Jesus wasn't resurrected

[LuvDuke]

I won't get into them on the board. I don't want to stir up controvery on the board.. They are not well thought of by the jewish community... To be clear I am not speaking of all messianic Jewish groups,but Jews for Jesus specifically...If you want details I can PM you.

My last encounter with them was nearly 20 years ago. So I can't speak to what's happened since then. They were always off beat but didn't seem particularly dangerous.

A lot can happen in 20 years.

 

[JennyMominRI]

My last encounter with them was nearly 20 years ago. So I can't speak to what's happened since then. They were always off beat but didn't seem particularly dangerous.

A lot can happen in 20 years.

I would not call them dangerous..They arent out to cause physical harm or anything..They are just deceptive and underhaned and IMO highly unethical in their tactics.

 

[Fitswimmer]

Who is taking over God's job? Not me. I am only saying what the Bible teaches. That is why Jesus gave us the great commission so that the gospel can be proclaimed to the ends of the earth. So that every people group has teh opportunity to hear and respond to the gospel.

SO, if a loved one is a professing aithest or agnostic, do you just say "live and let live?" and not try to share the gospel with them? How about if you have children and they depart from the Christian faith are you going to just feel that they should just chose the path that is right for them?



I will ask you the same question: Does everyone get to heaven? Is the road narrow or broad?

I have loved ones that are apathetic towards religion and some that are downright hostile because they've encountered attitudes like yours. People who judge them, condemn them to fire for eternity without knowing the first thing about their lives and what brought them to the place they are in. Sadly, no matter how many kind and compassionate people of faith they have met, ONE encounter with someone like you turned them off forever. All I can do is pray for them, and I do that. I also pray for those that drove them away from faith, because I feel they need prayer even more.

I don't know who gets to heaven. As I have said repeatedly, I AM NOT GOD. GOD decides and if GOD wants to He can say that everybody or nobody gets into heaven regardless of what is in the Bible. The God that I worship is omnipotent and is not constrained by a book, no matter how noble the writings are in that book. The book is NOT bigger than God. The Bible is an extremely important part of my faith, I've read it through many times and I read sections of it that I'm particularly fond of over and over. It helps me to understand my faith better and hopefully live my life better. It is a tool, that I believe was left to us to help us. However, when we get so constrained by the words in it that we lose sight of the majesty of it's inspiration, we're missing the real point of it all. The Bible isn't the end of the story, the Bible is designed to lead us to the end of the story-which is God.

 

[LuvDuke]

I would not call them dangerous..They arent out to cause physical harm or anything..They are just deceptive and underhaned and IMO highly unethical in their tactics.

Most religious nutjobs are. And Israel certainly seemed to have its fair share of those.

 

[DISUNC]

I really can't wait to see who gets post 666

 

[RoyalCanadian]

Are Jews waiting for the Messiah, ala the Left Behind series, or is that something only Christians believe?

It is a small minority of Christians worldwide who believe in the end-times as anything even resembling the "Left Behind" series. This list certainly does not include Roman Catholics, Lutherans, Church of England/Anglican/Episcopal, Presbyterian, Methodist, Mennonite, and Orthodox to name but a few. There are many, many biblical scholars who are backed up by very strong academic credentials who will even point out that the "Left Behind" series has no basis in biblical theology.

 

[RoyalCanadian]

Oh for crying out loud. I already bought a ham and ordered a pastierra Napolitana.

There might still be hope since you haven't bought the butter lamb yet.

 

[RoyalCanadian]

MMmmmmmm! Cheese....!!!

I have always preferred to think Christ's blessing was for all dairy workers, in general -- not just the cheesemakers.

 

[ead79]

It is a small minority of Christians worldwide who believe in the end-times as anything even resembling the "Left Behind" series. This list certainly does not include Roman Catholics, Lutherans, Church of England/Anglican/Episcopal, Presbyterian, Methodist, Mennonite, and Orthodox to name but a few. There are many, many biblical scholars who are backed up by very strong academic credentials who will even point out that the "Left Behind" series has no basis in biblical theology.

