee...!

But, back on topic, just because FAA does not currently control these situations does not mean their mandate says they don't. With as overworked as the air traffic controllers are (another problem, in my opinion, that should be dealt with), they control the "list" of planes to take off, not the responsibility of the planes taking off.

What do you think?

Brandie

 

[LadyShiva]

Retired from Air Traffic Control (23 years Tower experience, 1961 - 1984, U.S. Air Force, JAX, MIA, TPA and retired MCO). No, I did not go on strike when Reagan fired them. I stayed on and worked.

The Tarmac where an airplane would usually be parked normally is under control of the airline. For an airplane to move into space, taxiing space, controlled by the tower (FAA) the airline or airplane would have to get permission from the tower who is in charge of ground movement.

I am sure FAA will be working with the airlines to get things straightened out, but I assume the airports were working under emergency conditions and so there were planes that did not get unloaded satisfactory. What do you think happened 9/11/01 when FAA ordered all aircraft out of the air. How many people do you think sat in airplanes for many hours before they were deplaned.

I didn't know rubber can freeze to pavement. The plane must have been in an area designated as under airline control and definitely wasn't moving. That statement to me sounds like you picked it up from the news media, which is known for exaggeration at times. Guess that comes from living in Florida to long.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/552236/posts

For 9/11, it looks like it was a different situation. Medicine, water, and lavatory servicing were provided. That was not the situation for JetBlue the other day.

Rubber covered in an inch and a half of ice might have a problem moving... But then, I'm in Denver, so this weather situation hits closer to home for me, with my 9 weeks straight of weekly blizzards and we haven't hit the "snowy" month! The FAA tightened restrictions to fly out due to the ice on the pavement, and buses and mechanical equipment weren't able to get to the plane. Now, my beef with that comes with the fact JetBlue kept the planes ready to take off just in case the weather cleared... *shaking my head* As the JetBlue CEO said, that's just unacceptable.

Brandie