I'm not saying that I think that the Left Behind series is dead-on in its interpretation of Revelation, but I don't see how one could say that it has absolutely no basis in Biblical theology. Having read Revelation, I think that at least some, if not a good portion, of the passages in the books *could* (not necessarily but it's possible) happen the way the books depict. To be fair, there are numerous Biblical scholars with excellent credentials who think that the Left Behind series is at least relevant to gaining a better understanding of Revelation and the way it might happen. Not that I think it's a good idea to put any series of books in too high a place of respect relative to the Bible.

 

[magicmato]

It is a small minority of Christians worldwide who believe in the end-times as anything even resembling the "Left Behind" series. This list certainly does not include Roman Catholics, Lutherans, Church of England/Anglican/Episcopal, Presbyterian, Methodist, Mennonite, and Orthodox to name but a few. There are many, many biblical scholars who are backed up by very strong academic credentials who will even point out that the "Left Behind" series has no basis in biblical theology.

That is great to know. Because I read many of those books and it really freaks me out to think that there are people out there who actually WANT that to happen, let alone believe it will.

 

[RoyalCanadian]

I'm saving seats at the bar in Purgatory.

Sorry LuvDuke -- Martin Luther closed Purgatory for refurb a long time ago. Would you care for a non-smoking seat in Limbo?

 

[Amity 3]

Jenny, out of curiosity have you (do you) taken Hebrew lessons? the Jewish girls I dated only knew enough to get by.

I've found it to be an incredibly tough language to learn, but I had seven years of French and can only read and understand it spoken - I can't speak it to save my life.

 

[JennyMominRI]

Jenny, out of curiosity have you (do you) taken Hebrew lessons? the Jewish girls I dated only knew enough to get by.

I've found it to be an incredibly tough language to learn, but I had seven years of French and can only read and understand it spoken - I can't speak it to save my life.

Not yet,but I fully intend to learn Hebrew..I can pick out quite a bit here and there through.. Most services at the Shul contain a lot of Hebrew. Most of the people I go to shul with speak it

 

[RoyalCanadian]

I'm not saying that I think that the Left Behind series is dead-on in its interpretation of Revelation, but I don't see how one could say that it has absolutely no basis in Biblical theology. Having read Revelation, I think that at least some, if not a good portion, of the passages in the books *could* (not necessarily but it's possible) happen the way the books depict. To be fair, there are numerous Biblical scholars with excellent credentials who think that the Left Behind series is at least relevant to gaining a better understanding of Revelation and the way it might happen. Not that I think it's a good idea to put any series of books in too high a place of respect relative to the Bible.

The problem with the "Left Behind" series is not that it may have inspired readers to give the Book of Revelation a second look, but that the concept of the pre-tribulation rapture as embraced by Tim LaHaye and associates goes back to a Scottish girl by the name of Margaret MacDonald in 1830. This pre-tribulation rapture is completely counter to all other doctrines held by Christians for 18 centuries and still held by a majority of Christians to this day.

 

[ead79]

The problem with the "Left Behind" series is not that it may have inspired readers to give the Book of Revelation a second look, but that the concept of the pre-tribulation rapture as embraced by Tim LaHaye and associates goes back to a Scottish girl by the name of Margaret MacDonald in 1830. This pre-tribulation rapture is completely counter to all other doctrines held by Christians for 18 centuries and still held by a majority of Christians to this day.

I've got to disagree with you about the concept of a pre-tribulation rapture. I don't believe that it's 100% clear in Scripture as to when the rapture will occur, but I do believe that a pre-tribulation rapture is certainly possible. For my own personal beliefs, I do subscribe to the pre-tribulation rapture concept based on Revelation 3:10. It's not something I am dogmatic about though, since I think it's open to interpretation. And of course it's not one of the essential doctrines of the faith. Thanks for your input!

 

[Saxsoon]

The concept of the rapture I believe came from the Latin version of the Bible, at least the word. It uses rapere which in Latin means to snatch up or pick up. It is a stretch but who knows.

Royal, what do most Christians subscribe to when it comes to the Tribulation.

Is it that no rapture occurs, and the Christians will ride it out with the rest?

 

[RoyalCanadian]

I've got to disagree with you about the concept of a pre-tribulation rapture. I don't believe that it's 100% clear in Scripture as to when the rapture will occur, but I do believe that a pre-tribulation rapture is certainly possible. For my own personal beliefs, I do subscribe to the pre-tribulation rapture concept based on Revelation 3:10. It's not something I am dogmatic about though, since I think it's open to interpretation. And of course it's not one of the essential doctrines of the faith. Thanks for your input!

While it might not be an essential doctrine of faith the concept of a secret return of Christ to "beam up" the Christians before the tribulation is counter to biblical theology.

My other problem with this "Johnny come lately" mis-interpretation of the Book of Revelation is the concept that, for some reason, the Christians who are around at the end time will get a free pass into heaven and escape the nasty bits. None of the apostles who went to their deaths professing the Risen Christ were allowed the Fast Pass option -- they had to experience the tribulation and I think the Bible is fairly clear on the fact that Miss MacDonald and Mr. LaHaye are mistaken.

The Southern Baptist seminaries and the Assemblies of God folks would also place themselves in the same "rapture camps" as the Roman Catholics, Lutherans, Anglicans, Presbyterians, Methodists and Orthodox.

 

[RoyalCanadian]

Royal, what do most Christians subscribe to when it comes to the Tribulation.

Is it that no rapture occurs, and the Christians will ride it out with the rest?

It certainly isn't that no rapture will occur. The Bible is clear on the fact that Christians will be taken up. However, it was not until Mary Macdonald had her own revelation in 1830 that any Christian had suggested that Christians would escape the end times with something akin to the Monopoly Chance card that sends one directly to Boardwalk. For 18 centuries the theology was that Christians would ride out the tribulation with everyone else.

There is just something arrogant about Tim Lahaye's book because it suggests that the Book of Revelation can only possibly be understood from a 21st century western point-of-view. John the Evangelist would be surprised to learn this -- he was quite clear that the book could only be understood from an Asia Minor at the end of the 1st Century A.D. point-of-view.

 

[Amity 3]

what happens to Christian's bodies after they all drop dead at the rapture?

 

[ead79]

While it might not be an essential doctrine of faith the concept of a secret return of Christ to "beam up" the Christians before the tribulation is counter to biblical theology.

My other problem with this "Johnny come lately" mis-interpretation of the Book of Revelation is the concept that, for some reason, the Christians who are around at the end time will get a free pass into heaven and escape the nasty bits. None of the apostles who went to their deaths professing the Risen Christ were allowed the Fast Pass option -- they had to experience the tribulation and I think the Bible is fairly clear on the fact that Miss MacDonald and Mr. LaHaye are mistaken.

The Southern Baptist seminaries and the Assemblies of God folks would also place themselves in the same "rapture camps" as the Roman Catholics, Lutherans, Anglicans, Presbyterians, Methodists and Orthodox.

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

I don't see it as a "free pass" for Christians to avoid the ugly parts of the tribulation. After all, as you mentioned, many believers gave their lives for Christ and were heavily persecuted. But at the same time, plenty of believers die natural deaths and don't have to go through terrible persecution, so I don't think God looks at it as a FastPass. We just interpret the verses differently, which is perfectly OK. After all, discussing Biblical theology with those who believe differently helps grow my understanding and see new perspectives.

Also, I don't believe that Christ comes at the rapture--only at the Second Coming of Christ. I believe that the rapture happens before the Second Coming.

I will say that many in my denomination do subscribe to the pre-trib concept, though my pastor does not (he believes in mid-trib). But I tend to like to evaluate things for myself rather than just based on my denomination. Also, I don't base it on a "Johnny come lately" interpretation, but rather on verses in Scripture including the one I mentioned in Revelation. Thanks again for the dialogue! I've gotta head to bed now, but I'll check back in tomorrow.